Relationship between Philly and Gambino’s now

[joeycigars]

The local books I know, the people place the bets through the site with no card, so all bets are taken on credit and settling up is always done in cash. They still collect through classic extortionate means using threats and/or violence when necessary. That industry hasn’t changed that much. this is how it is here, Chicago area, with the books I am aware of, don’t know what they do anywhere else

Same here in NY you get a password to the site and a money limit then you bet online pay the local bookie collect from the bookie no credit cards online thats insane this aint Vegas

[PHL_Mob]

Does anyone have any info on Eric esposito? Does anyone know anything about his wife who is Nicky Corozzo’s daughter. Sounds like all his daughters married made guys...

[TommyNoto]

To add to this here is Natale talking about the streat tax and video poker business during the 90s. Shows just how little money these guy's were bringing in. When taken all in it is clear that Philly is not taking in big money (the tens or hundreds of millions a year that was suggested earlier).

To be fair, I think TommyNoto said, "In total Philly must be running tens and even hundred million annual sports book across NJ, PA and DE."

If he meant how much money is being wagered with their sportsbooks, I would agree it would be in the tens of millions. Which is why I used the Borgata case, which handled $60 million in bets over 20 months, as an example. But it also shows that there's a big difference between money wagered and how much ends up as actual net profit. And when you divide so many ways with the people involved, including some of it going up the ladder, one sees that you're right about taking a realistic view of how much these guys are making.

Yes I meant total money wagered and believe I had a follow on post to clarify that . I have 2 friends that have independent books and the bank usually earns about 5% of wagers but the earning amount is very volatile with some monster weeks and some big losing weeks so you have to have a big bankroll to ride out the losing weeks or in most cases a big shy to borrow thru the tough times.

There are a lot more independent today vs 10 Year’s ago as it’s so easy to set up and the Westside ( and maybe the Luchesse ?) have a online offshore servicing business that charge per the head which is another big money maker and a newer core business that wasn’t around 20 years ago . The huge growth in online sports gambling is what has largely kept the mob around the last 15-20 years as it had all sorts of ancillary ways for blue collar guys to earn steady income ( book servicing , shy and collections ) and loads of new suburban customers .

It will be interesting to see the effect of legal gambling and while I don’t think it will have a huge impact near term due to the credit and tax advantage (8-12% of winnings ) they will lose material volume to AC and tracks in their major events ( Super Bowl , Bowl Games , March Madenss, openin week NFL / MLB) which could really hurt as a big % of their profits is from these big events.

I’m from Hudson county and most independents have to pay the West side and this arrangement has made them a lot of $ without too much work . I have friends in Belleville and that is more Luchesse and Westside that will be kicking up but Gambino have some gambling rackets their ( from what I can gather from Staten Island) but Hudson is west side and I can only imagine how much they bring in from gambling but also huge real estate and garbage , port rackets . They must be killing it last 10 years . It’s interesting as areas like JC have bodegas ( likely while days ) that handle action and I’m very curious if they kick up at all ( I have I clue to be honest but see bodegas handle solid volume .)

[Wiseguy]

The local books I know, the people place the bets through the site with no card, so all bets are taken on credit and settling up is always done in cash. They still collect through classic extortionate means using threats and/or violence when necessary. That industry hasn’t changed that much. this is how it is here, Chicago area, with the books I am aware of, don’t know what they do anywhere else

Same here in NY you get a password to the site and a money limit then you bet online pay the local bookie collect from the bookie no credit cards online thats insane this aint Vegas

A good example is the 2012 indictment of Genovese captain Joseph Lascala as well the owner of the Beteagle website -

As part of the conspiracy, associates of the crew were given access to Beteagle and were considered “agents.” Before the advent of computerized betting, these agents would have been referred to as “bookmakers” or “bookies.” The agents had the ability to track the “sub-agents,” under them and the wagers placed by their bettors. The agent or sub-agent maintained a group of bettors (the “package”) and were responsible for those bettors.

