"Johnny Scimini"

[Lupara]

Its very interesting to me the relation betwen Gambino and colombos. Could it be that those two were related somehow?

If you are talking about the families they originally started out as one family in the area before splitting into up. There was a good thread about this relationship a while back.


Pogo

I've most likely seen that thread but can't clearly remember. Could you post the link if you have it?

[Pogo The Clown]

Here are two of them that discuss it. i don't remember if these were the main one though.


viewtopic.php?f=29&t=408&p=4846&hilit=m ... ella#p4846


viewtopic.php?f=29&t=867&hilit=mineo+dibella

[Giacomo_Vacari]

NYCPD B#108235, #B225659,
FBI #349341
7201 8th Avenue, Brooklyn, NY (naughty, naughty)
3801 Ave P, Brooklyn, NY (naughty)
In all this, I will say there has to have been an informant who was made, other than Greg Scarpa.

[B.]

Yeah, it's not 100% what the arrangement was but there was a ton of crossover between early Gambino/Profaci members, with Mineo seeming to have been the boss of both families at different times. It seems impossible by post-1930 standards for a guy to abruptly go from boss of one family to boss of another, but things were a lot more fluid back then. Families were just as defined as they are now, but members (Sicilians in particular) could transfer from family to family easier and even jump to high-ranking positions when they were still new to a city/family. With that in mind it's still pretty surprising but not totally crazy that Mineo could transfer as boss of one family to boss of another.

There is also indication that before Mineo was boss of the Profacis, the future Profaci family may have been a faction under D'Aquila, so there were already shared roots between those families that made Mineo's transition logical. Giuseppe Fontana was a high-ranking member from Villabate who was apparently under D'Aquila but he might have represented a faction that would later become part of the Mineo-DiBella-Profaci family.

Here is a breakdown of the relationship between the Gambinos and Colombos from the early 1910s to present day as I understand it, with a lot of the early info coming from researchers like Angelo, Rick, Dave, etc. but also some of my own interpretations:

- D'Aquila is boss of one family that has interests all over NYC, including South Brooklyn, and influence throughout the country.
- Mineo takes some of D'Aquila's South Brooklyn members into a new family.
- Mineo forms an alliance with Masseria years later, D'Aquila is killed and Mineo returns to the D'Aquila family and becomes the boss, leaving fellow Palermitano Sal DiBella in charge of the family he had been running.
- Mineo is betrayed by a faction of his new family led by Frank Scalise, who may not have liked the fact that Mineo took over their family from the outside.
- Sal DiBella either steps down or is removed from power, most likely sometime after Mineo is killed. Frank Scalise briefly becomes boss before having to step down.
- Mangano becomes boss of the Mineo-D'Aquila family and Profaci becomes boss of the Mineo-DiBella family, with a few members possibly switching between those families during the aftermath.
- After 1931 these two families separate even further, but there is still a strong relationship between Mangano and Profaci, with Mangano still representing a wide territory while the Profaci guys remain concentrated in South Brooklyn.
- Mangano is murdered and the family taken over by Anastasia. I don't know much about Anastasia's relationship with the Profacis, but anti-Mineo faction leader Frank Scalise is killed followed shortly by Anastasia.
- Profaci experiences trouble late in his reign with the rebel Gallo faction who are allegedly backed by Anastasia's replacement Carlo Gambino.
- Profaci dies and his would-be successor Magliocco continues to get grief from the Gambino-backed Gallo faction and also gets involved in a cold war with the Gambinos (and Luccheses) that almost breaks out into violence when capo Joe Colombo forms an alliance with the Gambinos.
- Magliocco dies and the Profaci family becomes completely subservient to the Gambinos under new boss Joe Colombo.
- When Joe Colombo is taken out, Sal DiBella's son Tom becomes boss of the Profaci family, but is operating on behalf of the Persicos. The Persicos are not subservient to the Gambinos and once Carmine Persico is ready, DiBella steps down and lets Persico take over.
- During the 1970s and 80s Persico creates a whole new organic faction within his family with a lot of his own relatives and longtime associates running the show, but prison loosens his grip on the family.
- Acting boss Vic Orena becomes subservient to John Gotti's influence and attempts to become boss with the Gambinos behind him. Civil war erupts and the family is severely damaged while the Gambinos wash their hands of it.
- Seems that the Orena/Gotti relationship was the last significant political exchange between the two families.

[B.]

Should add that all of that is open to interpretation and the early stuff pre-1928 is far from "fact".

A major x-factor in all of this is Sicily. Mineo traveled back and forth to Sicily at least a few times after coming to the US, so his new family could have come from his standing or relationships there. The Palermo area where the early leaders of these two familes are from is a very complicated place and it could have been equally complicated in NYC.

