General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[Snakes]

I don't know much about Del Duca but I realized he died in 1960, which predates Rocky's stay in New York, although that doesn't preclude them from association at an earlier time. Infelise was born in Wisconsin and moved to Chicago after he got out of the service so I'm not sure when he began his connection with New York.

[B.]

Yes. It's interesting to note at least that the books re-opening in Chicago coincided with their re-opening in New York. I've wondered if part of why past informants didn't recall there being a making ceremony in Chicago in their time had something to do with the books being closed, and thus Chicago just brought in new members with a nod or banquet in those periods.

I don't think formalities mattered in relation to the books being closed or not. The DeCavalcantes and Bonannos waited for the books to open up in the 1970s yet did informal verbal "ceremonies" after the books re-opened.

It doesn't seem the books were solidily closed on Commission orders anywhere except NYC/NJ. There was a temporary period after Valachi flipped where Philly was chastized for inducting new members, but they were allowed to resume inductions within a few years. Buffalo inducted Joe Todaro Sr. in 1967. The Patriarcas did some inductions in the 1960s.

With the families like St. Louis, New Orleans, Cleveland, etc. who rarely did ceremonies, it seems to have been at the leadership's own discretion, not a result of Commission pressure. Families did however have to tell the Commission they were inducting new members, how many they were inducting, and receive approval (NO being the exception, as they were no under the Commission).

[PolackTony]

Yes. It's interesting to note at least that the books re-opening in Chicago coincided with their re-opening in New York. I've wondered if part of why past informants didn't recall there being a making ceremony in Chicago in their time had something to do with the books being closed, and thus Chicago just brought in new members with a nod or banquet in those periods.

I don't think formalities mattered in relation to the books being closed or not. The DeCavalcantes and Bonannos waited for the books to open up in the 1970s yet did informal verbal "ceremonies" after the books re-opened.

It doesn't seem the books were solidily closed on Commission orders anywhere except NYC/NJ. There was a temporary period after Valachi flipped where Philly was chastized for inducting new members, but they were allowed to resume inductions within a few years. Buffalo inducted Joe Todaro Sr. in 1967. The Patriarcas did some inductions in the 1960s.

With the families like St. Louis, New Orleans, Cleveland, etc. who rarely did ceremonies, it seems to have been at the leadership's own discretion, not a result of Commission pressure. Families did however have to tell the Commission they were inducting new members, how many they were inducting, and receive approval (NO being the exception, as they were no under the Commission).

All good points, of course.

I recall reading that one of the things that led to Patriarca getting indicted was his use of non Italians for jobs as he wasn’t able to induct new members due to the books being closed. That may be inaccurate or overstated, of course. My assumption has never been that Chicago ever had to get permission from the Commission for its internal affairs (my reading also of Joe Bonnano’s statement that Chicago “enjoyed a quasi-independent status” vis a vis NYC). I do think it’s interesting to at least note that Chicago seems to have opened their books around when NYC did in the 1970s, and that this may have also been when they decided to reinstate the “old way” of making guys.

FWIW, I recall on the old ANP forums the consensus seems to have been that Chicago was always built around a core of about 40-60 made members. Fosco always claimed that the Feds had historically greatly overstated the made membership. So it’s then very interesting that these guys in NJ had the same impression. Also, their explanation for the modest membership —“they’ve got the whole state to themselves” — I think was spot on. NYC’s outlier status in terms of made membership is most likely explicable as a response to competition between multiple families operating in the same territory (an argument that I believe you’ve made before B). Chicago had the luxury of not having the same pressure to swell its ranks and thus they never developed a model where a made guy was a mere “soldier”. Made guys were franchisees/partners in specific racket enterprises and entitled to a cut of the family returns, while making use of an army of associates who functioned as soldiers and workers and who in turn had no choice but to work their asses off as they were hungry. On top of the financial benefit of this pattern to the made membership, there was also the benefit of insulation, as so much of the workforce on the ground was not privy to the internal workings of the Chicago mafia.

[Villain]

The "Rocky" guy is Rocco Fischetti and they are talking about the problem they previously had in Miami. Fischetti died in 64/65

"AND" is missing between Rocky and Mooney since both were present on the meeting in Miami together with the Genoveses, Gambino and other bosses. Chicago won the sitdown.

Fischetti and DelDuca probably went all the way back to the days in Brooklyn. Toddo used to finance Capones bootlegging activities while Fischetti arrived in Chicago sometime around 1927/28. Toddos transactions probably went through Fischetti and all of them former Brooklyn fellas.

[Villain]

....in addition to my previous post, the problem in Miami was between Chicago and the Genoveses

[Snakes]

The "Rocky" guy is Rocco Fischetti and they are talking about the problem they previously had in Miami. Fischetti died in 64/65

"AND" is missing between Rocky and Mooney since both were present on the meeting in Miami together with the Genoveses, Gambino and other bosses. Chicago won the sitdown.

