New arrests in Torretta

[B.]

Pennisi also said Grillo is "not a drug user."

He says Grillo is Sicilian-American and from 1st ave in Manhattan. He says Grillo had ongoing visits to Italy and brought his daughter, but isn't sure if Grillo met with people on those visits.

I know the old Gambino members Liborio and Leonardo Grillo were from Marsala, Trapani, but not sure the relation.

[JohnnyS]

It's in one of the articles Grillo did travel with his daughter that time.

[B.]

It's in one of the articles Grillo did travel with his daughter that time.

Maybe the coke was for her.

[TommyGambino]

Pennisi says Ernie Grillo took over Paradiso's crew.

Didn't pennisi flip like 4 years ago? Likely that Paradiso has been consigliere a while before we found out off Capeci then

[bronx]

mr leo was his father

[CabriniGreen]

I'm still looking for clarification here guys.... follow me here.. plus I just dont want the thread to die JUST yet, lol

@ felice
You previously posted this......




11. Ceech Gambino was a rising star among organized crime figures in Brooklyn, if he wouldn't have been arrested he would have become a mafia leader according to fbi. Gambino was a sicilian mafia leader and headed a group of about 30 sicilian mobsters


Now.... he was Torrettesi, right? I was under the impression he was Sicilian mafia, running Torretta family operations in NY with the Zitos, Manninos, and Carusos, and Varisco. Is that correct? Was Ciccio Gambino made into the American side? I was under the impression he wasnt, that he was running a SICILIAN MAFIA crew. Was this a Gambino decina then?


So when I saw Davi, being the head of the "Torrettesi", I'm thinking, ok.... the Torreta family has reestablished their transatlantic operations. Or maybe they were part of the he escapees too. It's like hes Ciccio Gambinos successor almost. Not necessarily for drugs, just organizational.

The idea that hes the head of a political faction, based off an ancestry from Torretta, but NOT an affiliation with the Torretta family...? Why would that be allowed? By the Luchesses too I'm asking. The Gambinos have all the family ties, but the Luchesses?

Why would the son, Sylvestro be the Torrettesi leader over his dad, the capo? Hes more charismatic? I'm having a hard time understanding WHAT hes the leader of. Guys who are under different crews?

This whole thing partly answers questions I've had about how this all is supposed to work in practice. I previously used the example of Rosario Gambinos beef in Philly. Did they have to contact Sicily first? Does he report to a capo? Direct to the administration? To the Gambinos? To fuckin Naimo? It's like hes under 3 families jurisdiction, yet not really under anyone. How does that shit even work?

(I've always wondered what happens if you are Sicilian mafia, in NY, not made, and get into a beef with an American wiseguy. Who sits for the sicilian at the table? Do they go get someone from Sicily? Is that practical? What if an American just robs the sicilians, like Sonny Red? Who do they turn to? )




You see this here. Davi is Gambino. Zito, is IN New York. You think they would have had a sitdown in NY and squashed it. Yet they have to contact Sicily. And you CANT call, so you gotta send someone. Who do you send? An American or Sicilian? Depends on the beef, I guess. But WHO makes the ruling? The boss in Torretta or the boss in NY? What if they are in conflict?






To an American, a guy from the other side is a zip, right? Do they CARE, WHAT part of Sicily hes from? The Americans, I mean? Is there like, a Sicilian faction, like a Passo Di Rigano faction, AND a Torretta faction? And they are very close, but separate? (This goes to Mannino acting independent and challenging John Gambino.) Or are they ALL, the Gambinos Sicilian faction, like one group? Is the Luchesse sicilian faction, also politically aligned with the Gambino Sicilian faction, to the point that they are subservient?


The shit is confusing. First Nino Inzerillo, head of the Sicilian faction. Conte, head of the Sicilian faction. Ciccio Gambino, head of a Sicilian faction. John Gambino, head of the Sicilian faction. Catalano, ditto. Then Naimos the head of Sicilian operations in the US, but kinda with the Luchesses. So was he over everyone sicilian in all 3 families?


This makes me kinda think of Naimo. How hes always described as the head of Sicilian mafia in America. It's never been clear to me what that means.
That would put him over Luchesse Sicilians, as well as Gambino and Bonnano sicilians too? While he answers to Riina? So did he take no orders from US bosses? How exactly that worked hasn't really been explained.

[B.]

