Al Capone's decina ~1928

[eboli]

Btw does anyones have any type of list of Chicago people who possibly accompanied Capone during the Atlantic City conference? I think i only have Guzik and possibly one of the Fischettis. He mustve brought a huge army with him

Guzik was there and so were Frankie Rio and Nitti. Capone brought along Moe Annenberg too. Accardo was present and allegedly amused Lansky by getting a tattoo on the boardwalk. Capone did not approve.

[Villain]

Btw does anyones have any type of list of Chicago people who possibly accompanied Capone during the Atlantic City conference? I think i only have Guzik and possibly one of the Fischettis. He mustve brought a huge army with him

Guzik was there and so were Frankie Rio and Nitti. Capone brought along Moe Annenberg too. Accardo was present and allegedly amused Lansky by getting a tattoo on the boardwalk. Capone did not approve.

Thanks for the info.

Also if Capone was a capo by 1930, then that means the Chi crowd still didnt have any type of CN or Camorra hierarchy. It is possible that they received it after the murder of Masseria. Shortly after that Nitto went to jail, same as Capone, and on top of that when Nitto got out of jail he quickly survived a assassination attempt. So that leaves Ricca, Rio and Campagna to takeover the organization. I believe that Nitto became the number two guy under Ricca after Rios death in 1935.

[eboli]

Also if Capone was a capo by 1930, then that means the Chi crowd still didnt have any type of CN or Camorra hierarchy. It is possible that they received it after the murder of Masseria. Shortly after that Nitto went to jail, same as Capone, and on top of that when Nitto got out of jail he quickly survived a assassination attempt. So that leaves Ricca, Rio and Campagna to takeover the organization. I believe that Nitto became the number two guy under Ricca after Rios death in 1935.

I don't know a lot on early Chicago but wasn't Rio pushed to the sidelines after Capone went to jail? I have the impression a lot of people didn't like him because he was one of Capone's golden boys and of course he had serious health issues during the last couple of years in his life. I believe Nitti was boss initially and then Ricca's influence continued to grow until he was de facto boss and Nitti was a figurehead who was subservient to him in later years. Ricca had a lot of big money makers who were loyal to him like Campagna, Capezio and Accardo and all of them seem to be rising fast in the organization in the late 30's which is when I suspect Ricca wrestled the power away from Nitti. Also, RIcca had deep ties with NY and I doubt Nitti wanted to fuck with that.

[Villain]

Also if Capone was a capo by 1930, then that means the Chi crowd still didnt have any type of CN or Camorra hierarchy. It is possible that they received it after the murder of Masseria. Shortly after that Nitto went to jail, same as Capone, and on top of that when Nitto got out of jail he quickly survived a assassination attempt. So that leaves Ricca, Rio and Campagna to takeover the organization. I believe that Nitto became the number two guy under Ricca after Rios death in 1935.

I don't know a lot on early Chicago but wasn't Rio pushed to the sidelines after Capone went to jail? I have the impression a lot of people didn't like him because he was one of Capone's golden boys and of course he had serious health issues during the last couple of years in his life. I believe Nitti was boss initially and then Ricca's influence continued to grow until he was de facto boss and Nitti was a figurehead who was subservient to him in later years. Ricca had a lot of big money makers who were loyal to him like Campagna, Capezio and Accardo and all of them seem to be rising fast in the organization in the late 30's which is when I suspect Ricca wrestled the power away from Nitti. Also, RIcca had deep ties with NY and I doubt Nitti wanted to fuck with that.

Thats a good thinking but still I believe that after Capone went to jail and Nitto got shot and went to hospital and on top of that he had the whole media around him, the guys who possibly took the acting positions were Ricca as the boss and Rio as his number two guy. Yeah I also remember reading regarding Rio allegedly being hated by the rest of the fellas but still Bioffs and Browns statements says otherwise such as the Christmas Eve 1934 alleged meeting between Rio, Nitto, Ricca, Campagna, Gioe and D'Andrea. You see, according to Willie Bioff or George Brown, Rio was almost present on every important meeting regarding the projectionists unions and he was also the guy who took the responsibility to take care of the problems aka the relay man. For example Maloy was killed on February 4, 1935 and Rio died on February 23 so I dont believe that he was not very active during his last years.

