Relationship between Philly and Gambino’s now

[NJShore4Life]

But for example of that 2.2billions in bets from the 2007 Lucchese bust...a very large chunk of that was your typical gambler betting not so large bets online with no need to bet on credit. They will loose that.

How do you figure that? To not bet on credit means a player would either have to use a credit card or deposit money in an online account, neither of which the standard mob bookmaking operation does as far as I know. And I don't recall any mention of that in the press release, affidavit, or articles about the Operation Heat bust.

Wiseguy is clearly not from Jersey / NY/ Philly area, he has zero clue Rocco.

[Wiseguy]

Wiseguy is clearly not from Jersey / NY/ Philly area, he has zero clue Rocco.

Wow, haven't seen the geography card in a while. It's like old times.

When I say bet on credit. I mean when the degenerate gambler(most have shitty credit and have maxed out credit cards that they pulled cash advanced out of) can take a loan and pay the vig every week. Every degenerate gambler I know has maxed out credit cards that they stop paying Missed mortgage payments etc then they turn to their mob connected bookie for the juice loan so they can keep betting. That's how it works. And its obvious that you have never gotten a website username and password from the local bookie to place bets online because based on what you wrote you DONT know how it works

No, I don't gamble but I understand all that. My point is that every player with a mob sports betting operation is essentially betting on credit. However, I don't think your description fits every player that bets with a mob-connected bookie, ie not all of them are down and out, cash strapped players getting buried in vig. If they can't pay, that's where certainly where a loan and making the weekly payment comes into play. But you have others, who make bets of various sizes, who do settle up from week to week with no issues.

So I'm not sure what bettors you were saying the mob is going to lose. Whether they're the type of player you described or otherwise, unless they want to use a technically legal website (via a credit card or depositing money in account) or get in their car and drive to a casino to put up cash (hanging out there all day if they want to get on multiple games), why would they stop using the service the mob provides? Maybe I'm missing something.

[Rocco]

Wiseguy is clearly not from Jersey / NY/ Philly area, he has zero clue Rocco.

Wow, haven't seen the geography card in a while. It's like old times.

When I say bet on credit. I mean when the degenerate gambler(most have shitty credit and have maxed out credit cards that they pulled cash advanced out of) can take a loan and pay the vig every week. Every degenerate gambler I know has maxed out credit cards that they stop paying Missed mortgage payments etc then they turn to their mob connected bookie for the juice loan so they can keep betting. That's how it works. And its obvious that you have never gotten a website username and password from the local bookie to place bets online because based on what you wrote you DONT know how it works

No, I don't gamble but I understand all that. My point is that every player with a mob sports betting operation is essentially betting on credit. However, I don't think your description fits every player that bets with a mob-connected bookie, ie not all of them are down and out, cash strapped players getting buried in vig. If they can't pay, that's where certainly where a loan and making the weekly payment comes into play. But you have others, who make bets of various sizes, who do settle up from week to week with no issues.

So I'm not sure what bettors you were saying the mob is going to lose. Whether they're the type of player you described or otherwise, unless they want to use a technically legal website (via a credit card or depositing money in account) or get in their car and drive to a casino to put up cash (hanging out there all day if they want to get on multiple games), why would they stop using the service the mob provides? Maybe I'm missing something.

I never said every bettor is like that wiseguy. INFACT my point was the opposite. That the majority of bettors placing bets online(myself included) are not down and out and use there credit cards or funds to bet. And they don't bet large either. These make up a good chunk of mob online costa rican websites that people bet into online. And NO the indictment Didn't say most bettors in the 2.2billion Lucchese operation were normal betters like myself betting online. Small bets. I know because I have been betting online for 15yrs. Not everyone is down and out with serious gambling problems. So the mob could LOSE those customers to the Track and casinos in NJ taking bets. That leaves the MOB Sports Book with the guys that need to Bet on Credit with them. The degenerate gamblers who cant pull anymore cash advanced from their credit cards because they are tapped out. THESE are the guys that take juice loans to bet with them. These are also the guys that get stuck working for their sports book to work off their losses and also loose their businesses if they are self employed etc. Legalize sports gambling is going to hurt the mob allot. They will loose allot of action. But will still have their loansharking customers. But the gambling income will drop.