(I've always wondered what happens if you are Sicilian mafia, in NY, not made, and get into a beef with an American wiseguy. Who sits for the sicilian at the table? Do they go get someone from Sicily? Is that practical? What if an American just robs the sicilians, like Sonny Red? Who do they turn to? )

We have a recent example of that. Roberto Settineri in Florida is officially with Santa Maria di Gesu but under the direction of the Gambino family, so when he got into an issue with the Colombo family, Gambino soldier Gaetano Napoli represented Settineri at the sitdown.

In context with the dispute, Settineri is like a Gambino associate but they also know he is more than that. They aren't autistic black-and-white thinkers, they understand nuance even though there is a certain protocol.

These guys aren't making it up as they go along. All of this is built into the rules and protocol of the mafia and sure circumstances change and sometimes rules are broken but overall it is consistent.

Thanks for keeping the thread going, haha... blows my mind this news plays second fiddle to podcast drama between former associates.

[B.]

Remember Cabrini the mafia is supposed to be a system of representation, not a strict command structure where people are giving "orders" to everyone all the time.

It seems more complicated than it is when we talk about the Sicilian mafia operating in the US, but let's throw out the Sicilian part:

- When a member of a US family visited or lived in an area where there was another US family, he had to check in and communicate his intention with the local family (preferably through his own family's leadership first).

- He would be expected not to step on the toes of the local family and in turn they would be willing to represent him in some matters even if he didn't transfer membership. He is a Cosa Nostra member operating in their area, period.

- If a big enough issue came up, I expect the member's family would send their own representative or he would be forced to leave, but anyone operating in another family's jurisdiction is operating "under" them and certain protocol must be followed. This protocol is not new, but time-honored throughout the history of the US and Sicilian mafia.

This plays out in NYC/NJ on a larger scale as you have entire factions of Sicilians and multiple US families, but it isn't fundamentally different.

[CabriniGreen]

(I've always wondered what happens if you are Sicilian mafia, in NY, not made, and get into a beef with an American wiseguy. Who sits for the sicilian at the table? Do they go get someone from Sicily? Is that practical? What if an American just robs the sicilians, like Sonny Red? Who do they turn to? )

We have a recent example of that. Roberto Settineri in Florida is officially with Santa Maria di Gesu but under the direction of the Gambino family, so when he got into an issue with the Colombo family, Gambino soldier Gaetano Napoli represented Settineri at the sitdown.

In context with the dispute, Settineri is like a Gambino associate but they also know he is more than that. They aren't autistic black-and-white thinkers, they understand nuance even though there is a certain protocol.

These guys aren't making it up as they go along. All of this is built into the rules and protocol of the mafia and sure circumstances change and sometimes rules are broken but overall it is consistent.

Thanks for keeping the thread going, haha... blows my mind this news plays second fiddle to podcast drama between former associates.

BRO....!!! Tell me about it....

[TommyGambino]

Is Santo zito the only zito made with the gambinos, or the only one we know about?

[B.]

Cabrini -- thought of something else that might help understand the situation from a Sicilian POV.

Sicilian pentiti have said a new member can be inducted into his hometown borgata by leaders from other borgatas even when there is nobody in attendance from the hometown borgata. Obviously the new member should be approved by the borgata he's being made into, as bosses of other families can't just show up and say, "By the way, we made this guy into your family for you. You're welcome" But it shows you how the administration can be handled by someone from another family. Maranzano basically did that too and and we know Frank Garofalo attended a SF family induction as a guest of honor.

It's not a perfect comparison, but the Sicilian mafia has strict affiliation yet there is also a fluidness because they see themselves as one organization. You have CWs who say that the Sicilian mafia and the US mafia aren't the same, but if you ask the current Gambino leadership or the former US guys who are now running Torretta and Ciaculli, I bet you'd get a different answer.

Anyway, maybe this helps give us a picture of why Sicilian members of the Gambino, Lucchese, and various Palermo families are all aligned in a faction in NYC that goes beyond their formal affiliation. That and their close personal/blood relationships, which is what glues them all together.

[CabriniGreen]

Calogero Mannino took his life last Sunday. He's the son of Giovanni Angelo, he was 41 years old, made member of the Torretta family. His brother Santo Salvatore is living in the Usa and he's a made member too, he was answering to Frank Calì. His name emerged many times in the last investigation but he was not incriminated

So Santo mannino is made gambino member?

We don't know, for sure he's made, probably in Torretta but now reporting to the Gambino family

It's like I said..... Torreta sicilian mafia members based in NY......

