Double Affiliation

[B.]

There is no double affiliation if someone transfers from one Cosa Nostra family to another Cosa Nostra family. Nicolo Gentile talks about moving around the country (and outside of the country) to different families, transferring into each one, but at no point is he, for example a member of both Pittsburgh and Kansas City, or Siculiana and the Gambinos. He has one affiliation -- Cosa Nostra / Mafia -- and he joined a number of different families under that one umbrella.

Guys like Coppola and Troia would be the same as Gentile in this way.

"Double affiliation" would apply to someone being a member of two different parent organizations -- i.e. Cosa Nostra / Mafia and 'ndrangheta or Camorra. It is questionable whether double affiliation would count for US Mafia vs. Sicilian Mafia. Before 1930, it was definitely one single affiliation like I explained with Gentile, but there are many questions over post-1930. From info Felice has posted on modern Sicilian Mafia / Gambino connections, it seems the traditional transfer rule still applies but is extremely rare and given how disconnected the US and Sicily are overall, it seems they are basically different affiliations at least on a practical level, but they may have never officially become separate affiliations if that makes sense.

Rosario Gambino, as said, is a member of the Sicilian Mafia and his brothers are members of the Gambino family. Scarfo had a problm with Rosario Gambino and John Gotti couldn't officially intercede because Rosario was with the Sicilian mafia, though he was associated with Gotti's family so there was some degree of indirect influence. It's possible that John/Joe Gambino and other Sicilian-American mafiosi recognize the membership of their brother Rosario and the many other Sicilian mafia members they are/were close to, which would again point to the Sicilian/US mafia still essentially being one form of affiliation with different branches.

Felice said a while back that Rosario Naimo was a Sicilian mafia member who associated with the Luccheses, so a similar situation to Rosario Gambino and the Gambino family. What's strange is why Naimo would have been with the Luccheses. They were Sicilian-dominated family for decades with many members (or their relatives) coming from one town, which is often a reason why certain families stay connected to the Sicilian mafia (Gambinos>Palermo and Bonannos>Castellammare/Trapani), but they don't seem to have maintained strong relationships overseas after a certain point, so not sure why such an influential zip like Naimo would be with a family that had few zips, though it's possible/likely there is more we don't know.

[CabriniGreen]

B.

That's precisely WHY you have to look closer at a Rosario Naimo.....

He wasn't associated with the Luchesses, HE WAS A MADE LUCHESSE MEMBER. But it's interesting you used the language " associated" , I suspect that was his actual relationship with them.. an association- affiliate type relationship.

See Rosario WASNT a made Gambino member, but Scarfo had to basically TREAT HIM LIKE ONE!! That is very important....

See, I believe members of the Sicilian mafia were made into American families precisely to avoid these type of conflicts, as a business necessity. As a means of doing transatlantic business unencumbered.

First, Naimo was Riinas man in the States. He likely was knee deep in narcotics operations with the Gambino and Bonnanos. The Luchesse connection, even though it's the most " official", might have been the weakest of all the three connections.


( I think he was made into the Lucheese as some kind of mafia political concession, they wanted him as the point man, thier OWN made guy over here, but NOT under the Gambino- Bonnano hierarchy... I dont think Riina trusted Gambinos. I would bet that John Gambinos meeting with Riina, where they made the Inzerillo deal, is also where they worked out the Naimo situation..)



For sure, even though hes a made Luchesse, he RIINAS man!! I suspect he was untouchable, as long as he didnt do anything crazy, and was respectful.



I mean, am I to believe, since he was under the Luke's, and he was overseeing the Sicilian operations, that by extension the LUKES were actually in charge? OVER the Binos, Nanos, AND the Sicilian mafia?


It makes you reexamine the nature of the relationship....

I dont know how much the 30s factor in, all this came about with Glbalization, and greater participation in the Narcotics trade across the Atlantic. That's what created the need to work together, between the mafias.

Same with the tobacco trade. They CREATED 3 families in Naples, initiated Calabrians to take advantage of MARKETS, that they didnt or couldn't directly control. Cant beat em or take it, join em type of thing.


Keep the Cherry hill Gambinos in mind, right? Now apply the same thought process to Paul Semplice, and his relationship to the Canadian Italians....

[CabriniGreen]

Also on Coppola, you know he, as a soldier of the Detroit, AMERICAN lcn family, got into a power struggle with his native cosche, family, whatever in Sicily, Partinico. He DEPOSED the boss, and named the replacement of HIS OWN SUPERIOR? I mean, lol.. clearly hes more than JUST a soldier for the Partnership....

