Cleveland LCN Hard Times

[FriendofFamily]

OK Gentlemen:

I am at a computer so I can type a little better.

Now there seems to be several issues at hand here. First Thanks for all the responses and I am Glad we agree that this article was a comprehensive for such a short piece and kept it interesting and touch on the backgrounds and how Cleveland landed where it did.

Now I will segue (pronounced segway) into the several side issues that cropped up in this thread.

The Topic of First Hand Knowledge such as FOH or Myself possess as it relates to topics vs. just the FBI or some other source. I know that I have given information on this Board of First Hand Information and later JCB1977 found several things in the FBI Files, Newspaper Articles or Trial Transcripts that happen to confirm what I was saying to be correct. FOH point is that he has some First Hand knowledge that may or may not be in a FBI file but it needs to be considered and not discarded. I can open a Graveyard Cleveland, Akron, Canton, Youngstown, Pittsburgh slug fest, which all six of us take a beating, Destroy our Trust and Fellowship and nothing will be gained from it. Then we will be talking about New York or Chicago all the time and this most interesting Area of the Country gets left to the Vultures.

I understand about we don't need a lot of verbiage about Mugshots or Charts, BUT we do need to discuss some points about the hierarchy etc.

Another thing and not to take this thread and trash it - is we can resurrect the 1980's Pittsburgh Chart for further discussion and If and When JCB1977, Stroccos, Chris Christie want to take a crack at it again so be it. From the comments I think we need to leave the 1980's Pittsburgh alone for now.

[Angelo Santino]

OK Gentlemen:

I am at a computer so I can type a little better.

Now there seems to be several issues at hand here. First Thanks for all the responses and I am Glad we agree that this article was a comprehensive for such a short piece and kept it interesting and touch on the backgrounds and how Cleveland landed where it did.

Now I will segue (pronounced segway) into the several side issues that cropped up in this thread.

The Topic of First Hand Knowledge such as FOH or Myself possess as it relates to topics vs. just the FBI or some other source. I know that I have given information on this Board of First Hand Information and later JCB1977 found several things in the FBI Files, Newspaper Articles or Trial Transcripts that happen to confirm what I was saying to be correct. FOH point is that he has some First Hand knowledge that may or may not be in a FBI file but it needs to be considered and not discarded. I can open a Graveyard Cleveland, Akron, Canton, Youngstown, Pittsburgh slug fest, which all six of us take a beating, Destroy our Trust and Fellowship and nothing will be gained from it. Then we will be talking about New York or Chicago all the time and this most interesting Area of the Country gets left to the Vultures.

I understand about we don't need a lot of verbiage about Mugshots or Charts, BUT we do need to discuss some points about the hierarchy etc.

Another thing and not to take this thread and trash it - is we can resurrect the 1980's Pittsburgh Chart for further discussion and If and When JCB1977, Stroccos, Chris Christie want to take a crack at it again so be it. From the comments I think we need to leave the 1980's Pittsburgh alone for now.

Time comes for a chart, you guys work it out with JCB and present me the info/photos and I'll make it.

Returning to Cleveland: Stroccos and I have floated an early Ohio map/chart but it requires some more research and it might infringe on my own shit which I abstain from even discussing. But directly, Cleveland LCN isn't on my radar.

[Stroccos]

OK Gentlemen:

I am at a computer so I can type a little better.

Now there seems to be several issues at hand here. First Thanks for all the responses and I am Glad we agree that this article was a comprehensive for such a short piece and kept it interesting and touch on the backgrounds and how Cleveland landed where it did.

Now I will segue (pronounced segway) into the several side issues that cropped up in this thread.

The Topic of First Hand Knowledge such as FOH or Myself possess as it relates to topics vs. just the FBI or some other source. I know that I have given information on this Board of First Hand Information and later JCB1977 found several things in the FBI Files, Newspaper Articles or Trial Transcripts that happen to confirm what I was saying to be correct. FOH point is that he has some First Hand knowledge that may or may not be in a FBI file but it needs to be considered and not discarded. I can open a Graveyard Cleveland, Akron, Canton, Youngstown, Pittsburgh slug fest, which all six of us take a beating, Destroy our Trust and Fellowship and nothing will be gained from it. Then we will be talking about New York or Chicago all the time and this most interesting Area of the Country gets left to the Vultures.

I understand about we don't need a lot of verbiage about Mugshots or Charts, BUT we do need to discuss some points about the hierarchy etc.

Another thing and not to take this thread and trash it - is we can resurrect the 1980's Pittsburgh Chart for further discussion and If and When JCB1977, Stroccos, Chris Christie want to take a crack at it again so be it. From the comments I think we need to leave the 1980's Pittsburgh alone for now.

Time comes for a chart, you guys work it out with JCB and present me the info/photos and I'll make it.