To place bets online, the agent or sub-agent issued the bettor a username and password to access Beteagle. This access was not given online and no money or credits were made or transferred through the website. Associates of the crew paid out winnings or collected losses in person. If a bettor failed to pay his gambling losses, the crew used their La Cosa Nostra status and threats of violence to collect on these debts.
https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-of ... -in-prison

[Rocco]

Most of me and my friends bet small.. On one game I will place may 3 small bets $20 on the spread. $10-20 on two other types of bets. And I transfer or charge the money per game. Its extremely rare where I will leave even $100 in the account because as you stated what if the site is shut down? Your articles says that a small time bet is $500. lol That is completely false. The way me and my friends bet ...that's a large bet ! Remember that article is LE influenced to demonizing gambling. The only people I know that are meeting up with bookies are people making $500 bets and up...BECAUSE they are large bets. I know people that bet $1200 on a game. And their bets on that one game total $1200 as they bet several different ways on that one game. They meet up at the local bar once a week with their bookie. Or the bookie comes right to their corporate office if they bet heavy are on a steady customer. If you take the 2.2billion book over 15months(and I think the feds really stretched that number) I would bet money($15 ) that a good chunk of those bets were small time under a couple hundred dollars. The great thing about these Website is that you can really bet on almost ANY aspect of the game. Not just the spread. That's why so many people make small time bets that might total $80-100 on that one game. When I worked in NYC at an unnamed company . About 50% of the people playing the office Football Pool were betting on games on these off shore websites. Not one of them probably ever even saw a bookie once. Football parties you got 12 guys making small bets onlines. Betting on all aspects of the game. Small bets $15 here . $25 here. Nothing crazy. When the mob started doing these websites It really increased there income when it comes sports gambling. So if you got 1200 guys betting a total $80 twice a week that's $192k in wagers for the week. Then add in all the degenerate gamblers that will gamble away their own mother. Its adds up.
And again I am really unsure of the point you are trying to make by posting all these articles. ??

Is your point that every better must meet with a bookie because they are afraid of the IRS? Or they are afraid of losing $100 online so they take the risk of meeting with a bookie who could be under investigation? Is that you point here? If so ...its not true. and these articles are false when they say a small time bet is $500. That's a big bet for a normal better. So that statement is false. I might bet $100 on the super bowl or play off game. And that's a big bet for me and guys I know who bet for FUN to bet a total of $100 on one game. I get every football season and I haven't had to physically see a bookie in 10yrs ! And what if by some long shot that the LE takes down the site and decides to spend the man hours tracking down every 1200 guys who made $80 bets per game over a 3 month period...6 games that is 480 in bets. say I won a total of $300 in those bets. Am I really gonna sweat paying the IRS on $300 in winnings ? get the fuck ata here !

The article said $500 could be a settle up number for smaller bettors. Not that they're making $500 bets.

I agree that the mob will still have the degenerate gambler who are in the hole and need to bet on credit thru a loan. But these are guys that don't have the cash or cant get a credit card because they already maxed theirs out gambling. Yes the mob will have these guys. But for the thousands of normal bettors that bet for fun like me...if there is a website I can bet into legally in NJ ...hell yes I am going to do that over the illegal website. Why not? What do I have to gain by betting illegally? The mob surely fee the pain from legal sport betting but it wont put them out of business completely. I think they def end up giving juice loans to the degenerate gamblers so they can go bet legally. I have known plenty of guys over the years with serious gambling problems that DO NOT bet on sport but only in the casino's. Mob guys extend credit to these guys as well. So I think it will hurt their sports book but probably not their Loan sharking rackets. Mob still has plenty of floating mini casino's in north jersey with a 40k bank for loans. They still exist even though you have a Casino in Bethlehem PA and Atlantic City. Guys still go to these and play poker on credit. But prior to AC opening in the 1970s these floating casino were much much bigger. What happened was people that do not have serious gambling problems stopped going to them. They went to a legal casino because they do not need to bet on credit thru a mob loan. I think the same thing will happen with sports gambling being legalized if they can get a website up legally. The website if key. People like to bet on sports from their couches. They do not want to drive to a casino to do it. that is key

If New Jersey bettors want to bet legally from their couch, whenever that becomes available, it will be a 13% tax on their winnings.

