How Many Mafia Families Were There? 20,24,26???

[sdeitche]

The Outfit, per se, didn't have interests but individual members like Anthony Accardo, Sam Giancana, Johnny Roselli, Joseph Aiuppa, Jackie Cerone, Angelo LaPietra, etc.

What is this supposed to mean?

Once again, as Capeci explained, each of the families didn't get together (like a board of directors) and make a collective decision to get involved in a casino. Rather, individual mobsters chose to invest or not as the opportunity arose. Joe Prafaci or Jack Dragna, for example, never had any casino investments.

I can tell you when it came to Havana, Trafficante didn't ask anyone's permission to invest.

Wasn't it considered his territory? Did Lansky et al needed to formally ask for his persmission to operate there?

No, though the Tampa family had operations and interests there dating back to Prohibition, so did assorted members from NY. It was kind of an open city/country, like Miami. But also, like Miami, Trafficante had an out-sized role and was paid respect accordingly.

[maxiestern11]

The Outfit, per se, didn't have interests but individual members like Anthony Accardo, Sam Giancana, Johnny Roselli, Joseph Aiuppa, Jackie Cerone, Angelo LaPietra, etc.

What is this supposed to mean?

Once again, as Capeci explained, each of the families didn't get together (like a board of directors) and make a collective decision to get involved in a casino. Rather, individual mobsters chose to invest or not as the opportunity arose. Joe Prafaci or Jack Dragna, for example, never had any casino investments.

I can tell you when it came to Havana, Trafficante didn't ask anyone's permission to invest.

Wasn't it considered his territory? Did Lansky et al needed to formally ask for his persmission to operate there?

No, though the Tampa family had operations and interests there dating back to Prohibition, so did assorted members from NY. It was kind of an open city/country, like Miami. But also, like Miami, Trafficante had an out-sized role and was paid respect accordingly.

I def agree with that assessment

[Grouchy Sinatra]

Not really. Genovese have always been a powerhouse and a resilient one at that. During the 60s and 70s they were up there. A big reason why The Outfit were masters of corruption is because they took advantage of a corrupt machine that predates them.

Between Costello and Chin, the Genovese were in a slump. All about Chicago and the Gambinos during that time.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

And I’d venture to say that NO crew, Chicago, New York or any other place lived in a vacuum, all cooperated and “accommodated” each other. And some of your points I’d agree with; Hollywood for example, Teamsters, etc. but even that strength worked in “accommodation” to NYC.

Not after Uncle Frank retired. Chicago honored old arrangements in their rackets out west but didn't give a shit about anybody else in NY.

For instance a Jackie Presser, although coming out of where? Cleveland I think, or Fitzsimmons, or even Hoffa originally out of Detroit actually..... those families who “controlled” those candidates, went to NYC - before the “commission” to receive permission to push and support those men for higher office! Otherwise, they wouldn’t get Commission (or national) backing.

The Commission was designed to settle disputes, and Chicago always sat on it. Chicago didn't have to check in with anyone to corrupt union officials in the midwest or California as long as they didn't already belong to NY, which Pesser didn't. Everyone shared Fitzsimmons because he went back to Hoffa. Allen Dorfman was key in the 70s and he belonged to Chicago.

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NYC dominated the country! 1930, 1940, 1950, [1960, 1970], 1980....... each decade with the exception MAYBE of the last 1-2 decades because things are all screwed up across the whole country from LE pressure!

Actually you have it quite backward. NY dominates what's left of the mob in the past 20 years but up until the 80s Chicago had their slice of most of the rackets west of them and didn't share anything with NY aside from preexisting arrangements.

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[and we know this from surveillance and informer testimony from the likes of Lonardo in Cleveland who said he visited NY and Fat Tony in Harlem (Genovese) for approval on Teamsters selections - and Tony talked and discussed other “options” with chicago..... Why? Because the NYC families - The Commission - controlled such selection] and even if NYC acquiesced to Chicago’s choice for a candidate, it was only because their explanation to NYC was a more intelligent choice so Fat Tony and company agreed.

Cleveland had a lot of NY influence but in the 60s and 70s Accardo was not checking in with Anthony Salerno. lol. He only honored the arrangements with Lansky's guys, most of whom died off. And he probably did so by choice. Chicago had the muscle to go independent during this time. The 70s were not a peak time for the NY mob. The Gambinos were the most powerful family and they were in their own cold war between the Dellocroce and Castellano factions.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

Having looked at an in depth analysis of the Giancana's impact on Kennedy's election, the impact is quite negligible. There's no real evidence that Outfit territories or controlled unions voted any more heavily for the Democrats in 1960 than they usually would

It was never really about Illinois, that's always been disputed and widely believed to be an urban legend. But the primary in West Virginia was real and well documented. Joe Kennedy did reach out to Sinatra. Sinatra did reach out to Giancana. Giancana did use several measures to sway the mostly protestant vote in WV to Kennedy, from union influence.