[NickyEyes1]

But for example of that 2.2billions in bets from the 2007 Lucchese bust...a very large chunk of that was your typical gambler betting not so large bets online with no need to bet on credit. They will loose that.

How do you figure that? To not bet on credit means a player would either have to use a credit card or deposit money in an online account, neither of which the standard mob bookmaking operation does as far as I know. And I don't recall any mention of that in the press release, affidavit, or articles about the Operation Heat bust.

Wiseguy is clearly not from Jersey / NY/ Philly area, he has zero clue Rocco.

You know people gamble outside of the tri state right?

[Wiseguy]

Wiseguy is clearly not from Jersey / NY/ Philly area, he has zero clue Rocco.

Wow, haven't seen the geography card in a while. It's like old times.

When I say bet on credit. I mean when the degenerate gambler(most have shitty credit and have maxed out credit cards that they pulled cash advanced out of) can take a loan and pay the vig every week. Every degenerate gambler I know has maxed out credit cards that they stop paying Missed mortgage payments etc then they turn to their mob connected bookie for the juice loan so they can keep betting. That's how it works. And its obvious that you have never gotten a website username and password from the local bookie to place bets online because based on what you wrote you DONT know how it works

No, I don't gamble but I understand all that. My point is that every player with a mob sports betting operation is essentially betting on credit. However, I don't think your description fits every player that bets with a mob-connected bookie, ie not all of them are down and out, cash strapped players getting buried in vig. If they can't pay, that's where certainly where a loan and making the weekly payment comes into play. But you have others, who make bets of various sizes, who do settle up from week to week with no issues.

So I'm not sure what bettors you were saying the mob is going to lose. Whether they're the type of player you described or otherwise, unless they want to use a technically legal website (via a credit card or depositing money in account) or get in their car and drive to a casino to put up cash (hanging out there all day if they want to get on multiple games), why would they stop using the service the mob provides? Maybe I'm missing something.

I never said every bettor is like that wiseguy. INFACT my point was the opposite. That the majority of bettors placing bets online(myself included) are not down and out and use there credit cards or funds to bet. And they don't bet large either. These make up a good chunk of mob online costa rican websites that people bet into online. And NO the indictment Didn't say most bettors in the 2.2billion Lucchese operation were normal betters like myself betting online. Small bets. I know because I have been betting online for 15yrs. Not everyone is down and out with serious gambling problems. So the mob could LOSE those customers to the Track and casinos in NJ taking bets. That leaves the MOB Sports Book with the guys that need to Bet on Credit with them. The degenerate gamblers who cant pull anymore cash advanced from their credit cards because they are tapped out. THESE are the guys that take juice loans to bet with them. These are also the guys that get stuck working for their sports book to work off their losses and also loose their businesses if they are self employed etc. Legalize sports gambling is going to hurt the mob allot. They will loose allot of action. But will still have their loansharking customers. But the gambling income will drop.

I understand that many people choose to play the way you described - players who bet small and use their credit cards or pre-deposited funds to bet. And I imagine some of them will transfer to a mob bookie and bet on credit once their credit cards and online funds are tapped out.

However, I have to assume that most players are not betting with a mob bookie because they have to but because they want to. They don't want to use a traceable credit card with their name on it that could get back to the IRS. They don't want to have to deposit money in an account that may be lost if the website folds. They like being able to bet on multiple games through the week or weekend, all on credit, and settle up once a week - in cash, face to face. These are the gamblers the mob services and the type that I imagine made up most of that $2.2 billion. I think the majority of the ones who prefer to bet as you described, or at a casino book, the mob doesn't have to worry about losing because they never had those to begin with.

I've never denied that legalized sports betting will have some effect on the mob. But I'm not sure it will as big as you seem to be predicting. At least the jury is still out on that and the surest sign will be if we continue to see large mob bookmaking busts in the years to come.