I don't mind paying 13% if I can bet legally. And most small time bettors wont mind either I would imagine if we can do it on a website from our couch watching the game. Me and most of my buddies probably wouldn't bet during Hoops season and football season if we couldn't do it on a website from our couch. But from the what they have in mind on Legal Sports betting it doesn't look like it will be done online but rather at the track or casino's which means Mob backed Websites will still get action. And a big chunk of that action is small time bettors. The idea that the couple Sports Book the Luchese's ran back in 2007 that took in 2.2bil in action over 15mos had each bettor meeting up with a bookie to settle up in person is incredibly false ! They would need a fuckin ARMY of guys to settle with thousands of bettors every week. I believe if you read the indictment they stated that they were wiring money to/ and from Costa Rica so they could settle winnings online for bettors as well as in person etc. Think about how many guys they would need on the street nationwide to settle with all the bettors that would take to add up to 2.2billion dollars in wagers in 15months. Its impossible. You had a massive amount of small time bettors from College Students to guys like me betting $20 here and from all over not just NJ, PA and NY. The Website's were created to increase the amount of bets they could take. That's the whole purpose of the website for people from across the country to bet into it if need be. I totally agree that they might collect large bets in person or large payouts in person. But I know for a fact you can roll your small winnings online or collect them back. That's what is great about the websites. And I hope the State of NJ catches on to that. It would greatly increase their revenue

[Rocco]

The local books I know, the people place the bets through the site with no card, so all bets are taken on credit and settling up is always done in cash. They still collect through classic extortionate means using threats and/or violence when necessary. That industry hasn’t changed that much. this is how it is here, Chicago area, with the books I am aware of, don’t know what they do anywhere else

Same here in NY you get a password to the site and a money limit then you bet online pay the local bookie collect from the bookie no credit cards online thats insane this aint Vegas

A good example is the 2012 indictment of Genovese captain Joseph Lascala as well the owner of the Beteagle website -

As part of the conspiracy, associates of the crew were given access to Beteagle and were considered “agents.” Before the advent of computerized betting, these agents would have been referred to as “bookmakers” or “bookies.” The agents had the ability to track the “sub-agents,” under them and the wagers placed by their bettors. The agent or sub-agent maintained a group of bettors (the “package”) and were responsible for those bettors.

To place bets online, the agent or sub-agent issued the bettor a username and password to access Beteagle. This access was not given online and no money or credits were made or transferred through the website. Associates of the crew paid out winnings or collected losses in person. If a bettor failed to pay his gambling losses, the crew used their La Cosa Nostra status and threats of violence to collect on these debts.
https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-of ... -in-prison

I never placed a bet thru Beteagle..? also I have bet into websites that I am pretty sure were not connected to LCN online that were based in Antigua. You will not be able to research indictments and articles on this one Wiseguy especially since you admitted that you never placed a bet online....

Its allot like posting articles about what a pussy feels like but admitting that you have never actually gotten your dick wet.....

[TJ]

Ill admit inhavent read much of what this arguement is about..but rocco, with your permission, i will defintely use this.in the future, on here and on the street
.hilarious

Its allot like posting articles about what a pussy feels like but admitting that you have never actually gotten your dick wet..... 

[Cheech]

Most of me and my friends bet small.. On one game I will place may 3 small bets $20 on the spread. $10-20 on two other types of bets. And I transfer or charge the money per game. Its extremely rare where I will leave even $100 in the account because as you stated what if the site is shut down? Your articles says that a small time bet is $500. lol That is completely false. The way me and my friends bet ...that's a large bet ! Remember that article is LE influenced to demonizing gambling. The only people I know that are meeting up with bookies are people making $500 bets and up...BECAUSE they are large bets. I know people that bet $1200 on a game. And their bets on that one game total $1200 as they bet several different ways on that one game. They meet up at the local bar once a week with their bookie. Or the bookie comes right to their corporate office if they bet heavy are on a steady customer. If you take the 2.2billion book over 15months(and I think the feds really stretched that number) I would bet money($15 ) that a good chunk of those bets were small time under a couple hundred dollars. The great thing about these Website is that you can really bet on almost ANY aspect of the game. Not just the spread. That's why so many people make small time bets that might total $80-100 on that one game. When I worked in NYC at an unnamed company . About 50% of the people playing the office Football Pool were betting on games on these off shore websites. Not one of them probably ever even saw a bookie once. Football parties you got 12 guys making small bets onlines. Betting on all aspects of the game. Small bets $15 here . $25 here. Nothing crazy. When the mob started doing these websites It really increased there income when it comes sports gambling. So if you got 1200 guys betting a total $80 twice a week that's $192k in wagers for the week. Then add in all the degenerate gamblers that will gamble away their own mother. Its adds up.
And again I am really unsure of the point you are trying to make by posting all these articles. ??