[CabriniGreen]

(I've always wondered what happens if you are Sicilian mafia, in NY, not made, and get into a beef with an American wiseguy. Who sits for the sicilian at the table? Do they go get someone from Sicily? Is that practical? What if an American just robs the sicilians, like Sonny Red? Who do they turn to? )

We have a recent example of that. Roberto Settineri in Florida is officially with Santa Maria di Gesu but under the direction of the Gambino family, so when he got into an issue with the Colombo family, Gambino soldier Gaetano Napoli represented Settineri at the sitdown.

In context with the dispute, Settineri is like a Gambino associate but they also know he is more than that. They aren't autistic black-and-white thinkers, they understand nuance even though there is a certain protocol.

.

See, this is why I found what Pennissi said interesting. When he said, " Well, we dont HAVE to recognize them"....

If you dont HAVE to, WHY did they then? That's one question, especially for the Luchesses. Especially if you maintain that the Luchesses were not primarily interested in the Sicilians drug rings. We see the deep familial ties between Sicily and NY with the Gambinos. But the Luchesses I think, potentially, was part of the political, conflict resolution between Sicily and NY. But that's just me...


Like what happens if a American mobster, REALLY pushes the envelope, like Violi did.





It's not surprising to me they picked a Napoli to represent him. Most likely the most " American" Sicilian they could find, much like Grillo was likely the most "Sicilian" of the Americans availible.


This is why I really believe certain Sicilians were strategically placed within the NY families, by way of selective initiation/ transfer... however we wanna call it.


Settinieri is a Sicilian mafia member. It's not really practical, to reach out to Sicily, everytime theres a beef.
(You would need a designated liaison, or something ...) Nor, can he just tolerate being subject to the whims of any American mobster. Like I'm sure the Colombo guy might have felt like Pennisi, like..." I dont HAVE to recognize YOU!". Like what if I'm made, and I just up and ROB Settinieri? In absence of that DEEP familial tie, like the Napolis, I dont think an American would pick the Sicilian over the American in a beef. But that's situational too....


SO, to avoid these messy, cumbersome interactions, I think they selectively made certain guys. Like the Napolis are present in Florida, so maybe that's enough there. But in the absence of a member of this web of families, I could see them making Settinieri, just to avoid all the confusion, and streamline the chain of command. They probably would let him do his thing, and if a beef arises, he can have proper representation. But I also think this works, only with the Gambinos, because they are family and so in lockstep with the Inzerillo clan.


I know hes a BIG bullshitter these days, but on Sammy's pod he told an interesting story, probably made up, but interesting nonetheless....


He was trying to run some gambling in Bensonhurst, and some Sicilian mafiosi tried telling him he was in violation, because he didnt get permission, or whatever. He goes to Persico, and Persico says, " They are fuckin nobodies"..... I remember thinking... yeah. They would be nobodies to him, he has no Sicilian ties. But if this was the Gambinos, they might treat these guys JUST like an American made guy. Political. The rules in one family ain't the same in another, neccesarily.


This is why I say its political, more so than hard inviolate rules.



Just some Random thoughts......

[CabriniGreen]

Cabrini -- thought of something else that might help understand the situation from a Sicilian POV.

Sicilian pentiti have said a new member can be inducted into his hometown borgata by leaders from other borgatas even when there is nobody in attendance from the hometown borgata. Obviously the new member should be approved by the borgata he's being made into, as bosses of other families can't just show up and say, "By the way, we made this guy into your family for you. You're welcome" But it shows you how the administration can be handled by someone from another family. Maranzano basically did that too and and we know Frank Garofalo attended a SF family induction as a guest of honor.

It's not a perfect comparison, but the Sicilian mafia has strict affiliation yet there is also a fluidness because they see themselves as one organization. You have CWs who say that the Sicilian mafia and the US mafia aren't the same, but if you ask the current Gambino leadership or the former US guys who are now running Torretta and Ciaculli, I bet you'd get a different answer.

Anyway, maybe this helps give us a picture of why Sicilian members of the Gambino, Lucchese, and various Palermo families are all aligned in a faction in NYC that goes beyond their formal affiliation. That and their close personal/blood relationships, which is what glues them all together.

On the bolded part......

That's what I've been saying about the whole Violi Rizzuto interaction. There was a set of " rules" for the Caruanas and Rizzutos in Montreal that didnt apply to the Inzerillos in NY and Philly. It wasnt a real rule, it was politics.The major difference being direct family ties between the organizations.


