Daniel Renaud's 2018 book on Vito Rizzuto

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B.
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Re: Daniel Renaud's 2018 book on Vito Rizzuto

Post by B. »

antimafia wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:26 pm ^^^^
Sciascia did attend Vito Rizzuto’s wedding reception in Toronto; in fact, the very first photo in Renaud’s new book shows, from left to right, Sciascia; the bride; Rizzuto; and a woman whose face has been blurred out. The unidentified woman could be Sciascia’s second wife, Mary Elizabeth MacFadyen, whom he married on April 28, 1963 in White Plains, NY; however, the woman pictured has black/dark hair, as well as somewhat chubby arms—she doesn’t strike me as Sciascia’s Scottish-born wife.
So it's very possible Sciascia was introduced to the DeFilippos and even Bill Bonanno at this event given that Sciascia was already believed to be a mafioso at this time. I'd be curious if other mafia members from NYC or the US, particularly the Bonannos, attended the wedding aside from the Bill Bonanno caravan. Nicolo Alfano or anyone from his group wouldn't be a surprise.

I'd love to know what Sciascia's relationship was to Carmine Galante in the 1970s. It would seem that the Sciascia/Rizzuto takeover of Montreal in the late 1970s was done with Galante's approval given that he was still alive at the time and seems to have had the entire Bonanno "zip" faction under his thumb at the time. With Galante's heavy history in Montreal and Sciascia living in NYC, there must be much more there.
antimafia wrote: Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:06 am
B. wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:40 pmAlfonso Gagliano was from Siculiana and his membership in the Bonanno family is a possible indication that Agostino Cuntrera, also of Siculiana, was likely made with the Bonannos as well since it hasn't been confirmed.
felice (our fellow TBHF poster) once suggested on the Real Deal forum that Cuntrera is the only Caruana-Cuntrera male relative who, by virtue of membership in the Montreal Mafia, was made in another mafia family as opposed to being made in the Caruana-Cuntrera Sicilian Cosa Nostra family. This might be true; it might not. As Antonio Nicaso often says in his talks and presentations, the Caruana-Cuntrera crime family is unique among Sicilian Cosa Nostra families because it is a blood family. Giovanni Falcone himself famously said, in Italian, that every male Caruana or Cuntrera in the clan was a made member of the family. (Are there other Sicilian CN blood families?)

Recall that early on in Nicaso and Lamothe’s 2002 Bloodlines book, Agostino Cuntrera is described in a sidebar on p. 2 as follows:

Agostino “Dino” Cuntrera (b. 1944) is a resident of Montreal, Quebec. He is variously described as the number-one member of the Caruana-Cuntrera in Montreal, or as the number-two man in the city, operating under Mafia godfather Nicolò Rizzuto.

In Renaud’s 2016 book, Cellule 8002 vs mafia, Cuntrera is identifed by Renaud as a made man in the Caruana-Cuntrera clan (p. 235) (I added the copy "[Paolo]" below for clarification):

À la suite de la disparition de [Paolo] Renda, Agostino Cuntrera, homme d’honneur et membre de la famille sicilienne des Caruana-Cuntrera –- une alliée indéfectible des Rizzuto –-, devient le nouveau chef du clan, mais pas nécessairement parce qu’il en a envie.

Incidentally, in the same book, Renaud lists Cuntrera as a (brief) leader of the Montreal Mafia, holding the "title" (my quotation marks) for June 2010. (insert following p. 36)
Great information here. However, I do wonder if the language of what consitutes a "mafia family" is getting a bit distorted once again, in the same way that I've pointed out before.

My understanding is that the Caruana-Cuntreras are made members of the Siculiana family and/or an official Sicilian mafia family in Venezuela. (A Sicilian expert could correct me if I'm wrong, but I have read before that the Sicilian mafia allowed the creation of a family in Venezuela / South America similar to how they used to have an officially recognized in family in Tunisia, but that's not that important to the point). The main point is that the Caruana-Cuntreras wouldn't be members of a mafia family exclusively created for their bloodline, but they would be members of the Siculiana or Veneuzela groups that happened to be made up primarily or even solely of their bloodline. For all practical purposes, they dominate these groups and their blood family might even comprise the entire membership, but that's technically a bit different than a mafia family being created exclusively for a certain bloodline.