He got into a beef, supposedly with Costello, Costello took it to the commision. COULDNT HIT HIM!!!
Sound familiar? It sounda little like the Rosario Gambino thing, a little like the Rizzuto thing. Remember, Costello backed Anastasia killing a boss. He had power, but this guy Coppola was doing drug business with like 4 or 5 families, Costello wasnt getting permission.

[HairyKnuckles]

CabriniGreen, what's your POINT?

[CabriniGreen]

@ HairyKuckles lol,

That mafiosi that operate rackets that arnt based on territorial control, have historically, exercised CONSIDERABLE autonomy, often with either tacit approval from the established mafia hierarchy, or at least an unofficial sanction on the activities.

They often, even operate with their OWN agenda as the driving force, irreguardless of family ( Mafia) affiliation, and often they have divergent agendas from what the family wants.


Also, that as globalization became more of a thing, there was a NEED of cooperation between the mafias, they needed to do business unimpeded, it needed to be SEAMLESS.


This is part of why I think, Canada seems so confusing. Because the major players have their OWN connections to narcotics suppliers as no distributors, it's just harder to control them. You cant fuckin call Colombia, or Mexico and cut guys out th ed trade like you can shut down a book, or cut a contractor out of a bid.
Its outside of their realm of direct control.

This goes back to Luciano, through Coppola, through guys like Genovese, ( Highly independent, controlled the Naples black MARKETS, not territory..)
Zaza, Rizzutos, lots of examples....

Did you watch the video I linked? Did you get to the part about Carmine Bruzzeze being indicted as members of BOTH cosa nostra and ndrangheta?

Also, are you really going to act like this thread isnt interesting? Or are you just on some personal shit, wh as t, the little thing with Confederate? it's nothing, I just think he sounds out of touch sometimes, told him so in a PM when I first signed up.

We need to post more, discuss more, Beef less....

[CabriniGreen]

supposed to say " and distributors".....

[HairyKnuckles]

@ HairyKuckles lol,

That mafiosi that operate rackets that arnt based on territorial control, have historically, exercised CONSIDERABLE autonomy, often with either tacit approval from the established mafia hierarchy, or at least an unofficial sanction on the activities.

They often, even operate with their OWN agenda as the driving force, irreguardless of family ( Mafia) affiliation, and often they have divergent agendas from what the family wants.


Also, that as globalization became more of a thing, there was a NEED of cooperation between the mafias, they needed to do business unimpeded, it needed to be SEAMLESS.


This is part of why I think, Canada seems so confusing. Because the major players have their OWN connections to narcotics suppliers as no distributors, it's just harder to control them. You cant fuckin call Colombia, or Mexico and cut guys out th ed trade like you can shut down a book, or cut a contractor out of a bid.
Its outside of their realm of direct control.

This goes back to Luciano, through Coppola, through guys like Genovese, ( Highly independent, controlled the Naples black MARKETS, not territory..)
Zaza, Rizzutos, lots of examples....

Did you watch the video I linked? Did you get to the part about Carmine Bruzzeze being indicted as members of BOTH cosa nostra and ndrangheta?

Also, are you really going to act like this thread isnt interesting? Or are you just on some personal shit, wh as t, the little thing with Confederate? it's nothing, I just think he sounds out of touch sometimes, told him so in a PM when I first signed up.

We need to post more, discuss more, Beef less....

You´re RAMBLING in circles. How can anybody have a DISCUSSION with you? Maybe it´s just me but can you make ONE post WITHOUT mentioning a drug pipe line? And you seem to get more and more CONFUSED by EVERY post you make.

And also, I´m NOT a mod anymore so I don´t CARE about the little thing with Confederate.

[Wiseguy]

@ HairyKuckles lol,

That mafiosi that operate rackets that arnt based on territorial control, have historically, exercised CONSIDERABLE autonomy, often with either tacit approval from the established mafia hierarchy, or at least an unofficial sanction on the activities.

They often, even operate with their OWN agenda as the driving force, irreguardless of family ( Mafia) affiliation, and often they have divergent agendas from what the family wants.


Also, that as globalization became more of a thing, there was a NEED of cooperation between the mafias, they needed to do business unimpeded, it needed to be SEAMLESS.


This is part of why I think, Canada seems so confusing. Because the major players have their OWN connections to narcotics suppliers as no distributors, it's just harder to control them. You cant fuckin call Colombia, or Mexico and cut guys out th ed trade like you can shut down a book, or cut a contractor out of a bid.
Its outside of their realm of direct control.

