How Many Mafia Families Were There? 20,24,26???

[Wiseguy]

The Genovese mostly got out of wide scale government corruption after Costello. They still have a lot of union control but nothing like what they had in Uncle Frank's day. They pivoted to vice rackets in the 60s. Families like Chicago, Luccheses and Gambinos had too much tied in unions and government and when their front men started going down the rackets dried up.

The Genovese are what they are today because they control vice and small government/union rackets. They don't have government and organized labor writ large in their pocket anymore. The Tammany Hall days are over. lol.

But Wiseguy wants to believe the Genovese appoints presidents and controls the nuclear silos.

No, I just prefer you stop making up revisionist history out of thin air.

Political and police corruption across the board declined as the years went on. What examples do you have of the other families staying or becoming more involved in corruption after Costello retired? If anything, the best example of ongoing corruption after that, related to the NY families, was corruption tied to the Genovese family in New Jersey.

And what do you mean the Genovese switched to vice rackets in the 1960s? They and the other families were involved in vice rackets before, during, and after.

Anyway, you need to quit talking out of your ass. I don't know if you're just looking for attention but you're quickly becoming the village idiot of the Black Hand forum.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

The guy who thinks the Genovese family controls the World Bank and NATO is calling me a revisionist. Seriously, what is your fanaticism over this family about? Are you trying to get on record with them? Do you hang out in front of their social club asking for autographs? Do you mimic their body language like the kids in Bronx Tale?

[Wiseguy]

The guy who thinks the Genovese family controls the World Bank and NATO is calling me a revisionist.

Where have I ever said that?

Seriously, what is your fanaticism over this family about? Are you trying to get on record with them? Do you hang out in front of their social club asking for autographs? Do you mimic their body language like the kids in Bronx Tale?

As I suspected, you've got diddly to support any of the claims you made in this thread. I ask you to explain your posts, and give examples, and you just try and change the subject.

And, for the record, I'm not trying to hype any particular family. Just get the facts straight. Unlike you, everything I've said can be supported.

[JCB1977]

The guy who thinks the Genovese family controls the World Bank and NATO is calling me a revisionist. Seriously, what is your fanaticism over this family about? Are you trying to get on record with them? Do you hang out in front of their social club asking for autographs? Do you mimic their body language like the kids in Bronx Tale?

Welcome to the forum Grouchy Sinatra. Glad to have you on board. Regardless of your assessment of Wiseguy, he has been around a long time and he is a person who cites everything. While Wiseguy and I have disagreed on using the Feds info as an absolute measuring stick, it is needed for the purpose of debates and disagreements on this forum. He has been a major contributor to the boards and if you're respectful to him you will get that in return. This forum has many professional researchers, authors and genealogists. We are the antithesis of GBB or the old Real Deal. This forum is mixed with guys who knew some of the players on the streets and people who are experts in finding every source available to document their opinions and assertions. We all welcome your comments but don't take it personal if a poster asks you for a citation. Many of the brains on here are accustomed to having documentation for every assessment. Again, welcome to the board and if you could provide documentation for your assessment, it allows the debate/research to go more smoothly.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

Where's your examples? You keep posting these vague quotes that don't prove anything.

You're a Genovese fanboy. Literally stanning for them like you're going to score points with them on a message board or something. If anyone even dares to point out another family that had more power than than them at any given time it's as if you have an app on your phone that alerts you to it and you spring to action and insult the person. Sorry to hurt your feelings but after Costello got shot it was all about Carlo Gambino and Chicago, until Chin made his move in the early 80s.

[JCB1977]

Where's your examples? You keep posting these vague quotes that don't prove anything.

You're a Genovese fanboy. Literally stanning for them like you're going to score points with them on a message board or something. If anyone even dares to point out another family that had more power than than them at any given time it's as if you have an app on your phone that alerts you to it and you spring to action and insult the person. Sorry to hurt your feelings but after Costello got shot it was all about Carlo Gambino and Chicago, until Chin made his move in the early 80s.