Fischetti and DelDuca probably went all the way back to the days in Brooklyn. Toddo used to finance Capones bootlegging activities while Fischetti arrived in Chicago sometime around 1927/28. Toddos transactions probably went through Fischetti and all of them former Brooklyn fellas.

I considered that, too, but they mentioned "Rocky" and "Fischetti" separately which made me think differently. Sometimes these transcripts are so cryptic that it's hard to make heads or tails of them.

[Villain]

The "Rocky" guy is Rocco Fischetti and they are talking about the problem they previously had in Miami. Fischetti died in 64/65

"AND" is missing between Rocky and Mooney since both were present on the meeting in Miami together with the Genoveses, Gambino and other bosses. Chicago won the sitdown.

Fischetti and DelDuca probably went all the way back to the days in Brooklyn. Toddo used to finance Capones bootlegging activities while Fischetti arrived in Chicago sometime around 1927/28. Toddos transactions probably went through Fischetti and all of them former Brooklyn fellas.

I considered that, too, but they mentioned "Rocky" and "Fischetti" separately which made me think differently. Sometimes these transcripts are so cryptic that it's hard to make heads or tails of them.

Yeah i agree, especially the wiretapped convos can be quite confusing when some guys use nicknames, while others use official names and stuff or begin to whisper lol.

Regarding Rocky Fischetti.....it seems that before his death, he mightve been considered as one of the Outfits elders, something that was also described by one NY associate regarding the Outfits semi-retired bosses still receiving income and used Rocky Fish as an example, which corresponds on what the Genovese guys also stated. When Charlie Fish became the acting boss during the mid 40s, his brother Rocky became capo and later a territorial boss for the Cicero-South Side faction. Rocky managed to enter Lake County during the 1940s conflict with the Northsiders. Later he was in huge debts which all were paid by his lieutenant Les Kruse who in turn inhertied interests around Lake County and Cicero or in plane words took over Rockys spot. Rocky also sold some personal land around the North Side to some university or shit like that. Thats why Kruse was labelled as being on the same level as Italian capo and thats why Rocky Fish was labelled as semi-retired high level member.

[PolackTony]

If they’re talking about Rocky Fish, then who is the guy they mention who wasn’t made?

[Villain]

I thought of Rocky Fish too given that they mentioned Florida, but the Rocky they were talking about clearly wasn’t a made guy.

He says the guy in Florida is with Rocky.....if you refer to that same sentence.....

[Villain]

If they’re talking about Rocky Fish, then who is the guy they mention who wasn’t made?

There was one associate who worked for both Coppola and Joe Fischetti, Rocky's brother, and so Joe wanted to be direct with Coppola instead with that same associate who in turn also received a beating from Rocky in front of Coppola or something like that....

[PolackTony]

If they’re talking about Rocky Fish, then who is the guy they mention who wasn’t made?

There was one associate who worked for both Coppola and Joe Fischetti, Rocky's brother, and so Joe wanted to be direct with Coppola instead with that same associate who in turn also received a beating from Rocky in front of Coppola or something like that....

You recall his name?

[Villain]

If they’re talking about Rocky Fish, then who is the guy they mention who wasn’t made?

There was one associate who worked for both Coppola and Joe Fischetti, Rocky's brother, and so Joe wanted to be direct with Coppola instead with that same associate who in turn also received a beating from Rocky in front of Coppola or something like that....

You recall his name?

Max Eder...dunno if it was an alias or real name...

[SolarSolano]

I don't know much about Del Duca but I realized he died in 1960, which predates Rocky's stay in New York, although that doesn't preclude them from association at an earlier time. Infelise was born in Wisconsin and moved to Chicago after he got out of the service so I'm not sure when he began his connection with New York.

When did Infelise stay in NYC? His power came through his wife's father Tony Capezio - I'm surprised if he was drifting into another family.

[Snakes]

I don't know much about Del Duca but I realized he died in 1960, which predates Rocky's stay in New York, although that doesn't preclude them from association at an earlier time. Infelise was born in Wisconsin and moved to Chicago after he got out of the service so I'm not sure when he began his connection with New York.

When did Infelise stay in NYC? His power came through his wife's father Tony Capezio - I'm surprised if he was drifting into another family.

He owed 40k in juice loans to higher ups in Chicago so he skipped town until he got right with his debt. He stayed in New York from 1962-63 and did some hijacking and possibly made a few narcotics deals. He went back a few times over the next few years.

[Villain]

The NY guys are talking about some guy who was around for quite a long time and i dont believe that by 1962 Infelise was one of those guys....