Five Felonies wrote:some of the responses in this thread make it seem like the article in question was promoting the kc family as s still functioning, organized, viable criminal enterprise based off of nothing besides a few key words that people hone in on. i just don't think it's fair or intellectually honest to try and somehow frame this article as proclaiming the family as still involved in anything other than remnants of organized activity at best. "on its last legs", "12 made guys", "3 capos who's titles are ceremonial" all seem far from the narrative that some are implying. the criticisms here are totally overblown!
KC is a "small, quiet crime family probably on its last legs?" It really can't even be called a family at this point. At least the feds and OC experts don't recognize one anymore. They're "quiet" because there's little in the way of mob activity going on. And the remnants that remain are on their last legs. No "probably" about it.
Also you'll notice that most of the article deals with the distant past. That's not a problem in itself, because the KC mob is mostly in the past, but its been the same way with his Detroit articles. If he had to stick to just the 21st century there would be relatively little to write about either family.
That said, I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Scott does provide good info at times. He just tries to dress it up too much.
bobbybats wrote:Ribaste who used to be close to Jerry Cammisano and was recently busted in an odometer fixing case with former city councilman Frank Rizzo
Five Felonies wrote:some of the responses in this thread make it seem like the article in question was promoting the kc family as s still functioning, organized, viable criminal enterprise based off of nothing besides a few key words that people hone in on. i just don't think it's fair or intellectually honest to try and somehow frame this article as proclaiming the family as still involved in anything other than remnants of organized activity at best. "on its last legs", "12 made guys", "3 capos who's titles are ceremonial" all seem far from the narrative that some are implying. the criticisms here are totally overblown!
KC is a "small, quiet crime family probably on its last legs?" It really can't even be called a family at this point. At least the feds and OC experts don't recognize one anymore. They're "quiet" because there's little in the way of mob activity going on. And the remnants that remain are on their last legs. No "probably" about it.
Also you'll notice that most of the article deals with the distant past. That's not a problem in itself, because the KC mob is mostly in the past, but its been the same way with his Detroit articles. If he had to stick to just the 21st century there would be relatively little to write about either family.
That said, I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Scott does provide good info at times. He just tries to dress it up too much.
bobbybats wrote:Ribaste who used to be close to Jerry Cammisano and was recently busted in an odometer fixing case with former city councilman Frank Rizzo
Any info on this?
I'm not looking to get into a pissing match with you, I know how you are about certain subjects. But Scott didn't throw out bullshit, he quoted his sources as law enforcement sources that Bat's confirms, all agreeing on organizational ranks, Be it it "ceremonial" rank or otherwise. No one is arguing that today's boss is a 70's equivalent of a soldier in terms of influence. But maybe we don't get to decide what they consider viable. And remember, in Sicily ten members constitutes a family. I used to be work in the jukebox business and I was warned about Kansas City, not so much about the mob per se but that people there have had a presence over legal gambling for a long time. I can't imagine going there, running into one of these guys who says you can't do that here and responding: Actually I can because the FBI says you're not a viable Family anymore.
Chris Christie wrote:I'm not looking to get into a pissing match with you, I know how you are about certain subjects. But Scott didn't throw out bullshit, he quoted his sources as law enforcement sources that Bat's confirms, all agreeing on organizational ranks, Be it it "ceremonial" rank or otherwise. No one is arguing that today's boss is a 70's equivalent of a soldier in terms of influence. But maybe we don't get to decide what they consider viable. And remember, in Sicily ten members constitutes a family. I used to be work in the jukebox business and I was warned about Kansas City, not so much about the mob per se but that people there have had a presence over legal gambling for a long time. I can't imagine going there, running into one of these guys who says you can't do that here and responding: Actually I can because the FBI says you're not a viable Family anymore.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but the feds and OC experts not recognizing a viable family in Kansas City isn't an assumption on my part or me deciding what they think. It's simply a fact.
Five Felonies wrote:some of the responses in this thread make it seem like the article in question was promoting the kc family as s still functioning, organized, viable criminal enterprise based off of nothing besides a few key words that people hone in on. i just don't think it's fair or intellectually honest to try and somehow frame this article as proclaiming the family as still involved in anything other than remnants of organized activity at best. "on its last legs", "12 made guys", "3 capos who's titles are ceremonial" all seem far from the narrative that some are implying. the criticisms here are totally overblown!
KC is a "small, quiet crime family probably on its last legs?" It really can't even be called a family at this point. At least the feds and OC experts don't recognize one anymore. They're "quiet" because there's little in the way of mob activity going on. And the remnants that remain are on their last legs. No "probably" about it.
Also you'll notice that most of the article deals with the distant past. That's not a problem in itself, because the KC mob is mostly in the past, but its been the same way with his Detroit articles. If he had to stick to just the 21st century there would be relatively little to write about either family.
That said, I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Scott does provide good info at times. He just tries to dress it up too much.
bobbybats wrote:Ribaste who used to be close to Jerry Cammisano and was recently busted in an odometer fixing case with former city councilman Frank Rizzo
Any info on this?
I am sorry I misspoke it was Henry Rizzo and Pete Ribaste, I am looking for the newspaper article, but it appears that the charges were dismissed with the agreement to disbanned the dealership and never operate in Missouri again. Pete Franklyn another business associate of Ribaste had to close his dealership on North Oak and move it to Kansas for similar reasons. As I was saying before Ribaste in my opinion should not be considered any type of power in KC.