Is your point that every better must meet with a bookie because they are afraid of the IRS? Or they are afraid of losing $100 online so they take the risk of meeting with a bookie who could be under investigation? Is that you point here? If so ...its not true. and these articles are false when they say a small time bet is $500. That's a big bet for a normal better. So that statement is false. I might bet $100 on the super bowl or play off game. And that's a big bet for me and guys I know who bet for FUN to bet a total of $100 on one game. I get every football season and I haven't had to physically see a bookie in 10yrs ! And what if by some long shot that the LE takes down the site and decides to spend the man hours tracking down every 1200 guys who made $80 bets per game over a 3 month period...6 games that is 480 in bets. say I won a total of $300 in those bets. Am I really gonna sweat paying the IRS on $300 in winnings ? get the fuck ata here !

The article said $500 could be a settle up number for smaller bettors. Not that they're making $500 bets.

I agree that the mob will still have the degenerate gambler who are in the hole and need to bet on credit thru a loan. But these are guys that don't have the cash or cant get a credit card because they already maxed theirs out gambling. Yes the mob will have these guys. But for the thousands of normal bettors that bet for fun like me...if there is a website I can bet into legally in NJ ...hell yes I am going to do that over the illegal website. Why not? What do I have to gain by betting illegally? The mob surely fee the pain from legal sport betting but it wont put them out of business completely. I think they def end up giving juice loans to the degenerate gamblers so they can go bet legally. I have known plenty of guys over the years with serious gambling problems that DO NOT bet on sport but only in the casino's. Mob guys extend credit to these guys as well. So I think it will hurt their sports book but probably not their Loan sharking rackets. Mob still has plenty of floating mini casino's in north jersey with a 40k bank for loans. They still exist even though you have a Casino in Bethlehem PA and Atlantic City. Guys still go to these and play poker on credit. But prior to AC opening in the 1970s these floating casino were much much bigger. What happened was people that do not have serious gambling problems stopped going to them. They went to a legal casino because they do not need to bet on credit thru a mob loan. I think the same thing will happen with sports gambling being legalized if they can get a website up legally. The website if key. People like to bet on sports from their couches. They do not want to drive to a casino to do it. that is key

If New Jersey bettors want to bet legally from their couch, whenever that becomes available, it will be a 13% tax on their winnings.

I don't mind paying 13% if I can bet legally. And most small time bettors wont mind either I would imagine if we can do it on a website from our couch watching the game. Me and most of my buddies probably wouldn't bet during Hoops season and football season if we couldn't do it on a website from our couch. But from the what they have in mind on Legal Sports betting it doesn't look like it will be done online but rather at the track or casino's which means Mob backed Websites will still get action. And a big chunk of that action is small time bettors. The idea that the couple Sports Book the Luchese's ran back in 2007 that took in 2.2bil in action over 15mos had each bettor meeting up with a bookie to settle up in person is incredibly false ! They would need a fuckin ARMY of guys to settle with thousands of bettors every week. I believe if you read the indictment they stated that they were wiring money to/ and from Costa Rica so they could settle winnings online for bettors as well as in person etc. Think about how many guys they would need on the street nationwide to settle with all the bettors that would take to add up to 2.2billion dollars in wagers in 15months. Its impossible. You had a massive amount of small time bettors from College Students to guys like me betting $20 here and from all over not just NJ, PA and NY. The Website's were created to increase the amount of bets they could take. That's the whole purpose of the website for people from across the country to bet into it if need be. I totally agree that they might collect large bets in person or large payouts in person. But I know for a fact you can roll your small winnings online or collect them back. That's what is great about the websites. And I hope the State of NJ catches on to that. It would greatly increase their revenue

you're wrong. they settle with agents/sub agents on a quarter or fifty sheet. 20 agents = thousands of players. the money they sent down there was what they owed the site for using it, hence PPH. I get why you thought that but its false.