Returning to Cleveland: Stroccos and I have floated an early Ohio map/chart but it requires some more research and it might infringe on my own shit which I abstain from even discussing. But directly, Cleveland LCN isn't on my radar.

Early Ohio map would be interesting , like u said not sure we have enough intel but I be willing to give it a shot

[Angelo Santino]

I have about 10-15 names for the 1900-1930 period for Cleveland proper. The other city would be Akron and you know more about that than I do. Youngstown is still a mystery to me. Pittsburgh had people there since the 1900's but Cleveland started later as a group and I don't feel comfortable making any claims at this point.

The chart'll be small but it can still be interesting. We'll roll it around, I have to do some projects for a fellow forum poster non-mafia related just as soon as I get the time. (I made all those Phila charts when I was sick for 2 weeks, bronchitis, conjunctivitis and ear infection so I didn't leave the house much which allowed me time.)

But lastly, I reckon it's best we focus on Detroit first. Spoke with the esteemed Mr. Burnstein and he's willing to help, which is very nice of him, considering how much shit he catches here (unjustly).

[Stroccos]

I have about 10-15 names for the 1900-1930 period for Cleveland proper. The other city would be Akron and you know more about that than I do. Youngstown is still a mystery to me. Pittsburgh had people there since the 1900's but Cleveland started later as a group and I don't feel comfortable making any claims at this point.

The chart'll be small but it can still be interesting. We'll roll it around, I have to do some projects for a fellow forum poster non-mafia related just as soon as I get the time. (I made all those Phila charts when I was sick for 2 weeks, bronchitis, conjunctivitis and ear infection so I didn't leave the house much which allowed me time.)

But lastly, I reckon it's best we focus on Detroit first. Spoke with the esteemed Mr. Burnstein and he's willing to help, which is very nice of him, considering how much shit he catches here (unjustly).

I have a some of names but don’t know how the dots connect
When ever you have time ,

Glad to see Scott on board ,

[Angelo Santino]

I have about 10-15 names for the 1900-1930 period for Cleveland proper. The other city would be Akron and you know more about that than I do. Youngstown is still a mystery to me. Pittsburgh had people there since the 1900's but Cleveland started later as a group and I don't feel comfortable making any claims at this point.

The chart'll be small but it can still be interesting. We'll roll it around, I have to do some projects for a fellow forum poster non-mafia related just as soon as I get the time. (I made all those Phila charts when I was sick for 2 weeks, bronchitis, conjunctivitis and ear infection so I didn't leave the house much which allowed me time.)

But lastly, I reckon it's best we focus on Detroit first. Spoke with the esteemed Mr. Burnstein and he's willing to help, which is very nice of him, considering how much shit he catches here (unjustly).

I have a some of names but don’t know how the dots connect
When ever you have time ,

Glad to see Scott on board ,

In this case, the information makes the chart, we work with what we have. It won't be by anything like what we've collaborated on with CL 65 and 80. Nick Gentile laid out a few hierarchy members for 1927, I have 3 confimed members from 1912, there's a fuckton of dinasours from the 70's who were active back then (probably at the unmade level). Aside from Gentile, a hierarchy layout will not work unless we opt for a game of fantasy family which neither of us are inclined to do. Full disclosure here, me dropping shit I do not usually do, but Joe Lonardo is "generally" listed as boss since the 1920's, guy was the Big Boss since the 1910's, I have very solid evidence to document this. This isn't street talk or me acting in the know, I have primary information to validate it from multiple contemporary sources. Anyways, I'm not stroking my own dick, but I bring it up because I don't mind sharing my own CL findings from the earlier period because it doesn't intersect with my own shit. Especially if it leads to someone else making further connections and the knowledge base is expanded, as I said previously, the Cleveland LCN specifically isn't on my radar.

We create something with historical accuracy and hopefully it inspires people to dig deeper, for them to take the bar further and the chart becomes obsolete in a few years because more has come out.

[JCB1977]

I have about 10-15 names for the 1900-1930 period for Cleveland proper. The other city would be Akron and you know more about that than I do. Youngstown is still a mystery to me. Pittsburgh had people there since the 1900's but Cleveland started later as a group and I don't feel comfortable making any claims at this point.

The chart'll be small but it can still be interesting. We'll roll it around, I have to do some projects for a fellow forum poster non-mafia related just as soon as I get the time. (I made all those Phila charts when I was sick for 2 weeks, bronchitis, conjunctivitis and ear infection so I didn't leave the house much which allowed me time.)

But lastly, I reckon it's best we focus on Detroit first. Spoke with the esteemed Mr. Burnstein and he's willing to help, which is very nice of him, considering how much shit he catches here (unjustly).