What is your rationale behind that? Could you give examples? I am not saying you are wrong, just curious to how you come to your analysis.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

Regardless of your assessment of Wiseguy, he has been around a long time and he is a person who cites everything.

No he doesn't. He hasn't cited anything, other than some vague quotes that don't prove or disprove anything. He came right out insulting me and calling me a revisionist. Looking at his comment history it's obvious he's very defensive of the Genovese family and the perception that they are the end all be all of mafia power in America when that simply isn't true. They started the commission and reigned supreme until Costello retired. Then it was the Gambinos and Chicago. In the post Gotti era the Genovese became the best of a bad lot and that's where we're at today. I'm sorry that makes him so defensive but it's just the truth.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

What is your rationale behind that? Could you give examples? I am not saying you are wrong, just curious to how you come to your analysis.

What's his rationale?!? He just posted a couple of quotes.

[JCB1977]

What is your rationale behind that? Could you give examples? I am not saying you are wrong, just curious to how you come to your analysis.

What's his rationale?!? He just posted a couple of quotes.

I've been around a while, I have seen him document most of his work, if not all. His assessment of the Genovese Family has had much documentation over the years. If he has a specific claim, just ask him how he obtained his info. Again, great to have you on the BH Forum. We hope you enjoy it.

[Wiseguy]

Where's your examples? You keep posting these vague quotes that don't prove anything.

You're a Genovese fanboy. Literally stanning for them like you're going to score points with them on a message board or something. If anyone even dares to point out another family that had more power than than them at any given time it's as if you have an app on your phone that alerts you to it and you spring to action and insult the person. Sorry to hurt your feelings but after Costello got shot it was all about Carlo Gambino and Chicago, until Chin made his move in the early 80s.

You're very adept at just dismissing anything that doesnt support your bogus, made-up narrative.

So, if I give you quotes (not vague, but right to the point) from both law enforcement officials and mafiosi that say the Genovese family has always been the most powerful family, that holds no weight huh? Can you give me a single example where anyone similar said as much about the Chicago Outfit?

And, as I've pointed out before, you're whole thinking seems to be based on the Genovese family's power being centered around Costello. As if the family just went into disarray after he was out of the picture. Meanwhile, all you've said is "Gambino was the man." Once again, focusing on a single guy. I've already explained (with examples) of how the most powerful boss doesn't necessarily equate to the most powerful family.

The Genovese and Gambino families always rivaled each other in many ways. Similar in size, they were the two largest families in New York and the country. Both had the biggest share of the gambling and loansharking rackets. They split the waterfront and most of the waste hauling. Both heavily involved in construction and trucking. The Genovese had the Fulton Fish Market and Javits Center. The Gambinos had the Garment Center. The Genovese had more success maintaining their gambling and loansharking rackets later on, though the Gambinos obviously had more involvement in the drug trade. At least after the 1950s.

So what set the Genovese apart? First, it was they who traditionally had the strongest ties to other families around the country and, according to a 1995 RICO indictment involving LIUNA, had represented the Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit, New England, New Jersey, Philadelphia, and Pittsburgh families on the Commission at different points. Second, they were always considered to be the wealthier and more sophisticated family. Third, they had more union clout, including on a national level.

And, once more, I care about the facts. Not hyping a particular family. Virtually nothing you say squares with the facts. That's what I have a problem with. You enter into discussions in bad faith, talk out of your ass, and then aren't honest enough, or have too much pride, to do anything else besides try and change the subject or go on the offensive.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

The Genovese had more success maintaining their gambling and loansharking rackets later on, though the Gambinos obviously had more involvement in the drug trade. At least after the 1950s.

Yeah, pretty much what I said...

The Genovese pivoted to gambling and loansharking after Costello because he was their connection to government and the court system. Costello's reign was the absolute peak of the Italian-American mob, full stop, and there wasn't another era even close.

The Genovese are just the best of a bad lot today. They kept control of vice rackets which was a smart idea because vice will never go away. Gambling, prostitution, etc, and are still grandfathered into a lot of union positions they held for decades, although most of these are just legitimate positions today, not party to any criminal conspiracy.

they were always considered to be the wealthier and more sophisticated family.