[eboli]

Not really. Genovese have always been a powerhouse and a resilient one at that. During the 60s and 70s they were up there. A big reason why The Outfit were masters of corruption is because they took advantage of a corrupt machine that predates them.

Between Costello and Chin, the Genovese were in a slump. All about Chicago and the Gambinos during that time.

Give some factual evidence to back that up. Apocryphal statements don't mean much.

[chin_gigante]

Between Costello and Chin, the Genovese were in a slump. All about Chicago and the Gambinos during that time.

Dominick Napolitano describes Frank Tieri as being the power on the Commission in the late 70s

[scagghiuni]

Dominick Napolitano describes Frank Tieri as being the power on the Commission in the late 70s

i thought the official boss was philip lombardo anyway

[chin_gigante]

That's a whole other debate

[Confederate]

Not really. Genovese have always been a powerhouse and a resilient one at that. During the 60s and 70s they were up there. A big reason why The Outfit were masters of corruption is because they took advantage of a corrupt machine that predates them.

Between Costello and Chin, the Genovese were in a slump. All about Chicago and the Gambinos during that time.

Give some factual evidence to back that up. Apocryphal statements don't mean much.

"Groucho" says the opposite of what everyone else knows on purpose. He doesn't need any proof. If you told "Groucho" that everybody on this Forum knows that 2 plus 2 equals 4, he would say "That's only your speculation", In my universe it equals 5, (so he can argue with everybody). He does the same thing in the Social/Political Threads.

[Wiseguy]

Between Costello and Chin, the Genovese were in a slump. All about Chicago and the Gambinos during that time.

Perhaps that's been your belief all these years but simply repeating it isn't going to convince anyone else or make it come true.

Not after Uncle Frank retired. Chicago honored old arrangements in their rackets out west but didn't give a shit about anybody else in NY.

There you go again, thinking all the Genovese family's power was centered on Costello. It's like you came up on old myths and never learned anything else. Nor want to for that matter.

The Commission was designed to settle disputes, and Chicago always sat on it. Chicago didn't have to check in with anyone to corrupt union officials in the midwest or California as long as they didn't already belong to NY, which Pesser didn't. Everyone shared Fitzsimmons because he went back to Hoffa. Allen Dorfman was key in the 70s and he belonged to Chicago.

For the record, as Capeci explained, in the 1960s the ties between families, including New York and Chicago, started weakening. The Outfit started missing Commission meetings and it eventually got to the point later on where, while they technically had a Commission seat, it became a case of the Commission being primarily a New York enterprise, while the Outfit had a certain jurisdiction over things west of Chicago. The Buffalo, Detroit, and Philadelphia families lost their seats with the deaths of Magadinno in 1974, Zerilli in 1977, and Bruno in 1980.

The 70s were not a peak time for the NY mob.

The absolute peak time for all the families, and the mob in general, was the 1950s. But the 1960s and 1970s were still good for the mob overall before things changed in the 1980s. I'm not sure why you think the 1970s were not a peak time for New York but were for Chicago.

The Gambinos were the most powerful family and they were in their own cold war between the Dellocroce and Castellano factions.

Wait, why were the Gambinos the most powerful family? Oh, because Carlo "was the man," right?

[chin_gigante]

Did some digging through a few FBI files and my copy of Donnie Brasco and got these pieces of information regarding the Gambinos and Genoveses in the late 1960s through 1970s.

- At a meeting in February 1967, acting boss Paul Castellano indicated that Carlo Gambino at that point was ‘the most powerful “boss” in LCN’, citing disarray in the Bonanno family, Joe Colombo’s subservience to Gambino, the relationship between Gambino and Tommy Luchese and Luchese’s illness.

- Size of the families in the 1970s:

• Gambino:

1972 FBI report – 201 identified, 18 suspected
1977 FBI report – 196 identified

• Genovese:

1972 FBI report – 198 identified, 32 suspected
1977 FBI report – 199 identified[/list][/list]

- October 1973 report:

• ‘Sources advise that GAMBINO is engaged in all forms of criminal activity and exerts some influence in the other four New York LCN “Families.”’

- During the Colombo split of November 1976, the faction supporting Joe Yacovelli to become boss approached Frank Tieri and a Commission meeting was organised. Before approaching Tieri, Yacovelli had sought Tony Corallo’s advice. By December 1976, Tieri had spoken with ‘a Chicago member’ of the Commission and it was decided that the Bonanno, Gambino, Genovese and Luchese families would decide the outcome of the Colombo dispute. Tieri felt Yacovelli had stepped out of line by bringing the dispute out of the Colombo family and that he was ‘wrong in this situation’. Tieri stated that the Commission would rule against whichever Colombo faction spilt first blood.

- January 1977 report:

• ‘Sources advised that whoever heads the Gambino family [Castellano or Dellacroce] will not have the power over the other families that CARLO GAMBINO had in the past.’

