1980 Pittsburgh Chart

[FriendofHenry]

From the government not sure on accuracy
Altoona, Pennsylvania,
Alfred Corbo Joseph Ruggiero John Verilla Victor Schiappa Carl Venturato John Caramadre Vincent Caraciollo Dennis Colello

Youngstown/ Warren, Ohio
Vincent “Jimmy” Prato Joey Naples Lenine Strollo Ernest Biondillo Bernard Altshuller Frank Lentine Paul “Pinto” Holovatick Peter Cascarelli
Peeps and spider switched to work with Naples

I don't know if this makes a difference, but only Jimmy, Joey and Lenny were made guys.

1980. Only Jimmy Two guns and Big Dom were made. JOEY and Lenny were made in 1987. They were well respected associates until 87

In all the years I played poker with Two Gun Jimmy no one ever referred to him as "Jimmy Two Guns". Same guy though

[JCB1977]

From the government not sure on accuracy
Altoona, Pennsylvania,
Alfred Corbo Joseph Ruggiero John Verilla Victor Schiappa Carl Venturato John Caramadre Vincent Caraciollo Dennis Colello

Youngstown/ Warren, Ohio
Vincent “Jimmy” Prato Joey Naples Lenine Strollo Ernest Biondillo Bernard Altshuller Frank Lentine Paul “Pinto” Holovatick Peter Cascarelli
Peeps and spider switched to work with Naples

I don't know if this makes a difference, but only Jimmy, Joey and Lenny were made guys.

1980. Only Jimmy Two guns and Big Dom were made. JOEY and Lenny were made in 1987. They were well respected associates until 87

In all the years I played poker with Two Gun Jimmy no one ever referred to him as "Jimmy Two Guns". Same guy though

I was typing from my phone. When Jo Jo was locked up in 1980, Henry was in charge of WV, correct?

[FriendofHenry]

From the government not sure on accuracy
Altoona, Pennsylvania,
Alfred Corbo Joseph Ruggiero John Verilla Victor Schiappa Carl Venturato John Caramadre Vincent Caraciollo Dennis Colello

Youngstown/ Warren, Ohio
Vincent “Jimmy” Prato Joey Naples Lenine Strollo Ernest Biondillo Bernard Altshuller Frank Lentine Paul “Pinto” Holovatick Peter Cascarelli
Peeps and spider switched to work with Naples

I don't know if this makes a difference, but only Jimmy, Joey and Lenny were made guys.

1980. Only Jimmy Two guns and Big Dom were made. JOEY and Lenny were made in 1987. They were well respected associates until 87

In all the years I played poker with Two Gun Jimmy no one ever referred to him as "Jimmy Two Guns". Same guy though

I was typing from my phone. When Jo Jo was locked up in 1980, Henry was in charge of WV, correct?

That's an interesting question. After Joe went to college, there wasn't much left in West Virginia.
I can't remember if they kept The Red Dog open after Joe went away, but it wasn't open for long if they did.
While or if it was open then Henry was in charge, something we never discussed. Other wise, your guess is as good as mine.

[JCB1977]

From the government not sure on accuracy
Altoona, Pennsylvania,
Alfred Corbo Joseph Ruggiero John Verilla Victor Schiappa Carl Venturato John Caramadre Vincent Caraciollo Dennis Colello

Youngstown/ Warren, Ohio
Vincent “Jimmy” Prato Joey Naples Lenine Strollo Ernest Biondillo Bernard Altshuller Frank Lentine Paul “Pinto” Holovatick Peter Cascarelli
Peeps and spider switched to work with Naples

I don't know if this makes a difference, but only Jimmy, Joey and Lenny were made guys.

1980. Only Jimmy Two guns and Big Dom were made. JOEY and Lenny were made in 1987. They were well respected associates until 87

In all the years I played poker with Two Gun Jimmy no one ever referred to him as "Jimmy Two Guns". Same guy though

I was typing from my phone. When Jo Jo was locked up in 1980, Henry was in charge of WV, correct?

That's an interesting question. After Joe went to college, there wasn't much left in West Virginia.
I can't remember if they kept The Red Dog open after Joe went away, but it wasn't open for long if they did.
While or if it was open then Henry was in charge, something we never discussed. Other wise, your guess is as good as mine.

