What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

[AlexfromSouth]

I think what B hinted at in an earlier post about "Genovese could at first only count on two of the six crews" may be a correct observation. It´s possible Valachi informed Maas about the two crews and Maas added "of the six crews" in his narrative becuase that was what he thought the Genoveses had (after seeing the Genovese chart shown during the Senate Hearings). I cannot believe the Genoveses only had six crews around that time. In a report dated from 1969, the FBI had 17 individuals listed as Genovese crew leaders in 1960.

A 1969 report detailed the administration and captains in 1960? Can you post a link because during the 1960's is when these crews began to splinter inter smaller cells, either in reaction to the FBI's public display or because the boss decided to do so. All the families crews splintered starting in the 60's.

The report is dated March 1969 and includes several Families. Around 1962/1963, an informant advised the FBI that Carillo, DeFeo, Tieri, Celambrino and Celano had been made official captains. Apparently they had been acting captains (with crews and not acting for somebody else) who were given the status of offical captains by Vito Genovese around 62/63. They have previously all been under Mike Miranda so my guess is they had been acting since Miranda was made consigliere, gradually taking in members who had previously been under Carfano, Delducca (who died in 1960) and possibly others. In the report these five are listed as captains.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html ... 3&tab=page

The 1960 raport is missing the brooklyn faction of the Luccheses, so thats 10 crews.

[Pogo The Clown]

I'd assume consigliere came about once the families started to swell in size... I have a hard time believing Luciano created it, but maybe it is one aspect of the myth that is true. Magaddino didn't have a consigliere during his time as boss... not sure about Profaci except for the mentions of Buffa.

Didn't Bill Bonanno (through his father no doubt) have Charles LoCicero as Profaci's Consiglieri in 1931?


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

"Had been made" implies it was a fairly recent change and if all these men were under Miranda then they all came from one original crew. Unless you're thinking that these men were taken out of Miranda's crew and placed over already existing crews which I don't see any evidence for. It would make more sense that his crew was broken up into smaller decine upon Miranda's promotion to consig. A similar event occured in NJ with Vinnie Ocean Palermo crew being split upon his becoming acting.

But I seen the file and understand where you're coming from. I don't have all the answers nor pretend to be the definitive expert. Here's a quick key which may assist us:

https://s3.postimg.org/8nykfzk37/genchartcrews.jpg

[johnny_scootch]

In reference to the larger and smaller crews maybe this is where the subtle difference in the label of capo regime and/or capo decina comes in. Just a thought

[Angelo Santino]

In reference to the larger and smaller crews maybe this is where the subtle difference in the label of capo regime and/or capo decina comes in. Just a thought

Possible. I don't know when "caporegime" became popular but it wasn't used in Sicily. And today is used interchangably with capodecina/captain/lieutenant/skipper... If you're suggesting that there were six Caporegime with capidecina under these six crews I think that's plausible. The problem is Valachi (and almost every informant) don't describe the setup like that.

[HairyKnuckles]

"Had been made" implies it was a fairly recent change and if all these men were under Miranda then they all came from one original crew. Unless you're thinking that these men were taken out of Miranda's crew and placed over already existing crews which I don't see any evidence for. It would make more sense that his crew was broken up into smaller decine upon Miranda's promotion to consig. A similar event occured in NJ with Vinnie Ocean Palermo crew being split upon his becoming acting.

But I seen the file and understand where you're coming from. I don't have all the answers nor pretend to be the definitive expert.

None of us could possibly have all the answers. It´s not like the bosses kept a loggfile and are now available to us. I wish they did though. And yeah, It looks to me that Miranda´s crew was split up between the five mentioned above but even before that, the Genoveses did have more than six crews. 17 individuals are listed as crew leaders in 1960. Not counting the five who had previously been under Miranda, that´s 12 captains. Not six.

[B.]

I think what B hinted at in an earlier post about "Genovese could at first only count on two of the six crews" may be a correct observation. It´s possible Valachi informed Maas about the two crews and Maas added "of the six crews" in his narrative becuase that was what he thought the Genoveses had (after seeing the Genovese chart shown during the Senate Hearings). I cannot believe the Genoveses only had six crews around that time. In a report dated from 1969, the FBI had 17 individuals listed as Genovese crew leaders in 1960.