- Donnie Brasco:

• Regarding the Bonannos seeking to operate vending machines in Milwaukee, Pistone describes Tieri as the ‘reigning chief of the Commission’ in early 1979.

• Dominick Napolitano reported that Tieri was no longer the power on the Commission by late 1980.

‘The next time Sonny [Napolitano] came to Florida, he brought news of a shake-up in the Commission. “They knocked down Funzi Tieri,” he tells me. He said the power was now Paul Castellano, Neil Dellacroce, and Joe Gallo – the top guns of the Gambino family. “They were given the power and are handling it properly.”’

[chin_gigante]

A couple of other things:

From a Life Magazine after Genovese's desth there is mention of a conversation between Accardo and Giancana about a Commission vote in 1959 that indicated Genovese was the most influential member at that time.

Also important to note regarding Gambino-Genovese relations in the late 1960s that Tommy Eboli was actively trying to prevent the Gambinos from taking over Genovese operations in garbage and nightclubs and was frustrated with Jerry Catena, who he perceived as bending over for Gambino. The Genoveses were also referring to the Gambinos as degenerates around this time and it's important to note that at the February 1967 meeting Castellano made no mention of the family having sway over the Genoveses

[Wiseguy]

Did some digging through a few FBI files and my copy of Donnie Brasco and got these pieces of information regarding the Gambinos and Genoveses in the late 1960s through 1970s.

- At a meeting in February 1967, acting boss Paul Castellano indicated that Carlo Gambino at that point was ‘the most powerful “boss” in LCN’, citing disarray in the Bonanno family, Joe Colombo’s subservience to Gambino, the relationship between Gambino and Tommy Luchese and Luchese’s illness.

- Size of the families in the 1970s:

• Gambino:

1972 FBI report – 201 identified, 18 suspected
1977 FBI report – 196 identified

• Genovese:

1972 FBI report – 198 identified, 32 suspected
1977 FBI report – 199 identified[/list][/list]

- October 1973 report:

• ‘Sources advise that GAMBINO is engaged in all forms of criminal activity and exerts some influence in the other four New York LCN “Families.”’

- During the Colombo split of November 1976, the faction supporting Joe Yacovelli to become boss approached Frank Tieri and a Commission meeting was organised. Before approaching Tieri, Yacovelli had sought Tony Corallo’s advice. By December 1976, Tieri had spoken with ‘a Chicago member’ of the Commission and it was decided that the Bonanno, Gambino, Genovese and Luchese families would decide the outcome of the Colombo dispute. Tieri felt Yacovelli had stepped out of line by bringing the dispute out of the Colombo family and that he was ‘wrong in this situation’. Tieri stated that the Commission would rule against whichever Colombo faction spilt first blood.

- January 1977 report:

• ‘Sources advised that whoever heads the Gambino family [Castellano or Dellacroce] will not have the power over the other families that CARLO GAMBINO had in the past.’

- Donnie Brasco:

• Regarding the Bonannos seeking to operate vending machines in Milwaukee, Pistone describes Tieri as the ‘reigning chief of the Commission’ in early 1979.

• Dominick Napolitano reported that Tieri was no longer the power on the Commission by late 1980.

‘The next time Sonny [Napolitano] came to Florida, he brought news of a shake-up in the Commission. “They knocked down Funzi Tieri,” he tells me. He said the power was now Paul Castellano, Neil Dellacroce, and Joe Gallo – the top guns of the Gambino family. “They were given the power and are handling it properly.”’

Interesting info. Though, keep in mind that it seems to relate to who was the most powerful boss at a given time.

I'm the early 2000s, Massino was considered the most powerful boss (the rest were in prison) but that didn't mean the Bonannos were the most powerful family.

If the claim is that Carlo Gambino waa the most powerful boss during the 1960s and into the 1970s, I would agree. But that's a different argument. And, during that period of 1980 to 1981, Castellano may have been the most powerful boss. But when Chin assumed control of the family, they were equals.

[Lupara]

The Outfit, per se, didn't have interests but individual members like Anthony Accardo, Sam Giancana, Johnny Roselli, Joseph Aiuppa, Jackie Cerone, Angelo LaPietra, etc.

What is this supposed to mean?

Once again, as Capeci explained, each of the families didn't get together (like a board of directors) and make a collective decision to get involved in a casino. Rather, individual mobsters chose to invest or not as the opportunity arose. Joe Prafaci or Jack Dragna, for example, never had any casino investments.

I can tell you when it came to Havana, Trafficante didn't ask anyone's permission to invest.

Wasn't it considered his territory? Did Lansky et al needed to formally ask for his persmission to operate there?

No, though the Tampa family had operations and interests there dating back to Prohibition, so did assorted members from NY. It was kind of an open city/country, like Miami. But also, like Miami, Trafficante had an out-sized role and was paid respect accordingly.

Thanks!