Not just the clubs, the gambling. I know that Silvio Pinciaro was still operating in Weirton and Paul had his crew in Wheeling. They were answering to somebody...if Henry was making stops to see Paul, Jack DeSarro and Silvio...then they were answering to him...plus he was Jo Jo’s right hand man

[FriendofHenry]

From the government not sure on accuracy
Altoona, Pennsylvania,
Alfred Corbo Joseph Ruggiero John Verilla Victor Schiappa Carl Venturato John Caramadre Vincent Caraciollo Dennis Colello

Youngstown/ Warren, Ohio
Vincent “Jimmy” Prato Joey Naples Lenine Strollo Ernest Biondillo Bernard Altshuller Frank Lentine Paul “Pinto” Holovatick Peter Cascarelli
Peeps and spider switched to work with Naples

I don't know if this makes a difference, but only Jimmy, Joey and Lenny were made guys.

1980. Only Jimmy Two guns and Big Dom were made. JOEY and Lenny were made in 1987. They were well respected associates until 87

In all the years I played poker with Two Gun Jimmy no one ever referred to him as "Jimmy Two Guns". Same guy though

I was typing from my phone. When Jo Jo was locked up in 1980, Henry was in charge of WV, correct?

That's an interesting question. After Joe went to college, there wasn't much left in West Virginia.
I can't remember if they kept The Red Dog open after Joe went away, but it wasn't open for long if they did.
While or if it was open then Henry was in charge, something we never discussed. Other wise, your guess is as good as mine.

Not just the clubs, the gambling. I know that Silvio Pinciaro was still operating in Weirton and Paul had his crew in Wheeling. They were answering to somebody...if Henry was making stops to see Paul, Jack DeSarro and Silvio...then they were answering to him...plus he was Jo Jo’s right hand man

I agree with all with the possible exception of Paul. I know that every time Henry and i visited Paul, they seemed to be on equal basis. Maybe not, just my personal observation. Henry may have been Jo Jo's right hand man, but i know for a fact that Henry never got paid like a "right hand man" until Michael.

[JCB1977]

From the government not sure on accuracy
Altoona, Pennsylvania,
Alfred Corbo Joseph Ruggiero John Verilla Victor Schiappa Carl Venturato John Caramadre Vincent Caraciollo Dennis Colello

Youngstown/ Warren, Ohio
Vincent “Jimmy” Prato Joey Naples Lenine Strollo Ernest Biondillo Bernard Altshuller Frank Lentine Paul “Pinto” Holovatick Peter Cascarelli
Peeps and spider switched to work with Naples

I don't know if this makes a difference, but only Jimmy, Joey and Lenny were made guys.

1980. Only Jimmy Two guns and Big Dom were made. JOEY and Lenny were made in 1987. They were well respected associates until 87

In all the years I played poker with Two Gun Jimmy no one ever referred to him as "Jimmy Two Guns". Same guy though

I was typing from my phone. When Jo Jo was locked up in 1980, Henry was in charge of WV, correct?

That's an interesting question. After Joe went to college, there wasn't much left in West Virginia.
I can't remember if they kept The Red Dog open after Joe went away, but it wasn't open for long if they did.
While or if it was open then Henry was in charge, something we never discussed. Other wise, your guess is as good as mine.

Not just the clubs, the gambling. I know that Silvio Pinciaro was still operating in Weirton and Paul had his crew in Wheeling. They were answering to somebody...if Henry was making stops to see Paul, Jack DeSarro and Silvio...then they were answering to him...plus he was Jo Jo’s right hand man

I agree with all with the possible exception of Paul. I know that every time Henry and i visited Paul, they seemed to be on equal basis. Maybe not, just my personal observation. Henry may have been Jo Jo's right hand man, but i know for a fact that Henry never got paid like a "right hand man" until Michael.

Regardless of what Henry got paid by Jo Jo, at the end of the day, Henry superseded Paul because he was Italian and Paul was Lebanese. Henry was on his way to being made, Paul was not. If Jo Jo took tribute from Paul, Henry took Jo Jo's piece from Paul.