I have a some of names but don’t know how the dots connect
When ever you have time ,

Glad to see Scott on board ,

In this case, the information makes the chart, we work with what we have. It won't be by anything like what we've collaborated on with CL 65 and 80. Nick Gentile laid out a few hierarchy members for 1927, I have 3 confimed members from 1912, there's a fuckton of dinasours from the 70's who were active back then (probably at the unmade level). Aside from Gentile, a hierarchy layout will not work unless we opt for a game of fantasy family which neither of us are inclined to do. Full disclosure here, me dropping shit I do not usually do, but Joe Lonardo is "generally" listed as boss since the 1920's, guy was the Big Boss since the 1910's, I have very solid evidence to document this. This isn't street talk or me acting in the know, I have primary information to validate it from multiple contemporary sources. Anyways, I'm not stroking my own dick, but I bring it up because I don't mind sharing my own CL findings from the earlier period because it doesn't intersect with my own shit. Especially if it leads to someone else making further connections and the knowledge base is expanded, as I said previously, the Cleveland LCN specifically isn't on my radar.

We create something with historical accuracy and hopefully it inspires people to dig deeper, for them to take the bar further and the chart becomes obsolete in a few years because more has come out.

How can I help with this? I also have early docs on Cleveland. Also, lots of activity in Ravenna, OH in Portage County. Some of the guys are connected to Akron.

[Stroccos]

I have about 10-15 names for the 1900-1930 period for Cleveland proper. The other city would be Akron and you know more about that than I do. Youngstown is still a mystery to me. Pittsburgh had people there since the 1900's but Cleveland started later as a group and I don't feel comfortable making any claims at this point.

The chart'll be small but it can still be interesting. We'll roll it around, I have to do some projects for a fellow forum poster non-mafia related just as soon as I get the time. (I made all those Phila charts when I was sick for 2 weeks, bronchitis, conjunctivitis and ear infection so I didn't leave the house much which allowed me time.)

But lastly, I reckon it's best we focus on Detroit first. Spoke with the esteemed Mr. Burnstein and he's willing to help, which is very nice of him, considering how much shit he catches here (unjustly).

I have a some of names but don’t know how the dots connect
When ever you have time ,

Glad to see Scott on board ,

In this case, the information makes the chart, we work with what we have. It won't be by anything like what we've collaborated on with CL 65 and 80. Nick Gentile laid out a few hierarchy members for 1927, I have 3 confimed members from 1912, there's a fuckton of dinasours from the 70's who were active back then (probably at the unmade level). Aside from Gentile, a hierarchy layout will not work unless we opt for a game of fantasy family which neither of us are inclined to do. Full disclosure here, me dropping shit I do not usually do, but Joe Lonardo is "generally" listed as boss since the 1920's, guy was the Big Boss since the 1910's, I have very solid evidence to document this. This isn't street talk or me acting in the know, I have primary information to validate it from multiple contemporary sources. Anyways, I'm not stroking my own dick, but I bring it up because I don't mind sharing my own CL findings from the earlier period because it doesn't intersect with my own shit. Especially if it leads to someone else making further connections and the knowledge base is expanded, as I said previously, the Cleveland LCN specifically isn't on my radar.

We create something with historical accuracy and hopefully it inspires people to dig deeper, for them to take the bar further and the chart becomes obsolete in a few years because more has come out.

was Joe lonardo considered black hand ?
Yeah you told me about lonardo before pretty interesting ,that we see allot of the same sir names involved much later

Allan mays book covers some of this era sly fanner

[FriendofFamily]

Tying Detroit with Cleveland will be cool

[JeremyTheJew]

Tying Detroit with Cleveland will be cool

Detroit had some soldiers in Toledo, do.we know.of any from CL ?

[Eline2015]

Jimmy La Fatch in his youth was in one gang with Joe Triglia, future capo of Detroit. Triglia was a caabrese descent born and raised in Virginia, but started crime, married and first sentenced in CL

[FriendofFamily]

I didn't know anything about Joe Triglia. Any additional information would be appreciated.

[Stroccos]

Just so there is no misunderstanding. I have no issues with any of our diligent and informed researchers. In fact their findings are most interesting.
However these new proposed charts, especially Pittsburgh/Youngstown, have become something that needs to be copywritten. Why can't we just enjoy them and discuss them amongst ourselves? If everything has to be verified with FBI docs, what happens when a few of us disagree base on our real life experience with some of these guys? Does that mean that the Feds didn't know everything or that were just making shit up?

How 'bout we just post these charts and let us discuss them before anyone considers copywriting them. "Can't we all be friends"

You could always make your own chart ? Or choose not to particapte in the thread
And nobody said the charts were perfect , and who are you to direct what others do with there time , it’s allot of time and energy especially on Chris Christie’s end , once he closes its done . He gives everyone amble chances to change things before he finishes them,
Give us a example for something you said was not considered by your personal expericances?