This goes back to Luciano, through Coppola, through guys like Genovese, ( Highly independent, controlled the Naples black MARKETS, not territory..)
Zaza, Rizzutos, lots of examples....

Did you watch the video I linked? Did you get to the part about Carmine Bruzzeze being indicted as members of BOTH cosa nostra and ndrangheta?

Also, are you really going to act like this thread isnt interesting? Or are you just on some personal shit, wh as t, the little thing with Confederate? it's nothing, I just think he sounds out of touch sometimes, told him so in a PM when I first signed up.

We need to post more, discuss more, Beef less....

You´re RAMBLING in circles. How can anybody have a DISCUSSION with you? Maybe it´s just me but can you make ONE post WITHOUT mentioning a drug pipe line? And you seem to get more and more CONFUSED by EVERY post you make.

And also, I´m NOT a mod anymore so I don´t CARE about the little thing with Confederate.

I have to second what Hairy is saying.

Cabrini, you're a good poster but you struggle to organize what you want to say in a coherent post. You're often all over the place. You'll apparently start with the intention of making one point and end up somewhere else. You remind me of Little Joe Shots (a past poster) though you're not as long winded as he was. You and I are alike in that we find the business/economics side of the Mob/OC most interesting. But, as I've said before, you're often too drug-centric. Just my 2 cents.

[CabriniGreen]

Hairy

You ain't gotta bullshit me here.....we've never had an issue before....

There was the small tiff in the other thread, then you show up in this one....

You hadn't posted previously, you came in with the " WHATS YOUR POINT", LOL

ummm, the title of the thread, Double Affiliation.
Why is double affiliation a topic of discussion?

First, like I explained, I watched a video seminar by Anna Sergi, and she had this topic of double affiliation.


Second, the ongoing, I dont know, confusion- debate, about the Rizzutos. It kept going, " They are Bonnanos", "they are Sicilian mafia", back and forth. Her seminar made me realize I didnt actually disagree that they were Bonnano members. That what I believe is that they are Sicilian mafia, with American lcn recognition to facilitate TransAtlantic business. ( I wont use the N word, )


Some guys I've read about, have never really made sense to me. Francesco Gambino, The Rizzutos, Coppola, Galante to an extent, Zaza,...

They all kinda share the same similarities... Autonomous, enterprising types... I know it all gets a bit long winded, it's just too much info for a small post....

I'd probably have to sit down and really dig into it, like an extended article or something...

Why am I into drug pipelines? Its bigtime crime, the biggest. The flip side of capitalism is interesting to me. The opium wars were interesting, Sir Francis Drake robbing ships was interesting, Kazakhstan caviar cartels, Diamonds, Wall Street shit, like I'll read anything...
The way drugs intersect with the street to the banks is fascinating to me. There's going to be a show, 000 about a shipping container of coke from Mexico to Calabria and EVERYONE whose complicit in its transport. I cant wait for that....
I'm interested in it for the same reasons guys like to talk Gotti, or Merlino, or Barney, the Castellano hit, what women they bang, lol whatever.... I dont have to go in and bash the thread, it's all fun really...
You do great work on here, you a respected guy, I'm not really trying to get into a back and forth with you...


But you gotta admit it's a little strange, why today, why this thread?

[Confederate]

Cabrini, with all due respect, HK absolutely doesn't care about anything you were offended about in another thread. You do get offended easily about people or things that don't really even concern you. Believe it or not, I think you are an intelligent guy and I don't dislike you but HK and Wiseguy are correct about the rambling and confusion in some of your postings.
I would suggest you read a book called "The Pizza Connection". The Book explains the relationships between a couple of the Sicilian Clans and the New York American Mafia. The Book talks about the Cherry Hill Gambinos etc. You are overthinking the relationship between the Sicilians and the New York LCN people. The Book explains about the manufacturing and distribution aspects of the Business operation that went on for years basically undetected and names a lot of people and their roles and how Sicilian members influenced the Bonnano Family. They didn't HAVE to be made into the Bonnano Family to influence how the Heroin business operated. A lot of the New York guys were a little afraid of the Zips. The Zips were the real deal so to speak. I think you would enjoy the Book.

[johnny_scootch]

That's precisely WHY you have to look closer at a Rosario Naimo.....

He wasn't associated with the Luchesses, HE WAS A MADE LUCHESSE MEMBER.

Cabrini wheres this info from? I can't recall hearing it before.