A 1969 report detailed the administration and captains in 1960? Can you post a link because during the 1960's is when these crews began to splinter inter smaller cells, either in reaction to the FBI's public display or because the boss decided to do so. All the families crews splintered starting in the 60's.

The report is dated March 1969 and includes several Families. Around 1962/1963, an informant advised the FBI that Carillo, DeFeo, Tieri, Celambrino and Celano had been made official captains. Apparently they had been acting captains (with crews and not acting for somebody else) who were given the status of offical captains by Vito Genovese around 62/63. They have previously all been under Mike Miranda so my guess is they had been acting since Miranda was made consigliere, gradually taking in members who had previously been under Carfano, Delducca (who died in 1960) and possibly others. In the report these five are listed as captains.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html ... 3&tab=page

If they had acting captains who weren't necessarily filling in for an absent official captain but simply helping to manage the large crews then that may be the explanation we are looking for. Benny Lombardo was said to be acting for Coppola by the early 1960s when Coppola had moved to FL full-time, but not sure when that arrangement started.

edit: speaking of Celano, a 1962 report said that Gyp DeCarlo claimed that Alfred "Poagy" Toriello held a position of leadership in the family and that Frank Celano was under him. So Toriello may have been a captain at the same time as the well-known six. There is also info from the same period that suggests Tony "the Shiek" Carillo was a leader in the family but maybe you know more about who he succeeded... I know I've seen him referenced as a captain at a later point. Another note, but in 1962 Gyp DeCarlo told an associate that Genovese could count on the support of Pete DeFeo, Tommy Ryan, and DeCarlo, but could not count on Miranda, Carillo, and Boiardo.

Pretty sure "Pordanor" is a butchered version of Boiardo. He says he was rich and is still active in Newark at the time of Valachi's writing, plus says that the Newark men were trying to kill "Richie". I don't think he's talking about them wanting to kill two people, but a single individual called "Richie Pordanor", who is Boiardo.

Kind of funny that Valachi is one of the only sources that had direct contact with the Newark family and even with what little he had to say we can figure who some members were. I don't think he ever references the Elizabeth family or any of their members.

Valachi has referenced a "Patty Delcha" as an early Gambino member in New Jersey by 1930. Apparently Delcha's uncle was the chief of police in Palisades and Delcha owned the Top-Hat nightclub. He said he'd be 63 or 64 if he were still alive in the early 1960s. Anyone heard of him? I've been hoping to find more info on the Gambino family's beginnings in NJ and whether or not there's crossover with the Newark family or if the Gambinos themselves had their own crew(s) there pre-1940s. Joe Paterno's father was a capodecina in NJ (Joe was promoted to captain of this crew when his father died) but not sure how far he goes back.

edit: Limey has him as "Patrick Delchop" (1897-1957).

[B.]

-p443 As B noted, he said Moretti was acting boss then Costello. No mention of that other guy who's name he couldn't recall at the Senate Hearing.

Where the hell did this Che Gusage/Gusae from then.

For Moretti, I believe Valachi implied he was acting boss after Luciano was deported, not sent to prison. The wording is confusing but the timeline and the context put Moretti as acting boss in the mid-late 1940s. Seems he was acting boss at the time when Valachi got into his beef with Frank Luciano, as he told Moretti not to tell Vito about it as Vito had just returned from Italy and Valachi didn't want to burden him. Would assume Moretti had a higher position than Vito at the time if Valachi petitioned him to keep the beef on the down low.

Not to go too far down the old Chee Gusae rabbit hole, but some years back JD posted a doc where the transcriber interpreted the name as "Sheik". That led me to research Tony the Sheik Carillo's background a bit to see if he had a father or relative who may have fit the bill and used the same nickname, but I didn't find anything. At the very least it's another potential lead outside of the Francesco/Frank/Cheech direction.

[Antiliar]

It also seems that if Chee Gusae was an acting boss in the 1930s he would have had to have been some sort of caporegime first.

[Angelo Santino]

And yeah, It looks to me that Miranda´s crew was split up between the five mentioned above but even before that, the Genoveses did have more than six crews. 17 individuals are listed as crew leaders in 1960. Not counting the five who had previously been under Miranda, that´s 12 captains. Not six.

That's not taking into account the crew of Eboli and the potential possibility that they were broken up along with Miranda's upon his elevation. Valachi was off the street in 1959.