Wow, I must admit that I'm disappointed that you didn't read or understand the first three sentences of my above post that you quoted.

I have no interest nor do I have enough knowledge to make my own charts. I'll take your advice and not participate in the thread. However it seems as though some of those making these charts are trying to make them perfect. I would just like to see them and I'm in no way making any efforts to direct them on what to do with their time. It's still America and it's still their time to do with as they see fit. In fact it's very generous of them to share their efforts with us.

My introduction to these types of forums was a thread posted on GBB about Pittsburgh. That's where I met JCB and we have since got to know each other pretty well. There were FBI Docs and Pittsburgh Family charts posted that stated the Zebo was not a made man. I knew better and talked privately with JCB regarding when and why Michael insisted on Henry being made. It didn't take very long before he understood and agreed. The point being that some of these FBI Docs don't always know everything about these Families. That's why I'm in favor of getting these charts out there without making them perfect, but that's just me. Hell, I'm bet they have enough information to publish Pittsburgh Family Charts that would fill a few pages. I see no need for them to be perfect, nor do I expect them to be perfect. I would just like to see them when they're ready to be seen.

Yes JCB I read the post
the feds knew damn well Zebo was made , Hes only listed in the Pa crime commision reports as being a made guy ,
The best info comes from the goverment they have spent untold millions getting the intel , with out we would be lost on most families structures especially pre 198 or so

The promblem is people overstate or exxagerate there involement time and time again , most people even close friends and realitves had no clue about the inner workings of the mob , made not made etc

Yes the charts are not perfect , for example Paul Demaio , I was told by one of the Granata's( they were his partners ), he believed Paul was made but had no details about when etc , We also have marry ferial documents stating he was made , but Its quite possible he wasn't made , So we went him being made , we have laid out the baseline , so maybe we get more intel later or someone else comes along and says look at these morons they have DeMaio as a made guy,

[FriendofHenry]

Just so there is no misunderstanding. I have no issues with any of our diligent and informed researchers. In fact their findings are most interesting.
However these new proposed charts, especially Pittsburgh/Youngstown, have become something that needs to be copywritten. Why can't we just enjoy them and discuss them amongst ourselves? If everything has to be verified with FBI docs, what happens when a few of us disagree base on our real life experience with some of these guys? Does that mean that the Feds didn't know everything or that were just making shit up?

How 'bout we just post these charts and let us discuss them before anyone considers copywriting them. "Can't we all be friends"

You could always make your own chart ? Or choose not to particapte in the thread
And nobody said the charts were perfect , and who are you to direct what others do with there time , it’s allot of time and energy especially on Chris Christie’s end , once he closes its done . He gives everyone amble chances to change things before he finishes them,
Give us a example for something you said was not considered by your personal expericances?

Wow, I must admit that I'm disappointed that you didn't read or understand the first three sentences of my above post that you quoted.

I have no interest nor do I have enough knowledge to make my own charts. I'll take your advice and not participate in the thread. However it seems as though some of those making these charts are trying to make them perfect. I would just like to see them and I'm in no way making any efforts to direct them on what to do with their time. It's still America and it's still their time to do with as they see fit. In fact it's very generous of them to share their efforts with us.

My introduction to these types of forums was a thread posted on GBB about Pittsburgh. That's where I met JCB and we have since got to know each other pretty well. There were FBI Docs and Pittsburgh Family charts posted that stated the Zebo was not a made man. I knew better and talked privately with JCB regarding when and why Michael insisted on Henry being made. It didn't take very long before he understood and agreed. The point being that some of these FBI Docs don't always know everything about these Families. That's why I'm in favor of getting these charts out there without making them perfect, but that's just me. Hell, I'm bet they have enough information to publish Pittsburgh Family Charts that would fill a few pages. I see no need for them to be perfect, nor do I expect them to be perfect. I would just like to see them when they're ready to be seen.

Yes JCB I read the post
the feds knew damn well Zebo was made , Hes only listed in the Pa crime commision reports as being a made guy ,
The best info comes from the goverment they have spent untold millions getting the intel , with out we would be lost on most families structures especially pre 198 or so

The promblem is people overstate or exxagerate there involement time and time again , most people even close friends and realitves had no clue about the inner workings of the mob , made not made etc

Yes the charts are not perfect , for example Paul Demaio , I was told by one of the Granata's( they were his partners ), he believed Paul was made but had no details about when etc , We also have marry ferial documents stating he was made , but Its quite possible he wasn't made , So we went him being made , we have laid out the baseline , so maybe we get more intel later or someone else comes along and says look at these morons they have DeMaio as a made guy,

So, at the end of the day, you and I don't have a beef, and I'd be happy with that. I'd just really enjoy seeing these charts and increasing my knowledge of Pittsburgh prior to the 1960s.