[Rocco]

Wiseguy is clearly not from Jersey / NY/ Philly area, he has zero clue Rocco.

Wow, haven't seen the geography card in a while. It's like old times.

When I say bet on credit. I mean when the degenerate gambler(most have shitty credit and have maxed out credit cards that they pulled cash advanced out of) can take a loan and pay the vig every week. Every degenerate gambler I know has maxed out credit cards that they stop paying Missed mortgage payments etc then they turn to their mob connected bookie for the juice loan so they can keep betting. That's how it works. And its obvious that you have never gotten a website username and password from the local bookie to place bets online because based on what you wrote you DONT know how it works

No, I don't gamble but I understand all that. My point is that every player with a mob sports betting operation is essentially betting on credit. However, I don't think your description fits every player that bets with a mob-connected bookie, ie not all of them are down and out, cash strapped players getting buried in vig. If they can't pay, that's where certainly where a loan and making the weekly payment comes into play. But you have others, who make bets of various sizes, who do settle up from week to week with no issues.

So I'm not sure what bettors you were saying the mob is going to lose. Whether they're the type of player you described or otherwise, unless they want to use a technically legal website (via a credit card or depositing money in account) or get in their car and drive to a casino to put up cash (hanging out there all day if they want to get on multiple games), why would they stop using the service the mob provides? Maybe I'm missing something.

I never said every bettor is like that wiseguy. INFACT my point was the opposite. That the majority of bettors placing bets online(myself included) are not down and out and use there credit cards or funds to bet. And they don't bet large either. These make up a good chunk of mob online costa rican websites that people bet into online. And NO the indictment Didn't say most bettors in the 2.2billion Lucchese operation were normal betters like myself betting online. Small bets. I know because I have been betting online for 15yrs. Not everyone is down and out with serious gambling problems. So the mob could LOSE those customers to the Track and casinos in NJ taking bets. That leaves the MOB Sports Book with the guys that need to Bet on Credit with them. The degenerate gamblers who cant pull anymore cash advanced from their credit cards because they are tapped out. THESE are the guys that take juice loans to bet with them. These are also the guys that get stuck working for their sports book to work off their losses and also loose their businesses if they are self employed etc. Legalize sports gambling is going to hurt the mob allot. They will loose allot of action. But will still have their loansharking customers. But the gambling income will drop.

I understand that many people choose to play the way you described - players who bet small and use their credit cards or pre-deposited funds to bet. And I imagine some of them will transfer to a mob bookie and bet on credit once their credit cards and online funds are tapped out.

However, I have to assume that most players are not betting with a mob bookie because they have to but because they want to. They don't want to use a traceable credit card with their name on it that could get back to the IRS. They don't want to have to deposit money in an account that may be lost if the website folds. They like being able to bet on multiple games through the week or weekend, all on credit, and settle up once a week - in cash, face to face. These are the gamblers the mob services and the type that I imagine made up most of that $2.2 billion. I think the majority of the ones who prefer to bet as you described, or at a casino book, the mob doesn't have to worry about losing because they never had those to begin with.

I've never denied that legalized sports betting will have some effect on the mob. But I'm not sure it will as big as you seem to be predicting. At least the jury is still out on that and the surest sign will be if we continue to see large mob bookmaking busts in the years to come.

You are wrong there. Most people do infact place the bet online because they know that the law doesn't go after the ten thousand bettors placing small time bets every week($35)(which most do and it certainly adds up). And most people really don't want the exposure of meeting with the bookie . The local bookie settles and pays out the larger losses ,takes the larger bets(IRS worries like u said) and pay outs. I would get a link and user name or a phone # to call to get set up on the site. And then I would never see that bookie again unless the site is shutdown do to LE. And then I would have to see him(if knows you friend of friend ) or a friend of his and get a new phone # to call to get set up to the new site the week after the other site is shut down. That's how it works. And that is how they generate so much revenue from these sites. Since they started using these online off shore websites...its pretty much the way its always been. And its been a huge money maker because it has increased the books volume ten fold. Same with the online off shore poker sites though these are pretty much all online and the law doesn't try and track down the 10,000 bettors in the US betting $35 here and there. They go after the guys running sites and the local guys on the street running these. Its pretty much the way its always been That being said. If these casinos come up with online sites where they track the IP address or zipcode of the credit or debt card used to make sure they are within NJ placing the bet legally. That would be pretty devastating to the mob income.