[FriendofHenry]

From the government not sure on accuracy
Altoona, Pennsylvania,
Alfred Corbo Joseph Ruggiero John Verilla Victor Schiappa Carl Venturato John Caramadre Vincent Caraciollo Dennis Colello

Youngstown/ Warren, Ohio
Vincent “Jimmy” Prato Joey Naples Lenine Strollo Ernest Biondillo Bernard Altshuller Frank Lentine Paul “Pinto” Holovatick Peter Cascarelli
Peeps and spider switched to work with Naples

I don't know if this makes a difference, but only Jimmy, Joey and Lenny were made guys.

1980. Only Jimmy Two guns and Big Dom were made. JOEY and Lenny were made in 1987. They were well respected associates until 87

In all the years I played poker with Two Gun Jimmy no one ever referred to him as "Jimmy Two Guns". Same guy though

I was typing from my phone. When Jo Jo was locked up in 1980, Henry was in charge of WV, correct?

That's an interesting question. After Joe went to college, there wasn't much left in West Virginia.
I can't remember if they kept The Red Dog open after Joe went away, but it wasn't open for long if they did.
While or if it was open then Henry was in charge, something we never discussed. Other wise, your guess is as good as mine.

Not just the clubs, the gambling. I know that Silvio Pinciaro was still operating in Weirton and Paul had his crew in Wheeling. They were answering to somebody...if Henry was making stops to see Paul, Jack DeSarro and Silvio...then they were answering to him...plus he was Jo Jo’s right hand man

I agree with all with the possible exception of Paul. I know that every time Henry and i visited Paul, they seemed to be on equal basis. Maybe not, just my personal observation. Henry may have been Jo Jo's right hand man, but i know for a fact that Henry never got paid like a "right hand man" until Michael.

Regardless of what Henry got paid by Jo Jo, at the end of the day, Henry superseded Paul because he was Italian and Paul was Lebanese. Henry was on his way to being made, Paul was not. If Jo Jo took tribute from Paul, Henry took Jo Jo's piece from Paul.

Because of my personal experience with both Paul and Henry, I can say without reservation that Henry treated Paul with respect. At the time that i was traveling with Henry whenever he talked about "that thing" (Being made) it was something he preferred not because of all the attention that came with it.Thus at that time he was not on his way to being made and I'll bet your research never showed that. If fact shortly after we met we agreed that Michael made Henry so that he could control Lenny. Up til then it was reported the Henry was not a made man. If Henry took his piece from Paul then I'll bet he took it before Jo Jo got his end. Most of the envelopes., or they used 12lb. paper bags, were deals that they did together like postal stamps. I know what I know and I respect your research, but first hand experience seems to supersede all. You tell me.

[JCB1977]

From the government not sure on accuracy
Altoona, Pennsylvania,
Alfred Corbo Joseph Ruggiero John Verilla Victor Schiappa Carl Venturato John Caramadre Vincent Caraciollo Dennis Colello

Youngstown/ Warren, Ohio
Vincent “Jimmy” Prato Joey Naples Lenine Strollo Ernest Biondillo Bernard Altshuller Frank Lentine Paul “Pinto” Holovatick Peter Cascarelli
Peeps and spider switched to work with Naples

I don't know if this makes a difference, but only Jimmy, Joey and Lenny were made guys.

1980. Only Jimmy Two guns and Big Dom were made. JOEY and Lenny were made in 1987. They were well respected associates until 87

In all the years I played poker with Two Gun Jimmy no one ever referred to him as "Jimmy Two Guns". Same guy though

I was typing from my phone. When Jo Jo was locked up in 1980, Henry was in charge of WV, correct?

That's an interesting question. After Joe went to college, there wasn't much left in West Virginia.
I can't remember if they kept The Red Dog open after Joe went away, but it wasn't open for long if they did.
While or if it was open then Henry was in charge, something we never discussed. Other wise, your guess is as good as mine.

Not just the clubs, the gambling. I know that Silvio Pinciaro was still operating in Weirton and Paul had his crew in Wheeling. They were answering to somebody...if Henry was making stops to see Paul, Jack DeSarro and Silvio...then they were answering to him...plus he was Jo Jo’s right hand man

I agree with all with the possible exception of Paul. I know that every time Henry and i visited Paul, they seemed to be on equal basis. Maybe not, just my personal observation. Henry may have been Jo Jo's right hand man, but i know for a fact that Henry never got paid like a "right hand man" until Michael.

Regardless of what Henry got paid by Jo Jo, at the end of the day, Henry superseded Paul because he was Italian and Paul was Lebanese. Henry was on his way to being made, Paul was not. If Jo Jo took tribute from Paul, Henry took Jo Jo's piece from Paul.