In 14 years the bitch will be a real money earner, yes sir........
Henry was a state representative and a member of the Jackson County Legislature, not a city councilman. His son was recently elected to the state house. His Uncle John Mandacina and his aunt were charged and convicted of voter fraud in this election.
In 14 years the bitch will be a real money earner, yes sir........
There is a fundamental difference in the way some of us view a family versus the way that others do.
If there are made members from a particular group, with even a nominal boss, underboss, etc. that is by its very definition a Cosa Nostra organization. They may be retired, inactive, or fully legitimate, but throughout the history of the organization, these qualities do not mean that someone is not a member nor that they are not part of a Cosa Nostra organization.
What Wiseguy tends to focus on is the criminal viability of families. When LE says that a family is no longer active, they are referring to criminal viability. In the United States, men can't be charged with simple mafia association, so LE assesses them based on their criminal operations. It sounds like the KC family is absolutely a shadow of what it once was, with only a minor underworld influence.
However, criminal viability does not define a Cosa Nostra family. If all of the members were 100-year-old retired doctors with clean records, but they had gone through the ritual and recognized each others' membership and have a nominal boss, they are still very much a family, if one that is on the verge of completely dying out. That is something that really can't be argued.
I think it's great that Scott focuses on small market families, especially around the midwest, as it's an area i know very little about both currently and historically. Sometimes I believe he hypes things up for his own sake and makes things out to be more grandiose than they are, especially in Detroit, with their alleged panel of retired consiglieres, Jewish consigliere, etc. But I'd like to believe he has an honest interest in sharing information about these groups.
The "syndicate" and "don" talk definitely rubs me the wrong way because I associate those words with all of the myths and media creations that have plagued these subjects. I hope that he uses that kind of language because it makes his work more marketable to the common person and not because he believes it himself. I'm not so sure he really does know, though, which is unfortunate as it would really expand the scope and quality of his work if he got beyond the myths and Godfather-pandering.
The point though, is that the term family has two very important implications; firstly that there's activity and secondly that this activity involves cohesion.
Consider the contrary. It would be absurd to write there existed a family with no activity or cohesion.
You can write there are members, retired etc, but using the term family clearly implies activity. And cohesive activity at that.
Scott also assigning Boss, UB and consig titles implies the same.
Again the contrary. What point is there having an UB if there are no orders to pass on?
By stating the term UB you are implying activity.
Then we get from Scotts followers that the criticism is based on a 'few specific words' or technically it IS still a family or the terms Boss or UB dont really mean that they more titles of respect etc etc.
All this dancing is simple technicality excuses clearly contradicting the articles impression and nature.
Scott wrote those specific words, Scott did not state the admin titles were honorary and the nature of scotts article did not imply the use of the family as a technicality.
Yet zero accountability is assigned.
Why Scott cannot be judged objectively upon his works is clearly beyond me. The response to this article if the authors name was Volkman would be as diametrically opposed as possible.
But for some reason when a Burnstein article appears, the debate concerns his name, never the content of the work.
A family is a family. The activities of families has always evolved and changed, but the organization has always been there.
The term family and its structure has nothing to do with activity level. It refers to individuals who have been initiated into a group that is part of Cosa Nostra.
Yeah, what B. said. he articulated it better than I could.
No one's arguing, not even Scott, that the KC family is a static and enduring organization. He received information from local law enforcement and put it out. Sometimes I think that Scott won't be "credible" until he talks down what people tell him. Here's the bottom line: guy has connections to the FBI in Detroit and Chicago, local police connections to KC, professional relationship with Capeci and Anastasia, wrote a book with Giancana, in touch with Nove Tocco. And when Anastasia had the opportunity to write the Leonetti book, he said no and sponsored Scott for the project. What more do you want? Has a hell of a lot more legitimate connections than any of us. You don't have to agree with the guy 100% of the time. I don't. Quite frankly it burns my ass every time I see him refer to Tocco/Zerilli as Detroit's Founding Godfathers, I practically scream at my computer: "The mafia was there since 1900, you ass!" But then remember, he's not a historian he's a journalist. He has his strong points and weak points.
What Scott says his LE connections tell him and what LE actually says are often two very different things. So in the end those connections don't mean squat.
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Chris Christie wrote:What more do you want? Has a hell of a lot more legitimate connections than any of us. You don't have to agree with the guy 100% of the time.
Simply that the material is taken on its merits. I agree or disagree based on the the publications strength, not the author.
Chris Christie wrote:He has his strong points and weak points.
Thats all Im asking. Objectivity.
B. wrote:The term family and its structure has nothing to do with activity level. It refers to individuals who have been initiated into a group that is part of Cosa Nostra.
Technically yes. The implication in its use is quite different.
I don't think Scott implied anything else. The article pointed out that the KC family has very little going on and that its leadership positions are just a formality. A family is decided by the rules and structure of Cosa Nostra, not by criminal activity or the opinion of LE. The network is dead so it's never going to happen, but in theory any of the remaining made guys in KC could be introduced to members in New York as "the same thing". The boss of KC could be introduced to the boss of the Gambinos as a boss.
I HIGHLY recommend you read something like Antonino Calderone's book, which is translated from Italian, to understand what I'm talking about. All of the American informants and witnesses have reinforced the same ideas, but I feel like he explains the essence of a Cosa Nostra family almost perfectly.