Who knows, maybe Nitto was really the next in line and maybe thats why he was shot by those detectives but still there are a lot of unexplained situations. I think that the so-called rumour regarding Nitto being Capone's successor was spread by one attorney general i think who gave his opinion that Nitto was going to takeover the Mob after his release from prison. There are also other statements from Bioff or Browne such as Nitto having the last word on the table but that doesnt mean anything since he could've only vouched for these guys, a mistake which later obviously pushed him to commit suicide.

Also your statement regarding Nitto being subservient to Ricca in later years is true since in 1939, just before being sent to prison, Giancana was made and was sponsored by Nitto and Campagna. Usually in the Mob you need to have one or two top guys to sponsor you so this means that someone else was the boss which probably was Ricca who gave the ok and blessing. For me personally this is the main proof that Ricca was the boss.

[eboli]

Who knows, maybe Nitto was really the next in line and maybe thats why he was shot by those detectives but still there are a lot of unexplained situations. I think that the so-called rumour regarding Nitto being Capone's successor was spread by one attorney general i think who gave his opinion that Nitto was going to takeover the Mob after his release from prison. There are also other statements from Bioff or Browne such as Nitto having the last word on the table but that doesnt mean anything since he could've only vouched for these guys, a mistake which later obviously pushed him to commit suicide.

Wasn't Nitti stepping in as acting boss when Al was out of town before his incarceration? If that's the case I can see why authorities and journalists made the assumption he was Capone's successor. On the other hand I've read Ricca was the guy Chicago used to sent as envoy to New York when important business had to be discussed or a major favor to be asked/returned.

[Villain]

Who knows, maybe Nitto was really the next in line and maybe thats why he was shot by those detectives but still there are a lot of unexplained situations. I think that the so-called rumour regarding Nitto being Capone's successor was spread by one attorney general i think who gave his opinion that Nitto was going to takeover the Mob after his release from prison. There are also other statements from Bioff or Browne such as Nitto having the last word on the table but that doesnt mean anything since he could've only vouched for these guys, a mistake which later obviously pushed him to commit suicide.

Wasn't Nitti stepping in as acting boss when Al was out of town before his incarceration? If that's the case I can see why authorities and journalists made the assumption he was Capone's successor. On the other hand I've read Ricca was the guy Chicago used to sent as envoy to New York when important business had to be discussed or a major favor to be asked/returned.

We can only speculate on what was going on before 1930 or 1931, meaning regarding the organizational structure and as I said previously that it is possible before Masserias murder, the Capone crowd didnt have any kind of CN hierarchy but instead they had a capo which was Capone and the rest were "soldiers" and it is possible that he first "answered" to Masseria or Lombardo and later to someone else such as Maranzano or maybe to none. We also have many conflicting infos from that period such as Nitto's alleged headquarters a speakeasy at 901 S. Halsted St, which in fact was also Riccas place. Or one article from the 1930s, in which the Chicago press put out a story to the effect that both Nitto and Ricca had been placed under police surveillance as leaders of the revived Camorra to control all rackets in Chicago.

So again lets say that Nitto should've taken Capones position as boss...at the beginning he was never mentioned by Gentile or anyone else but instead he mentioned Ricca as Capones close associate...second, Nitto went to jail before Capone and they found some of the Outfits books in his other office in the Loop area, another evidence which I believe gives us a picture that he wasnt the boss since Al never kept books of any kind. Third when Nitto came out of prison, he wasnt on parole but still he was shortly after that almost killed and again took a step back for some time until he recovered. So I believe that this is the exact time period when Ricca took a step up, after all he was arrested with Loverde in 1930 while going to NY and we have also a picture of him with Luciano and Lansky in 1932. So yeah youre again right regarding Ricca being the main connection to NY at the time and as a matter of fact, years later Tommy Eboli referred to Ricca the same as he referred to Vito Genovese.