Because of my personal experience with both Paul and Henry, I can say without reservation that Henry treated Paul with respect. At the time that i was traveling with Henry whenever he talked about "that thing" (Being made) it was something he preferred not because of all the attention that came with it.Thus at that time he was not on his way to being made and I'll bet your research never showed that. If fact shortly after we met we agreed that Michael made Henry so that he could control Lenny. Up til then it was reported the Henry was not a made man. If Henry took his piece from Paul then I'll bet he took it before Jo Jo got his end. Most of the envelopes., or they used 12lb. paper bags, were deals that they did together like postal stamps. I know what I know and I respect your research, but first hand experience seems to supersede all. You tell me.

He was viewed as a major income producer and very capable because of his long affiliation with Jo Jo...and Michael knew it and so did the upper brass. Considered a high ranking associate by his peers and federal law enforcement qualifies my statement that he was on his way to new heights...whether he wanted it or not. Henry was old school as we have discussed, thus if the boss calls to bump you up...you don’t say no. Hence my conclusion that he was on his way up. In regards to Henry paying respect to Paul, I don’t doubt it. Paul was closest to Joseph “Demus” Covello of the Gambino Crime Family, that carried weight. Henry was respectful to his peers unless he had a problem with you, no? Henry paid respect to Joey, no? Lenny? Chucky?

I’m not trying to argue with you. Don’t take my observation and turn it into the “I was there” argument. I know your relationship with Henry better than anybody on the board. You will be very helpful. But I am aiming for pinpoint accuracy with as much evidentiary support as possible. Court records, informants, law enforcement etc. Your help will always be very valueable to me but there is an entire wing of the family that with all due respect, you didn’t know or have any dealings with. And probably another 15-20 high ranking associates who you didn’t deal with. Steubenville, Altoona/Johnstown, East Pittsburgh, Fayette & Washington County.

It wouldn’t surprise me if Henry worked crimes with Paul. Especially on the narcotics end of it. My point was when Jo Jo went away, Henry was his eyes and ears, not Paul. If Henry went to Big John and Paul went to Big John...who does Big John side with? Not some Middle Eastern legless thug who ran prostitution throughout the pan handle of WV.

[FriendofHenry]

Always good to know that research trumps all. I only know what I know from my personal relationship with Michael, Charlie, Jo Jo and his brothers, Charlie, Pat and even Paul. If that means I was there then I was there. I'm sure you've got plenty to tell me about all of them. Obviously you knew them better than I did. I'll just sit back and learn. BTW: When did I say or even imply that Paul was Joe's eyes and ears or that Paul trumped Henry's influence with John.

[Stroccos]

Always good to know that research trumps all. I only know what I know from my personal relationship with Michael, Charlie, Jo Jo and his brothers, Charlie, Pat and even Paul. If that means I was there then I was there. I'm sure you've got plenty to tell me about all of them. Obviously you knew them better than I did. I'll just sit back and learn. BTW: When did I say or even imply that Paul was Joe's eyes and ears or that Paul trumped Henry's influence with John.

If zebo went to wheeling and fucked with Paul hankish with out permission from Jojo Pecora or the pitt top brass , Zebo would of been whacked

I would think Hankish would outrank zebo , even though he was lebanese he was A boss of his terroity, zebo while a highly respected associate wasnt on hankish level

[Stroccos]

From the government not sure on accuracy
Altoona, Pennsylvania,
Alfred Corbo Joseph Ruggiero John Verilla Victor Schiappa Carl Venturato John Caramadre Vincent Caraciollo Dennis Colello

Youngstown/ Warren, Ohio
Vincent “Jimmy” Prato Joey Naples Lenine Strollo Ernest Biondillo Bernard Altshuller Frank Lentine Paul “Pinto” Holovatick Peter Cascarelli
Peeps and spider switched to work with Naples

I don't know if this makes a difference, but only Jimmy, Joey and Lenny were made guys.

1980. Only Jimmy Two guns and Big Dom were made. JOEY and Lenny were made in 1987. They were well respected associates until 87

In all the years I played poker with Two Gun Jimmy no one ever referred to him as "Jimmy Two Guns". Same guy though

I was typing from my phone. When Jo Jo was locked up in 1980, Henry was in charge of WV, correct?