[CabriniGreen]

@Confederate

You happen to know the authors name? I've read a few books on this, but if there's info I haven't seen, I'd be glad to read it......

I do struggle organizing my thoughts, specifically on this topic, it's quite complex if you ask me, but I do think I explain myself, I just dont think you guys get what I'm saying...

John Dicke and Anna Sergi have kinda hinted at what I cant fully explain....

@ Confederate

You have to admit, the statement" they didnt have to be made into the Bonanno family to influence how the drug trade works".... actually let's stay here, it's a good starting point...




That statement there, echoes my ENTIRE POINT.
That a big part of my argument about the Rizzutos. That they were initially primarily, narcotics merchants. They diversified into other things eventually just like prohibition gangs, but the control of drugs, wasnt in the hands of American lcn, ACCESS TO NY MARKETS, WAS in American LCN hands.

But, with the exception of the Bonnanos, the American guys were shut out of the market by the Commision.

Let's look at Paul Semplice as as n example.

1. Made Gambino guy

2. Goes to Canada, Toronto meets with a crime family from Italy...

3. Question, Is this crime family an independent entity?
They apparently originate from Italy, so unless the Gambinos are going over there and making Italians, I assume they are independent...

4. Semplice is introducing these guys to other members, as " Gambino guys".... Like the formal introduction.... So what does that mean?

Is there a Gambino Toronto crew we know NOTHING ABOUT? I've NEVER seen a " Toronto" crew on a Gambino chart.

Sergi said that Calabrian mobsters were essentially using American lcn associates, like they were already some kind of integrated faction in NY.

I mean, did the Gambinos MAKE a bunch of Calabrians? OR, is there some sort of protocol in place that enables Calabrian gangsters to do business, with Gambino cache as if they are made members, even though technically they arnt.

okay, I'll stop there, Everyone, Wiseguy, Confederate Hairy, I would ACTUALLY LIKE to hear you guys opinions... What do you think the deal is here?

[Frank]

@Confederate

You happen to know the authors name? I've read a few books on this, but if there's info I haven't seen, I'd be glad to read it......

I do struggle organizing my thoughts, specifically on this topic, it's quite complex if you ask me, but I do think I explain myself, I just dont think you guys get what I'm saying...

John Dicke and Anna Sergi have kinda hinted at what I cant fully explain....

@ Confederate

You have to admit, the statement" they didnt have to be made into the Bonanno family to influence how the drug trade works".... actually let's stay here, it's a good starting point...




That statement there, echoes my ENTIRE POINT.
That a big part of my argument about the Rizzutos. That they were initially primarily, narcotics merchants. They diversified into other things eventually just like prohibition gangs, but the control of drugs, wasnt in the hands of American lcn, ACCESS TO NY MARKETS, WAS in American LCN hands.

But, with the exception of the Bonnanos, the American guys were shut out of the market by the Commision.

Let's look at Paul Semplice as as n example.

1. Made Gambino guy

2. Goes to Canada, Toronto meets with a crime family from Italy...

3. Question, Is this crime family an independent entity?
They apparently originate from Italy, so unless the Gambinos are going over there and making Italians, I assume they are independent...

4. Semplice is introducing these guys to other members, as " Gambino guys".... Like the formal introduction.... So what does that mean?

Is there a Gambino Toronto crew we know NOTHING ABOUT? I've NEVER seen a " Toronto" crew on a Gambino chart.

Sergi said that Calabrian mobsters were essentially using American lcn associates, like they were already some kind of integrated faction in NY.

I mean, did the Gambinos MAKE a bunch of Calabrians? OR, is there some sort of protocol in place that enables Calabrian gangsters to do business, with Gambino cache as if they are made members, even though technically they arnt.

okay, I'll stop there, Everyone, Wiseguy, Confederate Hairy, I would ACTUALLY LIKE to hear you guys opinions... What do you think the deal is here?

Maybe they are not Gambino members, but on record associates.

[Confederate]

@Confederate

You happen to know the authors name? I've read a few books on this, but if there's info I haven't seen, I'd be glad to read it......

I do struggle organizing my thoughts, specifically on this topic, it's quite complex if you ask me, but I do think I explain myself, I just dont think you guys get what I'm saying...

John Dicke and Anna Sergi have kinda hinted at what I cant fully explain....

@ Confederate

You have to admit, the statement" they didnt have to be made into the Bonanno family to influence how the drug trade works".... actually let's stay here, it's a good starting point...