[Wiseguy]

You are wrong there. Most people do infact place the bet online because they know that the law doesn't go after the ten thousand bettors placing small time bets every week($35)(which most do and it certainly adds up). And most people really don't want the exposure of meeting with the bookie . The local bookie settles and pays out the larger losses ,takes the larger bets(IRS worries like u said) and pay outs. I would get a link and user name or a phone # to call to get set up on the site. And then I would never see that bookie again unless the site is shutdown do to LE. And then I would have to see him(if knows you friend of friend ) or a friend of his and get a new phone # to call to get set up to the new site the week after the other site is shut down. That's how it works. And that is how they generate so much revenue from these sites. Since they started using these online off shore websites...its pretty much the way its always been. And its been a huge money maker because it has increased the books volume ten fold. Same with the online off shore poker sites though these are pretty much all online and the law doesn't try and track down the 10,000 bettors in the US betting $35 here and there. They go after the guys running sites and the local guys on the street running these. Its pretty much the way its always been That being said. If these casinos come up with online sites where they track the IP address or zipcode of the credit or debt card used to make sure they are within NJ placing the bet legally. That would be pretty devastating to the mob income.

Below are a couple articles, key points underlined, that explain what I'm talking about. I used the quote function for size.

Anyway, when you boil it down Rocco, you're basically saying part of the mob's gambling operations do include websites where players bet with credit cards or a deposit account?

And, if that's true, the question remains of what percentage does those type of bettors make up for the mob's business. You said the a big portion of the $2.2 billion in the Lucchese case was made up of those type of bettors but what are we basing this on?

And, assuming the casinos provide an online platform to bet on sports through them, won't taxes still be taken out just as if you placed the bet in the casino itself?

Neighborhood Bookies Putting Lines Online
By SAM BORDEN, New York Times
MARCH 29, 2012


The local street bookie — whose illegal business for decades relied on little more than phones, pencils, notebooks and a burly goon to break the occasional leg — has finally been seduced by the modern conveniences of the Internet.

As bettors throughout the United States plunk down millions of dollars on college basketball’s Final Four this weekend, many of the bookies taking their action will turn to a burgeoning corner of the Internet: Web sites that essentially function as a bookie’s version of the financial software Quicken.

The basic setup is simple: Instead of taking a phone call from every hopeful bettor, the bookie directs his clients to a Web site, where bets can be recorded, tracked and totaled. The bookie can then log on and see who owes — or is owed — money in the coming week.

It is organized. It is civilized. It is user-friendly, for both the bookie and the bettor, even though it remains illegal. It is also a drastic departure from the entrenched notion of bookies operating out of basements or back offices, with jumbles of phone-line wires, drop safes and handwritten ledgers.

“There is always going to be a huge market for local bookmakers because they are the ones who let players bet with credit, with money they don’t have to produce,” Steve Budin, a gambling expert who formerly operated an online sports book, said. “People don’t want to give out their credit cards or send money offshore someplace. They like dealing with real people and real cash. These sites just make it a whole lot easier for the bookies serving them.”

Bookies who use the sites pay the companies that operate them a small fee per client, which is why the sites collectively are known as pay-per-head sites. The most significant difference between pay-per-head sites and offshore online sports books — which have been targets of federal law enforcement in recent years — is that pay-per-head sites do not handle any betting money; they simply offer the players a place to record their bets and the bookies a register for organizing them.

Settling up — and the threatening that occasionally goes along with that for those who try to evade paying — is still done locally.

The services offered by the sites, however, are well worth the per-head fee of roughly $20, bookies say. In the so-called old days, the general business setup for a bookie was a split partnership, in which the operator would work in the office taking bets and the money guy was on the streets, handling the finances. Profits were generally split 50-50.