That's an interesting question. After Joe went to college, there wasn't much left in West Virginia.
I can't remember if they kept The Red Dog open after Joe went away, but it wasn't open for long if they did.
While or if it was open then Henry was in charge, something we never discussed. Other wise, your guess is as good as mine.

Not just the clubs, the gambling. I know that Silvio Pinciaro was still operating in Weirton and Paul had his crew in Wheeling. They were answering to somebody...if Henry was making stops to see Paul, Jack DeSarro and Silvio...then they were answering to him...plus he was Jo Jo’s right hand man

I agree with all with the possible exception of Paul. I know that every time Henry and i visited Paul, they seemed to be on equal basis. Maybe not, just my personal observation. Henry may have been Jo Jo's right hand man, but i know for a fact that Henry never got paid like a "right hand man" until Michael.

Regardless of what Henry got paid by Jo Jo, at the end of the day, Henry superseded Paul because he was Italian and Paul was Lebanese. Henry was on his way to being made, Paul was not. If Jo Jo took tribute from Paul, Henry took Jo Jo's piece from Paul.

Because of my personal experience with both Paul and Henry, I can say without reservation that Henry treated Paul with respect. At the time that i was traveling with Henry whenever he talked about "that thing" (Being made) it was something he preferred not because of all the attention that came with it.Thus at that time he was not on his way to being made and I'll bet your research never showed that. If fact shortly after we met we agreed that Michael made Henry so that he could control Lenny. Up til then it was reported the Henry was not a made man. If Henry took his piece from Paul then I'll bet he took it before Jo Jo got his end. Most of the envelopes., or they used 12lb. paper bags, were deals that they did together like postal stamps. I know what I know and I respect your research, but first hand experience seems to supersede all. You tell me.

well if zebo was the bagman , wouldn't he just be picking up pecoras money ? I don't see how that translates to hankish reporting to Zebo , unless your saying Zebo took over pecoras crew as acting boss of sorts?
btw it was known zebo was made as it was in testimoneyto at one of the drug trials

[FriendofHenry]

Always good to know that research trumps all. I only know what I know from my personal relationship with Michael, Charlie, Jo Jo and his brothers, Charlie, Pat and even Paul. If that means I was there then I was there. I'm sure you've got plenty to tell me about all of them. Obviously you knew them better than I did. I'll just sit back and learn. BTW: When did I say or even imply that Paul was Joe's eyes and ears or that Paul trumped Henry's influence with John.

If zebo went to wheeling and fucked with Paul hankish with out permission from Jojo Pecora or the pitt top brass , Zebo would of been whacked

I would think Hankish would outrank zebo , even though he was lebanese he was A boss of his terroity, zebo while a highly respected associate wasnt on hankish level

Without question the majority Henry's visits to Paul were trips for Jo Jo. I'm sure they involved picking up tribute as that was hen we would get paper bags to bring home. However Henry and Paul were involved in the postage stamp business. Henry robbed the post offices and Paul had a coin dealer in Dayton that fenced the goods. I have no idea if that was strictly a Paul and Henry deal or if Jo Jo and John were cut in on the deal.

I understand what you're saying about Paul being higher ranked than Zebo. Hell, he controlled a big piece of the action in West Virginia. I actually agree. Additionally, I'm firmly convinced until otherwise shown, that Zebo was not a made man at the time. We'll see what the research shows, but i'm convinced that Henrey wasn't made until Michael was boss. We'll see what we shall see.

[JCB1977]

Soliai,

Please lock this thread. It’s finito.

Thanks,

JCB

[JCB1977]

[quote=Stroccos post_id=85080 time=1533402971 user_id=2183]
From the government not sure on accuracy
Altoona, Pennsylvania,
Alfred Corbo Joseph Ruggiero John Verilla Victor Schiappa Carl Venturato John Caramadre Vincent Caraciollo Dennis Colello

Youngstown/ Warren, Ohio
Vincent “Jimmy” Prato Joey Naples Lenine Strollo Ernest Biondillo Bernard Altshuller Frank Lentine Paul “Pinto” Holovatick Peter Cascarelli
Peeps and spider switched to work with Naples

I don't know if this makes a difference, but only Jimmy, Joey and Lenny were made guys.