That statement there, echoes my ENTIRE POINT.
That a big part of my argument about the Rizzutos. That they were initially primarily, narcotics merchants. They diversified into other things eventually just like prohibition gangs, but the control of drugs, wasnt in the hands of American lcn, ACCESS TO NY MARKETS, WAS in American LCN hands.

But, with the exception of the Bonnanos, the American guys were shut out of the market by the Commision.

Let's look at Paul Semplice as as n example.

1. Made Gambino guy

2. Goes to Canada, Toronto meets with a crime family from Italy...

3. Question, Is this crime family an independent entity?
They apparently originate from Italy, so unless the Gambinos are going over there and making Italians, I assume they are independent...

4. Semplice is introducing these guys to other members, as " Gambino guys".... Like the formal introduction.... So what does that mean?

Is there a Gambino Toronto crew we know NOTHING ABOUT? I've NEVER seen a " Toronto" crew on a Gambino chart.

Sergi said that Calabrian mobsters were essentially using American lcn associates, like they were already some kind of integrated faction in NY.

I mean, did the Gambinos MAKE a bunch of Calabrians? OR, is there some sort of protocol in place that enables Calabrian gangsters to do business, with Gambino cache as if they are made members, even though technically they arnt.

okay, I'll stop there, Everyone, Wiseguy, Confederate Hairy, I would ACTUALLY LIKE to hear you guys opinions... What do you think the deal is here?

The Pizza Connection: Shana Alexander 1988.
Last Days of The Sicilians: Ralph Blumenthal 1988.

Cesare Bonventre & Baldassare Amato were members of one of the Sicilian Clans and supposedly actual made members of the Bonanno Family. Amato was supposedly a Captain. However, most of the other guys were only Sicilian Clan members. The Sicilians were involved in the manufacturing AND distribution of the Heroin. Zips were sent to America to be on the receiving end of the Heroin. I remember how the Book said that the other New York LCN guys not involved in the Pizza Connection literally stayed out of their way. lol
Nobody could beat the Sicilians for organization and secrecy. Many of the were related by blood or marriage. Some of the women in Sicily assisted their men and were involved on the fringes.

[Frank]

There is no double affiliation if someone transfers from one Cosa Nostra family to another Cosa Nostra family. Nicolo Gentile talks about moving around the country (and outside of the country) to different families, transferring into each one, but at no point is he, for example a member of both Pittsburgh and Kansas City, or Siculiana and the Gambinos. He has one affiliation -- Cosa Nostra / Mafia -- and he joined a number of different families under that one umbrella.

Guys like Coppola and Troia would be the same as Gentile in this way.

"Double affiliation" would apply to someone being a member of two different parent organizations -- i.e. Cosa Nostra / Mafia and 'ndrangheta or Camorra. It is questionable whether double affiliation would count for US Mafia vs. Sicilian Mafia. Before 1930, it was definitely one single affiliation like I explained with Gentile, but there are many questions over post-1930. From info Felice has posted on modern Sicilian Mafia / Gambino connections, it seems the traditional transfer rule still applies but is extremely rare and given how disconnected the US and Sicily are overall, it seems they are basically different affiliations at least on a practical level, but they may have never officially become separate affiliations if that makes sense.

Rosario Gambino, as said, is a member of the Sicilian Mafia and his brothers are members of the Gambino family. Scarfo had a problm with Rosario Gambino and John Gotti couldn't officially intercede because Rosario was with the Sicilian mafia, though he was associated with Gotti's family so there was some degree of indirect influence. It's possible that John/Joe Gambino and other Sicilian-American mafiosi recognize the membership of their brother Rosario and the many other Sicilian mafia members they are/were close to, which would again point to the Sicilian/US mafia still essentially being one form of affiliation with different branches.

Felice said a while back that Rosario Naimo was a Sicilian mafia member who associated with the Luccheses, so a similar situation to Rosario Gambino and the Gambino family. What's strange is why Naimo would have been with the Luccheses. They were Sicilian-dominated family for decades with many members (or their relatives) coming from one town, which is often a reason why certain families stay connected to the Sicilian mafia (Gambinos>Palermo and Bonannos>Castellammare/Trapani), but they don't seem to have maintained strong relationships overseas after a certain point, so not sure why such an influential zip like Naimo would be with a family that had few zips, though it's possible/likely there is more we don't know.

Just trying to clear up any confusion. Is it known if Naimo was a Sicilian member or a Lucchese member? Did he transfer from Sicilian member to Lucchese member and then back to Sicilian member?