Looking at someone like Joe Bonanno, virtually every male member of his immediate family was a mafia member in Sicily and the USA, with most of them clustered in the same mafia families. Father, son, uncles, grandfather(s), brother-in-law, cousins, second cousin(s), and that's not even getting into others related by marriage. In that sense, they were also a mafia group made up of a certain bloodline and their dominance spanned generations, cities, and continents but the mafia family wasn't formally based on this bloodline. The difference with the Caruana-Cuntreras is that they seem to make up a much larger percentage of their mafia family (or families) because the groups are smaller, but technically I believe it's the same.

In Sicily we also have heard of the sometimes-enforced rule of limiting the number of blood relatives in each mafia family to limit their dominance / power. What resulted is brothers being inducted into different families, which arguably could have made them even more powerful since they would then have representation in multiple groups. Aside from what Felice said about Agostino Cuntrera possibly being made into a different family (Bonanno Montreal), I don't know that this would relate to the Caruana-Cuntrera group, but it is interesting to consider since they are a group who had influence in multiple countries and possibly multiple mafia families. I've mentioned this before, but if Agostino Cuntrera were a Montreal Bonanno it could have actually given the Caruana-Cunterera group more influence in Canada than if he were a Siculiana member.

Something I've also wondered though is if Sicilian mafia members have been inducted in Montreal and Canada. We know that Sicilian mafia members have lived and operated in Canada outside of the formal Bonanno crew and it sure looks like Sicilian mafia members have transferred into the Bonannos at least historically, but you have to wonder if inductions in Montreal were even allowed in the city unless the member was being made into the Bonannos. If Agostino Cunterera came to Canada as a Sicilian mafia member, he may have transferred to the Bonannos because that was the path to power/influence in Montreal. Or if he immigrated as a non-member he may have joined the Bonannos because that was the only option, the path to power, or both.

Alfonso Gagliano is a good example in all of this because he likely came from the Caruana-Cuntrera orbit as a Siculiana native, though he doesn't appear to be a relative of the Caruana-Cuntreras that we know of. Since he is a Bonanno member and Agostino Cuntera may have been, it's an indication that it was either proper protocol for non-members from Siculiana to join the Bonanno family as Montreal residents and/or it was more advantageous (at least at the time of their induction).
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Re: Daniel Renaud's 2018 book on Vito Rizzuto

Post by CabriniGreen »

@B

You are kinda arguing with yourself, for like no reason......

This is why I get confused, it's like you dont agree with Falcone, of all people, that they ran their own family?
Why?

You dont think the Venezuelan family WAS a family?
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Re: Daniel Renaud's 2018 book on Vito Rizzuto

Post by CabriniGreen »

I dont think anyone said a mafia family was CREATED for THEM. I'm pretty sure the purpose of Venezuela was to be close to the coke, just like the Brazilian branch was for heroin. They just happened to be in the business for years.

Like the Grecos dominated two families in Sicily, but I think it happened like that, these things sometimes happen, mafia dynasties, look at the Violis and Rizzutos.

Like no one CREATED the Ciucalli and Croceverde families FOR the Grecos.

I really feel like you try a little TOO hard to connect EVERYONE in Canada with Bonnano membership.
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Re: Daniel Renaud's 2018 book on Vito Rizzuto

Post by CabriniGreen »

Like I KNOW, you have seen this??


https://youtu.be/GKusdmBHvTk
B.
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Re: Daniel Renaud's 2018 book on Vito Rizzuto

Post by B. »

CabriniGreen wrote: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:05 am @B

You are kinda arguing with yourself, for like no reason......

This is why I get confused, it's like you dont agree with Falcone, of all people, that they ran their own family?
Why?

