Mob Talk Sitdown 23

[Frank]

I'm the ONLY one casting doubt... on certain aspects of the narrative. But as it stands, he's boss, no argument.

You stirred it up? Haha...

Now a real debate would be whether Scarfo was still officially the boss at the time of his death.

Philly Family circa 2010

Boss - Nicodemo Scarfo (imprisoned)
Defacto Boss - Joseph Merlino (imprisoned)
Acting Defacto Boss - Joseph Ligambi

That's really an interesting thought. Was Scarfo still technically the official boss? Didn't Amuso still consider Scarfo as boss of Philadelphia? Even though the Commission was not what it used to be, Amuso was still on it. I guess it you would have to go all the way back to John Gambino backing Stanfa as boss, or was it really acting boss? I would tend to think that Scarfo's era as official boss ended with Stanfa becoming official boss or before. That's what is considered by all to be the fact. But Amuso, being who he is, saying Scarfo is still boss can open up a debate.

[B.]

I'm the ONLY one casting doubt... on certain aspects of the narrative. But as it stands, he's boss, no argument.

You stirred it up? Haha...

Now a real debate would be whether Scarfo was still officially the boss at the time of his death.

Philly Family circa 2010

Boss - Nicodemo Scarfo (imprisoned)
Defacto Boss - Joseph Merlino (imprisoned)
Acting Defacto Boss - Joseph Ligambi

That's really an interesting thought. Was Scarfo still technically the official boss? Didn't Amuso still consider Scarfo as boss of Philadelphia? Even though the Commission was not what it used to be, Amuso was still on it. I guess it you would have to go all the way back to John Gambino backing Stanfa as boss, or was it really acting boss? I would tend to think that Scarfo's era as official boss ended with Stanfa becoming official boss or before. That's what is considered by all to be the fact. But Amuso, being who he is, saying Scarfo is still boss can open up a debate.

Yeah, I was mostly joking, but as someone who is fascinated by the "official" rules and protocol opposed to the defacto/practical/"colloquial" way of seeing things, we found out from that indictment that the Lucchese administration (presumably because of Scarfo's friend Amuso) still recognized Scarfo as the official boss. It would be interesting to know what the other families' stance on Philly was from the time Scarfo went to prison up until 2010 or 2011 when that info was current.

We know from DiLeonardo and Natale that Gotti ordered the Gambinos not to recognize the Philly family in the early 1990s. We have heard that John Gambino backed his friend John Stanfa, but Gambino was an imprisoned around this time and I believe was demoted from captain shortly after, so his backing wouldn't have total authority in NY. I would be curious of Gotti backed Stanfa while simultaneously not recognizing Philly -- I wouldn't put it past him, but it would open up some questions about Stanfa's legitimacy. From what Natale said, he and Merlino used the Gambino's stance on not recognizing Philly as ammunition against Stanfa.

Of course on every practical level Stanfa was the boss, then Natale/Merlino, followed by Merlino/Ligambi and there is no question that the Philly family post-1990 internally did not recognize Scarfo, but would be interesting to know more about the NYC families as well as the imprisoned Scarfo-era soldiers. Did Joe Grande always recognize Scarfo, or did he get swayed back into recognizing him later? When did Pungitore embrace the Ligambi/Merlino leadership? Scarfo was said to be very popular with the membership, especially the younger members. Leonetti and DelGiorno trashed Scarfo after they flipped, while Caramandi (the most honest witness, in my opinion) said he loved Scarfo.

EDIT:

Just saw Dack's post in another thread and thought it would fit in with the above:

The more interesting question would be, when did the New York families recognize Joey (and Ralph) as boss? My guess would be each one at different times considering the state of LCN. The issue was still in flux when Ligambi becomes street boss, probably enough that Long John thought he could make a move. Enough that Ricci was willing to back Caprio in a crazy scheme to kill Joeys guys while Joey was facing trial in that coke case. The Lukes seem like the last hold out but they were even on board when Jr. got demoted.