Some of the researchers can correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the pre-Profaci family under Mineo was way more dominated by members from Palermo proper, whereas Profaci expanded the Villabate faction (which is still very close to Palermo, but not in the city limits) and recruited a lot more people from elsewhere. The Mangano family continued to be dominated by members from the city of Palermo long after the 1930s and still has an influential Palermo faction today.

[Lupara]

Here are two of them that discuss it. i don't remember if these were the main one though.


viewtopic.php?f=29&t=408&p=4846&hilit=m ... ella#p4846


viewtopic.php?f=29&t=867&hilit=mineo+dibella

Thanks.

[Lupara]

Yeah, it's not 100% what the arrangement was but there was a ton of crossover between early Gambino/Profaci members, with Mineo seeming to have been the boss of both families at different times. It seems impossible by post-1930 standards for a guy to abruptly go from boss of one family to boss of another, but things were a lot more fluid back then. Families were just as defined as they are now, but members (Sicilians in particular) could transfer from family to family easier and even jump to high-ranking positions when they were still new to a city/family. With that in mind it's still pretty surprising but not totally crazy that Mineo could transfer as boss of one family to boss of another.

I'm very sceptical towards this theory. I don't have any source to back up my scepticism other than common sense. I wonder what the purpose of two separate families was in the first place if this was possible. Surely there must have been a reason why the Di Bella-Profaci family split off from the larger D'Aquila organization. It doesn't make much sense to me why they would allow somebody to switch as boss between two rival families.

[B.]

Yeah, it's not 100% what the arrangement was but there was a ton of crossover between early Gambino/Profaci members, with Mineo seeming to have been the boss of both families at different times. It seems impossible by post-1930 standards for a guy to abruptly go from boss of one family to boss of another, but things were a lot more fluid back then. Families were just as defined as they are now, but members (Sicilians in particular) could transfer from family to family easier and even jump to high-ranking positions when they were still new to a city/family. With that in mind it's still pretty surprising but not totally crazy that Mineo could transfer as boss of one family to boss of another.

I'm very sceptical towards this theory. I don't have any source to back up my scepticism other than common sense. I wonder what the purpose of two separate families was in the first place if this was possible. Surely there must have been a reason why the Di Bella-Profaci family split off from the larger D'Aquila organization. It doesn't make much sense to me why they would allow somebody to switch as boss between two rival families.

It's all in the politics. A lot of crazy things have happened because of power dynamics and the complex relationships these guys have. Throw in the ocean of stuff we don't know from back then (both in the US and Sicily), and it really could have happened for any reason.

Also the more we learn about the mob the more it's clear to me that there are rarely straight up "rival families", but more rival factions between and within families. For example, the Scalise faction was secretly plotting against Mineo but there also seems to have been a group in that family that supported Mineo, like the guys who were under Ferrigno and probably some other captains we don't know as much about. Mangano may have been more on the fence or his opinion changed along with the tide of the war.

[Lupara]

Yeah, it's not 100% what the arrangement was but there was a ton of crossover between early Gambino/Profaci members, with Mineo seeming to have been the boss of both families at different times. It seems impossible by post-1930 standards for a guy to abruptly go from boss of one family to boss of another, but things were a lot more fluid back then. Families were just as defined as they are now, but members (Sicilians in particular) could transfer from family to family easier and even jump to high-ranking positions when they were still new to a city/family. With that in mind it's still pretty surprising but not totally crazy that Mineo could transfer as boss of one family to boss of another.

I'm very sceptical towards this theory. I don't have any source to back up my scepticism other than common sense. I wonder what the purpose of two separate families was in the first place if this was possible. Surely there must have been a reason why the Di Bella-Profaci family split off from the larger D'Aquila organization. It doesn't make much sense to me why they would allow somebody to switch as boss between two rival families.

It's all in the politics. A lot of crazy things have happened because of power dynamics and the complex relationships these guys have. Throw in the ocean of stuff we don't know from back then (both in the US and Sicily), and it really could have happened for any reason.

Also the more we learn about the mob the more it's clear to me that there are rarely straight up "rival families", but more rival factions between and within families. For example, the Scalise faction was secretly plotting against Mineo but there also seems to have been a group in that family that supported Mineo, like the guys who were under Ferrigno and probably some other captains we don't know as much about. Mangano may have been more on the fence or his opinion changed along with the tide of the war.

I think that pre-1930 there was a lot more rivalry between the families and I'd be suprised if the D'Aquila-Mineo group was pleased to see a large fraction of their organization split off. Is it possible that the break happened after Mineo was killed? That might explain why he was believed to be boss of both families.

[B.]

I think that pre-1930 there was a lot more rivalry between the families and I'd be suprised if the D'Aquila-Mineo group was pleased to see a large fraction of their organization split off. Is it possible that the break happened after Mineo was killed? That might explain why he was believed to be boss of both families.