You dont think the Venezuelan family WAS a family?
I'm not arguing with anyone. I'm interested in the technical details of these organizations and enjoy exploring the different possibilities related to those because that's what interests me. If I seem like I'm arguing with anyone in this thread or a deceased mafia prosecutor then that's on them.

There is a tendency for journalists and authors to define "mafia family" in a generalized way, though, especially internationally, and I like to look at that with a critical eye. Saying that I'm trying too hard to connect everything to Bonanno membership in Montreal is like saying people are trying too hard to connect the Toronto/Hamilton figures to Buffalo membership. Everything in those areas certainly doesn't fall under one group's umbrella, but there is precedent for leading figures in those areas to be members of those groups. I pointed out one confirmed Bonanno member and another likely/possible Bonanno member in Montreal who came directly from the Caruana-Cuntrera orbit and it's interesting to consider why they ended up inducted into one group opposed to another and what implications that has on protocol and rules in the Montreal area and beyond.

Protocol and rules might not matter when it comes to the day-to-day operations of these groups, but it's important to understand what the protocol and rules are not just because of what it means when they're followed but because of what it means when they're not followed. No doubt there were many forces at play during the Montreal war, but if nothing else it's an interesting coincidence that the narrative in the first decade of the 2000s was that Montreal had essentially broken protocol and then a bunch of leading figures there were killed and a violent war erupted after a Bonanno leader moved there.
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Re: Daniel Renaud's 2018 book on Vito Rizzuto

Post by CabriniGreen »

lol, @B

All I was saying, or asking was if you were disputing whether the Cuntreras were a family... If so, I didnt understand why.....If not, then never mind, lol

And before the details of Otremens became known, NO ONE was connecting ANYTHING with Buffalo really.
The consensus was it was dead.

To my eyes it's like a matter of persoective..
To American Feds, it's the Canadian branch of the Bonnanos, to the RCMP, it's the Independent Montreal mafia, and to Italian prosecutors it's the Canadian arm of the Caruana- Cuntreras.

Are the Cops confused or lying? I dont think so....I think all three are correct, which makes it complicated.....
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Re: Daniel Renaud's 2018 book on Vito Rizzuto

Post by Moscone65 »

The definitely aren't the Canadian arm of the caruana-cuntreras. I think they have their own separate thing, they just have close ties and some members that share membership. If anything, most Caruana stuff in Canada seems to be in Toronto rather than Montreal.
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Re: Daniel Renaud's 2018 book on Vito Rizzuto

Post by Moscone65 »

I also think that there were parts of the Montreal mob that went independent, such as the main Rizzuto regime but also there were factions that remained more intertwined with he Bonnano's, and perhaps they fully went back to Bonnano because of the war.
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Re: Daniel Renaud's 2018 book on Vito Rizzuto

Post by Lupara »

Agostino Cuntrera was part of Nick Rizzuto's crew by the 70s and he operated under his orders, which makes me believe he wasn't a made member yet. It certainly wouldn't make much sense if he was by then already made into the Siculiana clan. I see him as the likely shooter in the Paolo Violi hit. Ironically and possibly not coincidentally he was shot in the face by a shotgun too, which was done by Giuseppe De Vito's crew (he may have even pulled the trigger himself if I had to believe a translation). De Vito in turn was rumored to have visited Hamilton leading up to the murders. If he did, he must've met the Violis and may have done them the favor of revenge and acting on their behalf. He certainly had contacts in Toronto.

As for Agostino Cuntrera being a Bonanno, it would make sense given his role in the Montreal Mafia, even though he did not seem to show any loyalty to the Bonannos at the time of Montagna's presence. And then he was killed.
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Re: Daniel Renaud's 2018 book on Vito Rizzuto

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Moscone65 wrote: Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:47 pm The definitely aren't the Canadian arm of the caruana-cuntreras. I think they have their own separate thing, they just have close ties and some members that share membership. If anything, most Caruana stuff in Canada seems to be in Toronto rather than Montreal.

I think at one point, pre Riina, in the beginning they were though.....

Octopus page 134....

" In 1963, after leaving Siculiana, the Cuntreras went first to Brazil for a year or so, and then headed to Montreal whose branch of the mafia had been set up by Joe Bonnano and then led by Carmine Galante."