These are good questions. Long John told Caramandi in prison in the mid-1980s that he had arranged for his son George to be under one of the New York families if he ever got out of prison, but he didn't specify. Martorano lived near the Gambino brothers and I believe had connections to that family through them. Would be interesting to know if he had the "backing" of any NYC families or individual members from those families when he tried to take over in the 2000s, especially given what he had previously said about his son.

The Gambino brothers backed Albert Pontani as acting boss when Scarfo went away and then John Stanfa as Scarfo's successor, so wouldn't be terribly surprising if they gave even some verbal support of Martorano at some point. He was initially believed to be making a play to take over the family from prison in the mid-80s and hoped to do so after getting his appeal, which took longer than expected. Fresolone talks about how Martorano was believed to have scared Caramandi into flipping on Scarfo in order to take down the leadership and pave the way to taking over. Even if Martorano was running off the fumes of whatever NYC support he had by the time of his appeal many years later, there could be something to this. Interesting too how John Gambino continued to be the liaison with Philly into the 2010s.

The Ricci / Caprio plot also brings up some interesting questions. Was any motivation / justification for the plot rooted in the NYC guys refusing to accept the Merlino / Ligambi leadership?

Scarfo or not, would be interesting to know if this was a factor in any of these plots.

[Stroccos]

I'm the ONLY one casting doubt... on certain aspects of the narrative. But as it stands, he's boss, no argument.

You stirred it up? Haha...

Now a real debate would be whether Scarfo was still officially the boss at the time of his death.

Philly Family circa 2010

Boss - Nicodemo Scarfo (imprisoned)
Defacto Boss - Joseph Merlino (imprisoned)
Acting Defacto Boss - Joseph Ligambi

That's really an interesting thought. Was Scarfo still technically the official boss? Didn't Amuso still consider Scarfo as boss of Philadelphia? Even though the Commission was not what it used to be, Amuso was still on it. I guess it you would have to go all the way back to John Gambino backing Stanfa as boss, or was it really acting boss? I would tend to think that Scarfo's era as official boss ended with Stanfa becoming official boss or before. That's what is considered by all to be the fact. But Amuso, being who he is, saying Scarfo is still boss can open up a debate.

The Ricci / Caprio plot also brings up some interesting questions. Was any motivation / justification for the plot rooted in the NYC guys refusing to accept the Merlino / Ligambi leadership?

Scarfo or not, would be interesting to know if this was a factor in any of these plots.

Scarfo jr more then likely paid his way into the luccese family , the wiretaps of scarfo sr pressing his son for the payoff via his cousin who would viit scarfo sr often

ralph Natale played somewhat of a role in the plot to Kill Ligambi/borgersi/mazzone, He was directing/advising dambrosia from prison , scarfo wasnt a factor

[B.]

Not that Scarfo would have been a direct factor, but the idea is that multiple New York families may not have recognized the sitting Philadelphia administration as official or otherwise legitimate.

[Stroccos]

Not that Scarfo would have been a direct factor, but the idea is that multiple New York families may not have recognized the sitting Philadelphia administration as official or otherwise legitimate.

Caprio testified that new York didn't recognize ligambi
From i understand Ligambi had no connenction to New york at that time h , is it possible Ralph Natale was reconized as boss until he flipped? He somewhat plots a revolt with the Newark faction , with the backing of 2 nyc families

I am surpised ligambi didnt whack beeps for allegelly being in on the plot or frenchie ?

[Pogo The Clown]

Was Natale involved in that plot? He had already flipped by then.


Pogo

[SILENT PARTNERZ]

Not that Scarfo would have been a direct factor, but the idea is that multiple New York families may not have recognized the sitting Philadelphia administration as official or otherwise legitimate.

Caprio testified that new York didn't recognize ligambi
From i understand Ligambi had no connenction to New york at that time h , is it possible Ralph Natale was reconized as boss until he flipped? He somewhat plots a revolt with the Newark faction , with the backing of 2 nyc families

I am surpised ligambi didnt whack beeps for allegelly being in on the plot or frenchie ?