[Cheech]

The local books I know, the people place the bets through the site with no card, so all bets are taken on credit and settling up is always done in cash. They still collect through classic extortionate means using threats and/or violence when necessary. That industry hasn’t changed that much. this is how it is here, Chicago area, with the books I am aware of, don’t know what they do anywhere else

Same here in NY you get a password to the site and a money limit then you bet online pay the local bookie collect from the bookie no credit cards online thats insane this aint Vegas

A good example is the 2012 indictment of Genovese captain Joseph Lascala as well the owner of the Beteagle website -

As part of the conspiracy, associates of the crew were given access to Beteagle and were considered “agents.” Before the advent of computerized betting, these agents would have been referred to as “bookmakers” or “bookies.” The agents had the ability to track the “sub-agents,” under them and the wagers placed by their bettors. The agent or sub-agent maintained a group of bettors (the “package”) and were responsible for those bettors.

To place bets online, the agent or sub-agent issued the bettor a username and password to access Beteagle. This access was not given online and no money or credits were made or transferred through the website. Associates of the crew paid out winnings or collected losses in person. If a bettor failed to pay his gambling losses, the crew used their La Cosa Nostra status and threats of violence to collect on these debts.
https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-of ... -in-prison

Ive tried to convince you to no avail years ago but that guy didnt own beteagle. beteagle is up and running right now and it is also a post up shop. if the real owner got arrested you would bet your ass they would be seized. I know you go word for word in indictments and i got no beef with you but this time the wording is wrong and the guy graziano for sure doesnt and didnt own eagle...

[Cheech]

To add to this here is Natale talking about the streat tax and video poker business during the 90s. Shows just how little money these guy's were bringing in. When taken all in it is clear that Philly is not taking in big money (the tens or hundreds of millions a year that was suggested earlier).

To be fair, I think TommyNoto said, "In total Philly must be running tens and even hundred million annual sports book across NJ, PA and DE."

If he meant how much money is being wagered with their sportsbooks, I would agree it would be in the tens of millions. Which is why I used the Borgata case, which handled $60 million in bets over 20 months, as an example. But it also shows that there's a big difference between money wagered and how much ends up as actual net profit. And when you divide so many ways with the people involved, including some of it going up the ladder, one sees that you're right about taking a realistic view of how much these guys are making.

Yes I meant total money wagered and believe I had a follow on post to clarify that . I have 2 friends that have independent books and the bank usually earns about 5% of wagers but the earning amount is very volatile with some monster weeks and some big losing weeks so you have to have a big bankroll to ride out the losing weeks or in most cases a big shy to borrow thru the tough times.

There are a lot more independent today vs 10 Year’s ago as it’s so easy to set up and the Westside ( and maybe the Luchesse ?) have a online offshore servicing business that charge per the head which is another big money maker and a newer core business that wasn’t around 20 years ago . The huge growth in online sports gambling is what has largely kept the mob around the last 15-20 years as it had all sorts of ancillary ways for blue collar guys to earn steady income ( book servicing , shy and collections ) and loads of new suburban customers .

It will be interesting to see the effect of legal gambling and while I don’t think it will have a huge impact near term due to the credit and tax advantage (8-12% of winnings ) they will lose material volume to AC and tracks in their major events ( Super Bowl , Bowl Games , March Madenss, openin week NFL / MLB) which could really hurt as a big % of their profits is from these big events.

I’m from Hudson county and most independents have to pay the West side and this arrangement has made them a lot of $ without too much work . I have friends in Belleville and that is more Luchesse and Westside that will be kicking up but Gambino have some gambling rackets their ( from what I can gather from Staten Island) but Hudson is west side and I can only imagine how much they bring in from gambling but also huge real estate and garbage , port rackets . They must be killing it last 10 years . It’s interesting as areas like JC have bodegas ( likely while days ) that handle action and I’m very curious if they kick up at all ( I have I clue to be honest but see bodegas handle solid volume .)

thats about what you can expect yearly. here is what I said about the Perna Luchese book bust a long time ago. i thought it was pertinent to this discussion