"The Cuntreras and Caruanas were told they would have to wait for permission to operate in Canada, as protocol demanded, but they didnt."

(I think it's important to note, that by demanding they wait, Violi was effectively telling the WHOLE Cupola to wait..... precisely at a time when they NEEDED drug trafficking...)

" The Montreal Mafia and it's new " Sicilian faction" were soon on a collision course. Sporadic killing went on for some time; the Sicilians did not take over altogether until they gunned down the Montreal boss, Paul Violi, in 1978.Though many outsiders worked with them- local mafiosi, independent hoods Corsicans, Neapolitans in the Camorra- the Cuntreras and Caruanas were unmistakably in command"...
"Sometime in that same year, the Cuntreras moved on to Venezuela, leaving some Caruanas behind to mind the store"....
or page 137....


The heroin market was growing rapidly in the US- they were helping it grow- and that was plainly the focus of their activities.


The activities of the Cuntreras shareholders made this clear. John Gambino, returning to the US, became the prime associate there of the clans dominating Palermos heroin consortium. Giuseppe Bono was sent up to NY to represent the entire Sicilian Mafia ( after leaving a notarized power of attorney with Gaspare Cuntrera to handle his holdings) Nick Rizzuto returned to Montreal to complete the Sicilians takeover there; this just after the Sicilian Cupola opened a regular heroin pipeline to NY through Montreal.

The Cuntreras were also entwined with the Sicilian Mafias other chartered branch, in Brazil.....

page 206.....
" Leggio himself, in business for years with the famed Nuvoletra brothers, had excellent access to the Middle and Far East. What he did not have was access to the market in the West. The money in procuring ingredients was nothing to the money in sales, solidly in the hands of Inzerillo and Bontade.

These two men represented the old boy network embedded in Palermo for generations and firmly entrenched in NY....."
Together, they controlled all the heroin in the Western Hemisphere....

They had the franchise deal with the American Mafia. They controlled the heroin pipeline through Canada, the Canadian Mafias Sicilian faction, Salvatore Catalanos Sicilian faction in Brooklyn, the Cuntreras and Caruanas in Venezuela, and the mafia branch in Brazil. The Cupolas marketing manager in Italy, Francesco Mafara, was theirs. The boss of Palermos crucial Punta Raisi airport, Gaetano Badalamenti, was theirs. The director coordinating Palermos refineries was theirs, as was the clan behind the enormous Alcamo refinery.

Now this was all pre Riina;
It seemed to me like the structure was Inzerillo and Bontade, Badalamenti right there with them. Salamone, Then like the Caruana Cuntreras and the Cherry Hill Gambinos. Then Bono and the Napolis, and maybe Nick Rizzuto, then Catalano. I'm leaving a lot of guys out probably but that's a basic outline I think.

Anyone can chime in here....

Also, more excerpts coming, I'm finding it hard to not post long shorts of text. You lose a lot of the context... Just figuring out what's new or old information..... I might
have to post one more long one....
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Re: Daniel Renaud's 2018 book on Vito Rizzuto

Post by CabriniGreen »

lol " long shorts of text"... should say long sheets of text..
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Re: Daniel Renaud's 2018 book on Vito Rizzuto

Post by CabriniGreen »

That video link I posted.... about their authority in Venezuela Is a good one, from like 1989, 30 years ago..
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Re: Daniel Renaud's 2018 book on Vito Rizzuto

Post by CabriniGreen »

I cant help but be intrigued when we see Rizzuto meeting with Gambinos, the whole transatlantic operations that STILL to this day involve Gambinos and Bonnanos, and either sicilians or calabrians from Italy.
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Re: Daniel Renaud's 2018 book on Vito Rizzuto

Post by CabriniGreen »

(I'm having diarrhea of the brain, lol)

On the blood family thing, look at the Persicos. Now one one sat down and decided to give Carmines family a " FAMILY", it just kinda developed that way over time...
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Re: Daniel Renaud's 2018 book on Vito Rizzuto

Post by Moscone65 »

CabriniGreen wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:51 am
Moscone65 wrote: Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:47 pm The definitely aren't the Canadian arm of the caruana-cuntreras. I think they have their own separate thing, they just have close ties and some members that share membership. If anything, most Caruana stuff in Canada seems to be in Toronto rather than Montreal.