Did the Gambino's recognize Ligambi as acting/boss by the time the lunch
was recorded by Stefanelli where Ligambi; Scoops Licata & John Gambino, and the
other Gambinos were present? Stands to reason they did, or why meet with at that
level.

[dack2001]

Natale was definitely aware or intimately involved in that plot. They recorded him encouraging Caprio and also Danny D'Ambrosia to go forward with taking over. I suspect that Ralph's old friend Ron Turchi was part of that plot as well. Think about it, Pete Caprio taking over in South Philly? No way but I could see the Turchi being the Philly end of that plot, egged on by Ralph.

Also, there was an article about Danny D'Ambrosia's father going up to Joe Ligambi at a party begging him not to kill his son. I doubt Joe Ligambi would want to kill somebody because they took Ralph's prison calls. My guess is that the defense got discovery in Joey's case, which had Danny D and Ralph discussing what was coming with Pete Caprio. I'd guess by 2004 when Gongs was eliminated, the New York families had seen enough to know where the wind was blowing and enough had common business interests with Philly that there was grudging recognition one by one.

I think there was full recognition sometime in mid-2000's of Joey and his group, Scarfo Jr. demotion, skins/Gambino dinner with Ligambi and crew over Jr and his guys belonging to Philly and Joey clearly being recognized across the board by 2015 given the company he kept in Florida and during the new york indictment....all signs that point to one conclusion.

[Pogo The Clown]

Thanks. I now vaguely remember Natale being in contact with Caprio. According to Caprio if the plot succeeded the headquarters of the family would have been moved to North Jersey. That would have been interesting.


Pogo

[Frank]

Not that Scarfo would have been a direct factor, but the idea is that multiple New York families may not have recognized the sitting Philadelphia administration as official or otherwise legitimate.

That's what angle I was coming from, the technical rules of the LCN. We know Scarfo didn't have control of the Family. His son couldn't even be in the Philadelphia Family. I agree with you about the possibility that Scarfo was still recognized as boss by the NY and the other Families.

[Chucky]

The Luccheses may have recognized Merlino/Ligambi prior to 2010. When the Pernas were recorded talking about Nicky Jr's demotion they mention how Scarfo Sr "should still be the boss", so it could be that the Luccheses recognition of Philly coincided with Scarfo Jr being bumped down. Or this comment could also point to the Luccheses still being the only NY family to recognize Scarfo Sr as boss at this time (around 2007).

[B.]

I think there was full recognition sometime in mid-2000's of Joey and his group, Scarfo Jr. demotion, skins/Gambino dinner with Ligambi and crew over Jr and his guys belonging to Philly and Joey clearly being recognized across the board by 2015 given the company he kept in Florida and during the new york indictment....all signs that point to one conclusion.

That timeline makes the most sense.

I've been curious about John Gambino's comment to Stefanelli where the two were praising Ligambi, but Gambino said he couldn't help him. From limited context, it almost sounds like he wanted to help him but couldn't, possibly out of protocol, but it's also possible/likely Gambino didn't want to get in the middle of Philly's problem with the Luccheses for practical reasons.

Still hoping we hear someday about what Philly's beef with the DeCavs was, as they brought that to the Gambinos at the same meeting.

[Stroccos]

When was Scarfo Jr. made into the luccehse ?

[Niagarafalls]

What was Gongs killed for? Wasn’t he also trying to make a play? I want to say he was involved with Alite?

[Pogo The Clown]

When was Scarfo Jr. made into the luccehse ?

Sometime between Summer 1998-Spring 2000.

What was Gongs killed for? Wasn’t he also trying to make a play? I want to say he was involved with Alite?

Several reasons were given. Taking credit for the Long John Martorano hit, getting into a highly publicized altercation where he stabbed Chico DeBarge, shooting at Phil Ligambi's house in 1992 and probably his biggest infraction was him allegedly boning Joey Merlinos wife (the two were seen together in a restaurant). I'm sure sure there were multiple reasons. To quote Nicky Santoro, "I mean, this guy's just beggin' to be made an example of."


Pogo