[Ed]

Los Angeles Crime Family member-informant Salvatore Piscopo indicated that Paul RIcca was the actual boss of Chicago, at least as of the mid 1930s. Piscopo was tight with Johnny Roselli and worked with him in the extortion of the movie industry so he was likely in a position to furnish accurate info. But like everyone else has said, the post-Capone period is tricky to pin down.

[eboli]

We can only speculate on what was going on before 1930 or 1931, meaning regarding the organizational structure and as I said previously that it is possible before Masserias murder, the Capone crowd didnt have any kind of CN hierarchy but instead they had a capo which was Capone and the rest were "soldiers" and it is possible that he first "answered" to Masseria or Lombardo and later to someone else such as Maranzano or maybe to none. We also have many conflicting infos from that period such as Nitto's alleged headquarters a speakeasy at 901 S. Halsted St, which in fact was also Riccas place. Or one article from the 1930s, in which the Chicago press put out a story to the effect that both Nitto and Ricca had been placed under police surveillance as leaders of the revived Camorra to control all rackets in Chicago.

So again lets say that Nitto should've taken Capones position as boss...at the beginning he was never mentioned by Gentile or anyone else but instead he mentioned Ricca as Capones close associate...second, Nitto went to jail before Capone and they found some of the Outfits books in his other office in the Loop area, another evidence which I believe gives us a picture that he wasnt the boss since Al never kept books of any kind. Third when Nitto came out of prison, he wasnt on parole but still he was shortly after that almost killed and again took a step back for some time until he recovered. So I believe that this is the exact time period when Ricca took a step up, after all he was arrested with Loverde in 1930 while going to NY and we have also a picture of him with Luciano and Lansky in 1932. So yeah youre again right regarding Ricca being the main connection to NY at the time and as a matter of fact, years later Tommy Eboli referred to Ricca the same as he referred to Vito Genovese.

Yeah, that seems about right. That makes a lot of sense with Ricca stepping up after Nitti's setbacks and it ties well with the timeline of Nitti's shooting, Rio's death, the whole projectionist's union racket and Ricca's trips to NYC. I doubt we will ever find out the full picture, because there's a lot conflicting info out there. In some of the Mary Ferrell documents you even have a CI report that Campagna was Nitti's second in command after Capone went away and even succeeded him for a few months before Ricca took the reins circa '43.

[Frank]

We can only speculate on what was going on before 1930 or 1931, meaning regarding the organizational structure and as I said previously that it is possible before Masserias murder, the Capone crowd didnt have any kind of CN hierarchy but instead they had a capo which was Capone and the rest were "soldiers" and it is possible that he first "answered" to Masseria or Lombardo and later to someone else such as Maranzano or maybe to none. We also have many conflicting infos from that period such as Nitto's alleged headquarters a speakeasy at 901 S. Halsted St, which in fact was also Riccas place. Or one article from the 1930s, in which the Chicago press put out a story to the effect that both Nitto and Ricca had been placed under police surveillance as leaders of the revived Camorra to control all rackets in Chicago.

So again lets say that Nitto should've taken Capones position as boss...at the beginning he was never mentioned by Gentile or anyone else but instead he mentioned Ricca as Capones close associate...second, Nitto went to jail before Capone and they found some of the Outfits books in his other office in the Loop area, another evidence which I believe gives us a picture that he wasnt the boss since Al never kept books of any kind. Third when Nitto came out of prison, he wasnt on parole but still he was shortly after that almost killed and again took a step back for some time until he recovered. So I believe that this is the exact time period when Ricca took a step up, after all he was arrested with Loverde in 1930 while going to NY and we have also a picture of him with Luciano and Lansky in 1932. So yeah youre again right regarding Ricca being the main connection to NY at the time and as a matter of fact, years later Tommy Eboli referred to Ricca the same as he referred to Vito Genovese.