I think at one point, pre Riina, in the beginning they were though.....

Octopus page 134....

" In 1963, after leaving Siculiana, the Cuntreras went first to Brazil for a year or so, and then headed to Montreal whose branch of the mafia had been set up by Joe Bonnano and then led by Carmine Galante."

"The Cuntreras and Caruanas were told they would have to wait for permission to operate in Canada, as protocol demanded, but they didnt."

(I think it's important to note, that by demanding they wait, Violi was effectively telling the WHOLE Cupola to wait..... precisely at a time when they NEEDED drug trafficking...)

" The Montreal Mafia and it's new " Sicilian faction" were soon on a collision course. Sporadic killing went on for some time; the Sicilians did not take over altogether until they gunned down the Montreal boss, Paul Violi, in 1978.Though many outsiders worked with them- local mafiosi, independent hoods Corsicans, Neapolitans in the Camorra- the Cuntreras and Caruanas were unmistakably in command"...
"Sometime in that same year, the Cuntreras moved on to Venezuela, leaving some Caruanas behind to mind the store"....
or page 137....


The heroin market was growing rapidly in the US- they were helping it grow- and that was plainly the focus of their activities.


The activities of the Cuntreras shareholders made this clear. John Gambino, returning to the US, became the prime associate there of the clans dominating Palermos heroin consortium. Giuseppe Bono was sent up to NY to represent the entire Sicilian Mafia ( after leaving a notarized power of attorney with Gaspare Cuntrera to handle his holdings) Nick Rizzuto returned to Montreal to complete the Sicilians takeover there; this just after the Sicilian Cupola opened a regular heroin pipeline to NY through Montreal.

The Cuntreras were also entwined with the Sicilian Mafias other chartered branch, in Brazil.....

page 206.....
" Leggio himself, in business for years with the famed Nuvoletra brothers, had excellent access to the Middle and Far East. What he did not have was access to the market in the West. The money in procuring ingredients was nothing to the money in sales, solidly in the hands of Inzerillo and Bontade.

These two men represented the old boy network embedded in Palermo for generations and firmly entrenched in NY....."
Together, they controlled all the heroin in the Western Hemisphere....

They had the franchise deal with the American Mafia. They controlled the heroin pipeline through Canada, the Canadian Mafias Sicilian faction, Salvatore Catalanos Sicilian faction in Brooklyn, the Cuntreras and Caruanas in Venezuela, and the mafia branch in Brazil. The Cupolas marketing manager in Italy, Francesco Mafara, was theirs. The boss of Palermos crucial Punta Raisi airport, Gaetano Badalamenti, was theirs. The director coordinating Palermos refineries was theirs, as was the clan behind the enormous Alcamo refinery.

Now this was all pre Riina;
It seemed to me like the structure was Inzerillo and Bontade, Badalamenti right there with them. Salamone, Then like the Caruana Cuntreras and the Cherry Hill Gambinos. Then Bono and the Napolis, and maybe Nick Rizzuto, then Catalano. I'm leaving a lot of guys out probably but that's a basic outline I think.

Anyone can chime in here....

Also, more excerpts coming, I'm finding it hard to not post long shorts of text. You lose a lot of the context... Just figuring out what's new or old information..... I might
have to post one more long one....
Your right about the pre Riina points. However, from what I understand, when alot of the Montreal sicilians started going back to Montreal from Venezuela, that is when many caruana-cuntreras moved to Toronto instead. So either they were a crew for Montreal in Toronto, or their own family. Caruana Cuntreras have some people still interested heir hometown of Siculiana, as well as in Rome, Toronto and Venezuela of course. So like I was saying, it's possible that alot of the Canadian ones could have dual membership between the Rizzuto family and caruana-cuntrera.
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