That's what some people used to think, and keep in mind I've never seen the original sources, but some old secret service docs have apparently come to light that make it very clear that Mineo was in charge of his own group separate from D'Aquila by the early 1910s that included future Profaci members. Now, it may not be as cut and dry as "Mineo headed the Profaci family", but there is at least something to it. Would help to know if Mineo had been a member of the D'Aquila family before he got his own group. It also changes things since we now know that Ignazio Lupo was probably the boss of the D'Aquila family beforehand.

Something also to consider is that in the early days they seemed to operate much more with "one organization" in mind. This is something that witnesses and informants still say today, that Cosa Nostra is still one organization, but the families have gotten more divided and you don't see members transferring between families or joint making ceremonies or anything like that. You have to figure that they also used to use the "boss of bosses" type position which changes the way families interacted.

I think you're right that not everyone was pleased about the arrangement with Mineo, hence there being at least one strong faction (Scalise) that was plotting against him and Masseria in his new family, plus rumors about Joe Profaci and others in his old family also secretly working against him. There was also the D'Aquila murder which no doubt upset some of his allies. But Mineo was a Masseria ally and Masseria at that time was forcing his will on the entire country and willing to use violence to get his way, so their opponents had to be tactful/political about fighting back, which we saw with the way the other families conspired against them.

[B.]

Also at the time that Mineo would have first become a boss, D'Aquila hadn't been a boss for long. It's possible that D'Aquila and Mineo taking over separate families coincided with the reorganization that was going on after Lupo went to prison. There were a lot of changes happening related to Morello and Lupo going away and it would take years for the new power structure to settle, and even then there were problems.

[Lupara]

I think that pre-1930 there was a lot more rivalry between the families and I'd be suprised if the D'Aquila-Mineo group was pleased to see a large fraction of their organization split off. Is it possible that the break happened after Mineo was killed? That might explain why he was believed to be boss of both families.

That's what some people used to think, and keep in mind I've never seen the original sources, but some old secret service docs have apparently come to light that make it very clear that Mineo was in charge of his own group separate from D'Aquila by the early 1910s that included future Profaci members.

But also keep in mind that before the 1960s there was little knowledge about the Cosa Nostra. For instance, capos of certain families were believed to head their own organizations. This might have been the case with Mineo as well. Do these docs specifically state that Mineo operated separate from D'Aquia?

[Lupara]

Also at the time that Mineo would have first become a boss, D'Aquila hadn't been a boss for long. It's possible that D'Aquila and Mineo taking over separate families coincided with the reorganization that was going on after Lupo went to prison. There were a lot of changes happening related to Morello and Lupo going away and it would take years for the new power structure to settle, and even then there were problems.

That makes a lot more sense.

[B.]

I think that pre-1930 there was a lot more rivalry between the families and I'd be suprised if the D'Aquila-Mineo group was pleased to see a large fraction of their organization split off. Is it possible that the break happened after Mineo was killed? That might explain why he was believed to be boss of both families.

That's what some people used to think, and keep in mind I've never seen the original sources, but some old secret service docs have apparently come to light that make it very clear that Mineo was in charge of his own group separate from D'Aquila by the early 1910s that included future Profaci members.

But also keep in mind that before the 1960s there was little knowledge about the Cosa Nostra. For instance, capos of certain families were believed to head their own organizations. This might have been the case with Mineo as well. Do these docs specifically state that Mineo operated separate from D'Aquia?

Trust me, I'm not married to the idea. People more knowledgeable than me on this topic have made some points that make a lot of sense based on what they've found. My understanding is that Mineo is mentioned as a leader of a "gang" and that the only other leaders of "gangs" who get mentioned alongside him are guys who are confirmed bosses. I highly recommend checking out the May 2014 issue of the Informer which was written and researched by several of our own boys here.

[Lupara]

I think that pre-1930 there was a lot more rivalry between the families and I'd be suprised if the D'Aquila-Mineo group was pleased to see a large fraction of their organization split off. Is it possible that the break happened after Mineo was killed? That might explain why he was believed to be boss of both families.

That's what some people used to think, and keep in mind I've never seen the original sources, but some old secret service docs have apparently come to light that make it very clear that Mineo was in charge of his own group separate from D'Aquila by the early 1910s that included future Profaci members.

But also keep in mind that before the 1960s there was little knowledge about the Cosa Nostra. For instance, capos of certain families were believed to head their own organizations. This might have been the case with Mineo as well. Do these docs specifically state that Mineo operated separate from D'Aquia?

Trust me, I'm not married to the idea. People more knowledgeable than me on this topic have made some points that make a lot of sense based on what they've found. My understanding is that Mineo is mentioned as a leader of a "gang" and that the only other leaders of "gangs" who get mentioned alongside him are guys who are confirmed bosses. I highly recommend checking out the May 2014 issue of the Informer which was written and researched by several of our own boys here.

I bought that issue of Informer on release day. It came up with theories such as Lupo heading his own family, the Profaci family existing before Profaci and Capone being a capo of Masseria. Very intriguing stuff. I have to read it again though.