It also seems that if Chee Gusae was an acting boss in the 1930s he would have had to have been some sort of caporegime first.

That would make sense but the same could be said for Frank Costello and there's no evidence he ever ran a crew.

If information comes out that there were more than 6 crews before 1960 I'm open to it. I just have a hard time understanding the disbelief that there were only 6 crews. We don't have that many Genovese informants and the one we do have was quite adamant about it. I understand the argument that it could have been a Maas rendition but that doesn't explain Valachi's testimony and chart. I respect everyone's input here and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Going back to the 1920's, I'd argue the Pellegrino, Yale and Moretti crews were 1920 additions.

The East Harlem Terranova crew, the lower East Side Luciano-Greco crews were most likely part of the original Corleonesi group before the Split.

If I were to take a shot at it:

East Harlem: Joe Morello, Fortunato Lo Monte, Tomasso Lo Monte, Nick Terranova, Vincent Terranova, Ciro Terranova.

Lower East Side: Giuseppe Boscarino, Salvatore Loiacano, Salvatore Mauro, Chas. Luciano.

[Lupara]

It needs to said that the 1963 chart of the Genoveses only includes about 1/3 of the family (if we go by the 300 number). This means Valachi didn't know or had information of the other 200 or so members. Are we to believe that these remaining members are to be divided among the 6 crews listed?

Btw, this is definitely one of the most interesting threads I've ever read in my history on these mob forums. Great analysis as usual by B. and the other experts.

[Antiliar]

According to sources in "Frank Costello: Prime Minister of the Underworld," Costello did have some sort of crew in the 1920s. He was a major bootlegger and allegedly a millionaire. The only name I can recall is his brother Eddie, but there were others. Do I know if any of them were made back then? No. It's not that we don't have evidence that he ran a crew, we also don't have evidence that he didn't. We don't have evidence either way due to a lack of information. We might have some names from the trial transcripts from the 1925-26 case involving the Costello brothers and Big Bill Dwyer, but we wouldn't know if they were made.

It may have also been the case that Dominick "Terry Burns" Didato was a caporegime since he was important enough to have been considered a threat to Vito Genovese. Also, if Sandino Pandolfo was the consigliere when Costello was the boss, does that mean he was also a caporegime? It seems likely, but if he was it could have been after 1931. So there's four people (Gusae, Costello, Didato and Pandolfo) who *may* have been early 1930s caporegimes.

So I'm not saying that Valachi was wrong about there being only six crews (assuming that's accurate and not an interpretation from Peter Maas), but I think we have to allow for the possibility that he could have made a mistake. After all, he was recalling events from 30 years prior and he didn't know everyone in his crime family. There could have also been some old-timers who were semi-retired that Valachi was unaware of.

There are mistakes in Valachi's book (the original Real Deal). There are tons of spelling and grammatical errors. There are run-on sentences and paragraphs that go on for two pages. There are some chronological errors where he's off by several years. He also has a tendency to jump back and forth from recent events to 1930-32, sometimes without warning. There are also factual errors. He seemed to believe that during the war the Gagliano Family and the Maranzano borgata were literally one Family. He says that Maranzano made several leaders bosses when instead he was recognizing them, not installing them. He said that Maranzano invented the caporegime position and before that were only boss, underboss and soldier. We know that it existed at least as far back as the 1890s, maybe 1870s, probably 1860s. From Gentile we know that Masseria had a consigliere named Saverio Pollaccia, but Valachi seems unaware of him. So based on that I think a dose of skepticism is healthy.

[Pogo The Clown]

Again good stuff guys. For what its worth Bill Bonanno (by way of his father I'm sure) had Costello as the Consiglieri in 1931.


Pogo

[Antiliar]

Again good stuff guys. For what its worth Bill Bonanno (by way of his father I'm sure) had Costello as the Consiglieri in 1931.


Pogo

The book is a little confusing. In one chart Costello isn't the consigliere until maybe 1936 (page 112 of the Kindle edition). I don't recall anything directly in the text that said he was consig. in 1931 either. On 110 it says he was the consigliere when Luciano was sent to prison. So maybe he was, or maybe there was someone before him for a couple years who died or went away. Interestingly, the same chart has Genovese as the acting boss before Costello (and on page 99 in the text).

[Pogo The Clown]

Thanks. I haven't read the book and was just going by what had been posted about it on the forums.


Pogo