1980. Only Jimmy Two guns and Big Dom were made. JOEY and Lenny were made in 1987. They were well respected associates until 87

In all the years I played poker with Two Gun Jimmy no one ever referred to him as "Jimmy Two Guns". Same guy though

I was typing from my phone. When Jo Jo was locked up in 1980, Henry was in charge of WV, correct?

That's an interesting question. After Joe went to college, there wasn't much left in West Virginia.
I can't remember if they kept The Red Dog open after Joe went away, but it wasn't open for long if they did.
While or if it was open then Henry was in charge, something we never discussed. Other wise, your guess is as good as mine.

Not just the clubs, the gambling. I know that Silvio Pinciaro was still operating in Weirton and Paul had his crew in Wheeling. They were answering to somebody...if Henry was making stops to see Paul, Jack DeSarro and Silvio...then they were answering to him...plus he was Jo Jo’s right hand man

I agree with all with the possible exception of Paul. I know that every time Henry and i visited Paul, they seemed to be on equal basis. Maybe not, just my personal observation. Henry may have been Jo Jo's right hand man, but i know for a fact that Henry never got paid like a "right hand man" until Michael.

Regardless of what Henry got paid by Jo Jo, at the end of the day, Henry superseded Paul because he was Italian and Paul was Lebanese. Henry was on his way to being made, Paul was not. If Jo Jo took tribute from Paul, Henry took Jo Jo's piece from Paul.

Because of my personal experience with both Paul and Henry, I can say without reservation that Henry treated Paul with respect. At the time that i was traveling with Henry whenever he talked about "that thing" (Being made) it was something he preferred not because of all the attention that came with it.Thus at that time he was not on his way to being made and I'll bet your research never showed that. If fact shortly after we met we agreed that Michael made Henry so that he could control Lenny. Up til then it was reported the Henry was not a made man. If Henry took his piece from Paul then I'll bet he took it before Jo Jo got his end. Most of the envelopes., or they used 12lb. paper bags, were deals that they did together like postal stamps. I know what I know and I respect your research, but first hand experience seems to supersede all. You tell me.

well if zebo was the bagman , wouldn't he just be picking up pecoras money ? I don't see how that translates to hankish reporting to Zebo , unless your saying Zebo took over pecoras crew as acting boss of sorts?
btw it was known zebo was made as it was in testimoneyto at one of the drug trials
[/quote]

Never said Zebo outranked Paul in 1980. Zebo was Jo Jo's right hand man and protege. I never said Henry fucked with Paul. What I implied was that if Jo Jo took a cut of Paul's rackets (and I'm willing to bet that he did), then Henry would have been collecting Jo Jo's cut while Joe was in Lexington.

[Stroccos]

Always good to know that research trumps all. I only know what I know from my personal relationship with Michael, Charlie, Jo Jo and his brothers, Charlie, Pat and even Paul. If that means I was there then I was there. I'm sure you've got plenty to tell me about all of them. Obviously you knew them better than I did. I'll just sit back and learn. BTW: When did I say or even imply that Paul was Joe's eyes and ears or that Paul trumped Henry's influence with John.

If zebo went to wheeling and fucked with Paul hankish with out permission from Jojo Pecora or the pitt top brass , Zebo would of been whacked

I would think Hankish would outrank zebo , even though he was lebanese he was A boss of his terroity, zebo while a highly respected associate wasnt on hankish level

Without question the majority Henry's visits to Paul were trips for Jo Jo. I'm sure they involved picking up tribute as that was hen we would get paper bags to bring home. However Henry and Paul were involved in the postage stamp business. Henry robbed the post offices and Paul had a coin dealer in Dayton that fenced the goods. I have no idea if that was strictly a Paul and Henry deal or if Jo Jo and John were cut in on the deal.

I understand what you're saying about Paul being higher ranked than Zebo. Hell, he controlled a big piece of the action in West Virginia. I actually agree. Additionally, I'm firmly convinced until otherwise shown, that Zebo was not a made man at the time. We'll see what the research shows, but i'm convinced that Henrey wasn't made until Michael was boss. We'll see what we shall see.

I have no idea when zebo was made all I am saying is he was named as a made guy in the drug trials in the late 80's , so by 1989 the feds/witness are saying he was a made guy. So I agree he was made by Genovese the only question is when

Foh I would also love to know when Ferruccio was made