Yeah, that seems about right. That makes a lot of sense with Ricca stepping up after Nitti's setbacks and it ties well with the timeline of Nitti's shooting, Rio's death, the whole projectionist's union racket and Ricca's trips to NYC. I doubt we will ever find out the full picture, because there's a lot conflicting info out there. In some of the Mary Ferrell documents you even have a CI report that Campagna was Nitti's second in command after Capone went away and even succeeded him for a few months before Ricca took the reins circa '43.

Yes Campagna is also in the picture too. But I find it interesting that the CI from LA said Ricca was the actual boss. Another possibility that nobody mentions is Rio or is there information that eliminates him?

[Frank]

Also is it possible that after Capone was sent to prison, he remained official boss till either he was found to be mentally challenged or till the time of his death, and the administration on the street was a ruling panel that could of been in place till he was officially taken down as boss. Or another thought I've had in the past has Nitti being acting boss for Capone the official boss, with another acting boss when Nitti was shot. Then when Capone was basically crazy and not to return as boss , he was repleaced by Ricca or Campagna as official boss, with Nitti either becoming underboss or the Outfits version of the consigliere position, or maybe he just became a Capo. Villains got me pretty much convinced that Ricca was the boss, and now with the LA informant saying Ricca is actually the boss, that can be taken a few different ways too, I tend to believe he was the boss. But I'm not 100 per cent sure and I believe nobody is sure.

[B.]

Well there is no doubt there was a Chicago mafia family with Sicilian roots separate from Capone before the late 1920s and from experts on here I've heard there was a separate Chicago Heights family as well that was later consolidated. It's unlikely that any Sicilian members of the pre-1930s Chicago mafia family would have transferred into Capone's decina (assuming he did actually induct members -- we know he was given permission, but we can't 100% guarantee the induction took place during that time, though it probably did), but I suppose you can't rule it out if they received permission and were seeking protection due to the many issues going on in Chicago. LoVerde from my understanding was already a mafioso with roots in Palermo, and Bacino was likely already a member before the death of Pasquale LoLordo, both of them having their own ties to the Sicilian mafia in Ribera that would have translated to Chicago. While they may have been subervient, I can't imagine any of them were formally under Capone until he transferred to the Chicago family from the Masseria family and officially became the boss of Chicago.

[Snakes]

A lot of those guys high tailed it out of state or just simply ceased activity once Capone took over. I know a commonly used example of those who stayed were the "Three Doms" -- DiBella, Brancato, and Nuccio, who acted as gunmen for the Gennas. I suppose it's just as likely that they were made after Capone's ascension but the possibility is there. If true, they were definitely in the minority.

[aleksandrored]

So let me see if I understood, Capone was a masseria capodecina, so you mean he was a member of the "Genovese" family? and after the death of Masseria and Maranzano did they gain independence? Could it have anything to do with the commission, too?

[Frank]

So let me see if I understood, Capone was a masseria capodecina, so you mean he was a member of the "Genovese" family? and after the death of Masseria and Maranzano did they gain independence? Could it have anything to do with the commission, too?

The Torrio - Capone gang was an independent gang, not in LCN. Then around 1928-29 Capone became a made member of LCN. Made by Masseria and an official member of the Masseria Family. He was given the rank of Capo. Masseria gave him permission to make 10 members to be in this decina. So yes Capone and his 10 made men were members of the Masseria Family. They were recognized as a separate LCN Family either after Masseria was killed or after Maranzano was killed. Capone was a charter member of the Commission.

[aleksandrored]

So let me see if I understood, Capone was a masseria capodecina, so you mean he was a member of the "Genovese" family? and after the death of Masseria and Maranzano did they gain independence? Could it have anything to do with the commission, too?

The Torrio - Capone gang was an independent gang, not in LCN. Then around 1928-29 Capone became a made member of LCN. Made by Masseria and an official member of the Masseria Family. He was given the rank of Capo. Masseria gave him permission to make 10 members to be in this decina. So yes Capone and his 10 made men were members of the Masseria Family. They were recognized as a separate LCN Family either after Masseria was killed or after Maranzano was killed. Capone was a charter member of the Commission.

I understood, thanks for the explanation.