Thank you Arnold Rothstein, Charlie Lucky, Meyer and Uncle Frank. And after Uncle Frank that was no longer true. Their wealth and sophistication waned as they pivoted to vice rackets, and at this time the family led by THE MAN Carlo Gambino and the Chicago Outfit were more sophisticated and wealthy.

[maxiestern11]

The Genovese had more success maintaining their gambling and loansharking rackets later on, though the Gambinos obviously had more involvement in the drug trade. At least after the 1950s.

Yeah, pretty much what I said...

The Genovese pivoted to gambling and loansharking after Costello because he was their connection to government and the court system. Costello's reign was the absolute peak of the Italian-American mob, full stop, and there wasn't another era even close.

The Genovese are just the best of a bad lot today. They kept control of vice rackets which was a smart idea because vice will never go away. Gambling, prostitution, etc, and are still grandfathered into a lot of union positions they held for decades, although most of these are just legitimate positions today, not party to any criminal conspiracy.

they were always considered to be the wealthier and more sophisticated family.

Thank you Arnold Rothstein, Charlie Lucky, Meyer and Uncle Frank. And after Uncle Frank that was no longer true. Their wealth and sophistication waned as they pivoted to vice rackets, and at this time the family led by THE MAN Carlo Gambino and the Chicago Outfit were more sophisticated and wealthy.

With all due respect, I think your smoking the pipe! Your all wet Grouch! ..... I want whatever your smoking kid! Lol

[Wiseguy]

Yeah, pretty much what I said...

That's not really what you said at all but, if you want to revisionist history your own posts, go ahead.

The Genovese pivoted to gambling and loansharking after Costello because he was their connection to government and the court system. Costello's reign was the absolute peak of the Italian-American mob, full stop, and there wasn't another era even close.

Again, the Genovese family - as well as all the other families - were involved in gambling and loansharking before, during, and after Costello. It's not like guys in the Genovese family said, "Well, now that Frank is retired and we've lost his political contacts, let's ramp up our vice rackets." One have anything to do with the other. And, while Costello was a primary connection to corrupt politicians and judges, he wasn't the only one. Lastly, nobody is arguing the 1950s were not the peak of the Mafia's power.

The Genovese are just the best of a bad lot today. They kept control of vice rackets which was a smart idea because vice will never go away. Gambling, prostitution, etc, and are still grandfathered into a lot of union positions they held for decades, although most of these are just legitimate positions today, not party to any criminal conspiracy.

Prostitution became a rather passe racket for the mob. In the 1970s and 1980s, they had Times Square and porn. Today, strip clubs have bern the primary mainstay in the sex trade and the Gambinos have had the most involvement in that

Thank you Arnold Rothstein, Charlie Lucky, Meyer and Uncle Frank. And after Uncle Frank that was no longer true. Their wealth and sophistication waned as they pivoted to vice rackets, and at this time the family led by THE MAN Carlo Gambino and the Chicago Outfit were more sophisticated and wealthy.

Wrong. I would ask you to provide anything, other than your own opinion, to back that up but I know I wouldn't get it.

More "vague" quotes...

The Genovese family is the most sophisticated, cautious, secretive, and powerful Cosa Nostra family in the United States."
- Phil Leonetti, Philadelphia LCN Underboss (1989)

"Organized crime experts say the Gambinos are less sophisticated than the Genovese family, and less eager to expand their operations outside the New York area."
- Brad Dunn, Author - New York: The Unknown City (2004)

"It has the most sophisticated operations. The Genovese family has always been considered the Ivy League of the Mafia."
- Selwyn Raab, New York Times columnist (2005)

[Grouchy Sinatra]

Not surprising. There seems to be few Genovese fanboys in here.

Do you and Wiseguy imitate them in front of their social clubs like the kids in Bronx Tale?

[Wiseguy]

Not surprising. There seems to be few Genovese fanboys in here.

Do you and Wiseguy imitate them in front of their social clubs like the kids in Bronx Tale?

Yeah, people are "fanboys" simply they correct your bullshit. Keep deflecting.