I consider BOTH clans to be progenitors of the modern organized crime clan structure. Blame my buddy who got me into crypto, I'll use an analogy. The Inzerillo, the Cuntreras, were like centralized nodes, contacts and points of reference for the Sicilian mafia as a WHOLE. Like the Caruana were conducting business for the whole Cupola, I feel like the Gambinos are the central reference point for at least Palermo, if not Sicily in general.

Ndrangheta took their modus operandi, and DECENTRALIZED it, so their entire organization operates on this model. Their South American contacts are much more decentralized, as opposed to having the Caruanas in Venezuela, organized into a single family, and handling everything. Once they went down, it seems like the Sicilian mafias ability to conduct transatlantic trafficking was greatly diminished. Too much centralization hurt the Caruanas once they took a big loss, I dont think they ever made it right.

The Inzerillos though, still seem to possess these contacts. They never, to my knowledge, fucked up a huge shipment like the Caruanas. I've always seen them, the Caruanas, and the Sicilian bosses as the real masters of that traffic.


My point being, this was the embryonic stage for the transatlantic mafia. The world got smaller. Sicilian clans were now looking at NY like it's just another territory. They were looking at it, how the NY guys look at the boroughs. Like... no one OWNS the boroughs. You can move about fluidly. But this was bound to create conflicts between the organizations, without clear distinctions. I suspect it's why we get all these " heads of the Sicilian factions". I cant understand the purpose of a Naimo, if the sicilians didnt have direct operations here.

Now, following this line of thinking..... under what circumstances would Passo Di Rigano or Torreta be allowed have a decina in NY? Does it HAVE to be a Gambino regime? Like, im really asking here. WAS Ciccio Gambino operating a Torreta family decina? Or Gambino family regime?


Also... on why I was focusing on the term " Torrettesi".
Take the Agrigento guys. They know Dominic Aquista. They refer to him as " good people from Agrigento". Theres no Agrigento family, right? Like a family CALLED the Agrigento family. Now, if they called him something like Favarese, like there IS a Favara family. That to me is a reference to a FAMILY, a organization, not geography or ancestry.

To us your Luchesse Brooklyn/ Statin Island example, imagine if the ex- Brooklyn turned Staten Island guys, instead of identifying as Brooklyn guys, up and started calling themselves " Parlermitani" or something, because their Great- Grand dad was from there? Does that sound right? Torretesi just sounds like a reference to Sicilian mafiosi affiliated with the Torretta family to me.













First a question.....

When exactly was this? A recent phenomenon? Or like... from earlier, like 30s or 40s? I ask precisely because it was more fluid back then. But I guess I answered my own question, you mentioned Garafolo, so like the 30s then?


Secondly, that seems very political and highly situational.

Like for example, say you are Ciccio Domingo, and you go inside. Mariano Asaro is strutting around Castellammare like hes the Boss. If you are Ciccio, you want a messenger you can trust, and a reliable point man in the streets, maybe a few others too. You want them made. Asaro " finds" reasons why they shouldn't be. So, you reach out to a neighboring boss within the madamento, say Marzana , and ask him to initiate these guys for you, and inform them afterwards.

I can see that. But I cant see a Trapani guy initiating someone from Caltanissetta. You end up with a Corleonesi type situation where the guys in your own family are loyal to another borgata. That's just not how you maintain or build power.


Like if that was the case, the Bonnanos could have simply had the Luppinos and Violis initiate Morena, and simply had them TELL him hes with the Bonnano family. They didnt do that, to maintain control, they did it themselves. You HAVE to.



This was way longer than I intended, lol. I havent caught up to the pods, so I cant chime in there yet.....forgive my run on thoughts lol

[stubbs]

Felice stated in another thread that Naimo’s role was more to watch over the Sicilain zips in the US, not to control them.

Because the Inzerillos and the others from those Palermo families were banished from Sicily in the 80s, they had to check in with Naimo so he could keep an eye on them. And since Naimo was aligned with Riina and the Corleonesi, it was a way to make sure the Inzerillo faction was in fact in the US and they weren’t trying to go back to Sicily to get revenge against Riina.

So it seemed less like they reported to Naimo in terms of what they did on the streets in the US, and more like he was just keeping an eye on them for the bosses back in Sicily so they wouldn’t start another war.

But, feel free to correct me Felice!