Someone should post this in the general forums. This is such an important document cause it tells you exactly what it's like. Exactly. A couple things I took away. They made a lot of money but not as much as you'd think.
Joe M Pernas perspective. The guy they say is running it.
Whatever the take is multiply it by 4-7% depending on sport. That's what you're likely to win. Divide it all in half now cause the agents are on a half sheet per this report. $5-$10 for every player each week for the PPH. 5-10% for the runners. Uncle Matty and Uncle joey D get there taste. 20% goes uncollected and that's conservative. Then cut it all in half cause he's splitting it with Mike Cetta. Great money but not what media and LE make it out to be. 100k worth of bets in one day you hope to win 5 (before expenses) Hell you may lose. If you don't have long paper,you won't make it for all the reasons above. These kids now never answered a phone. Never wrote it down. They think you wake,up and check the bottom. Don't work like that. These guys were calling every hour checking it out. One guy was betting sharp plays before the line moved and Joe P was all over it. Cut his limits and wanted to know where the plays were coming from so he can bet them. I'm surprised these guys were so lax on the phone. Had to know they were being watched.

[Wiseguy]

I never placed a bet thru Beteagle..? also I have bet into websites that I am pretty sure were not connected to LCN online that were based in Antigua. You will not be able to research indictments and articles on this one Wiseguy especially since you admitted that you never placed a bet online....

Its allot like posting articles about what a pussy feels like but admitting that you have never actually gotten your dick wet.....

I never said to take my word for it, though I don't think it's necessary to have personally placed a bet online to understand how it works when it comes to the mob. Besides, in addition to the majority of cases that seem to show it typically operates how I have described, it seems a few other guys here (who may have some personal experience) don't agree with what you're saying either.

Ive tried to convince you to no avail years ago but that guy didnt own beteagle. beteagle is up and running right now and it is also a post up shop. if the real owner got arrested you would bet your ass they would be seized. I know you go word for word in indictments and i got no beef with you but this time the wording is wrong and the guy graziano for sure doesnt and didnt own eagle...

Now that you mention that, I do remember that conversation. Maybe you're right about the ownership of the site. My purpose for posting that press release was simply to give another example of how a mob sports betting operation typically works.

[Cheech]

I never placed a bet thru Beteagle..? also I have bet into websites that I am pretty sure were not connected to LCN online that were based in Antigua. You will not be able to research indictments and articles on this one Wiseguy especially since you admitted that you never placed a bet online....

Its allot like posting articles about what a pussy feels like but admitting that you have never actually gotten your dick wet.....

I never said to take my word for it, though I don't think it's necessary to have personally placed a bet online to understand how it works when it comes to the mob. Besides, in addition to the majority of cases that seem to show it typically operates how I have described, it seems a few other guys here (who may have some personal experience) don't agree with what you're saying either.

Ive tried to convince you to no avail years ago but that guy didnt own beteagle. beteagle is up and running right now and it is also a post up shop. if the real owner got arrested you would bet your ass they would be seized. I know you go word for word in indictments and i got no beef with you but this time the wording is wrong and the guy graziano for sure doesnt and didnt own eagle...

Now that you mention that, I do remember that conversation. Maybe you're right about the ownership of the site. My purpose for posting that press release was simply to give another example of how a mob sports betting operation typically works.

in that context you are correct.
and you know just as much about sports betting as rocco, believe me.

[Buster123]

Rocco. You don’t mind laying $110 to win $87 ?

[Cheech]

Rocco. You don’t mind laying $110 to win $87 ?

he has 0 idea what he is saying. he already told you he bets $20. so no he doesn't care you gotta lay $23 to win $20. the real players would never lay that because they know the difference between a profit and a loss could be 1-2%

[Rocco]

Rocco. You don’t mind laying $110 to win $87 ?

he has 0 idea what he is saying. he already told you he bets $20. so no he doesn't care you gotta lay $23 to win $20. the real players would never lay that because they know the difference between a profit and a loss could be 1-2%

The Real Players ?? lmao... You gotta be a real player to bet multiple small bets on a game now? I have been betting peanuts for fun on these sites for years. Its for fun with me. I am not in it for the big day. Or as you like to call it THE REAL PLAYERS .lol I never bet large EVER . I am not one those guys. I would never would want to be one either. I am always the guy walking out of the casino with all my cash too. Wiseguy is under the impression that everyone that bets on these sites have to meet up with people and its just not the case at all.