“Honestly? That’s so ‘Goodfellas,’ ” Travis Prescott, an executive at one of the more prominent sites, PerHead.com, said in a telephone interview. “With our setup, everything is streamlined and anyone can run their operation on their own.”

The best per-head sites are run like any large business and attract an increasingly diverse customer base, with demographics far beyond the stereotypical image of the mob-connected bookie. PerHead.com, for example, is based in Costa Rica and has nearly 100 employees working in a gleaming, modern office building. There are six full-time employees focused on I.T., working to ward off hackers and maintain the company’s servers. There is one person dedicated to increasing the company’s search engine optimization, which helps attract bookies of all experience levels, Prescott said.

Prescott said the surge in per-head start-ups began in earnest about three to five years ago — perhaps in response to government crackdowns on traditional online sports books. Although exact figures are unavailable, some estimates have the number of per-head sites operating to be “in the hundreds,” Prescott said.

“Younger bettors are used to ease and quality — they don’t want busy signals or guys who don’t answer their phone,” Budin said. “They want Web sites. They want a number they can trust where someone says, ‘How can I help you?’ if they have to call.”

Thomas, a longtime bookie in the New York metropolitan area who asked that only his first name be used because of the illegal nature of his work, said using a pay-per-head site had revolutionized his business. His customers can place bets at any time. It is a big change from the old days, when many bookies took bets only until 8 or 9 p.m. even though games on the West Coast began later. Those who want to place a complex parlay, or multiple-team wager, can call one of the Web site’s clerks, instead of him, to get an immediate reply on how much that bet will pay out if it wins.

“It’s a huge timesaver,” Thomas said. “I can tweak the lines if I want, I can set minimum and maximum bets for different customers. There are still some older guys who like hearing my voice, but most of my clients just go to the site. They can see it all there.”

Each customer also has a “settle-up number,” which is the amount of money at which he must send payment if he has lost or receive it if he has won. A small-time bettor might have a settle-up number of $500; a big player might not settle up until he hits (or loses) $2,000 or more.

Rick, a higher-stakes sports bettor based in New England, said he was leery of sending his credit card number to traditional online sports books because he had friends who lost money when their online sports books were suddenly shut down. He prefers the per-head setup because it gives him access to a Web site but also allows him to build a trusting relationship with his local bookie; when he won a bet that came with a $20,000 payoff, the bookie still met him at the usual time and paid up.

“It would have been funny if it was in a metal briefcase or something,” Rick said. “But it was nothing like that. He paid me in an interoffice envelope.”

Lawrence Walters, a lawyer who specializes in online gambling, said pay-per-head sites operate in a gray area because of those types of meetings and the required third-party element that is inherent in their operations. It is possible that operators of the sites could be prosecuted by United States officials for facilitating illegal sports betting in this country, but with most of the sites based in Costa Rica and other Central American countries where gambling is legal, extradition would be unlikely, he said.

Given that reality, it is not surprising that the pay-per-head business is thriving. Although images of its old-school roots do persist, the sports gambling industry has embraced technology — bookies included.

“The days of guys writing bets on flash paper so they could burn everything when the cops busted in are long gone,” Matt Mombrea, an industry expert who runs WagerMinds.com, said in an interview. “Honestly, I wouldn’t even be surprised if there are bookies out there who are already taking bets on Twitter.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/30/spor ... tting.html

Gambling a very big winner for the mob
North Jersey.com
February 19, 2006

A week or so before the Super Bowl, "Artie" from Wayne called an 800 number his friend gave him when the football season started. He provided his user name and password.

The woman who answered the phone spoke with a thick Hispanic accent.

"Give me the Steelers 20 times," he said in the gambler`s parlance for a $100 bet.

On the Thursday after the game, Artie "settled up" with the friend, collecting $90 -- his winnings minus a fee -- and bought a few rounds of drinks for his buddies.

Artie made money on Pittsburgh`s victory. So did one of the Mafia families operating sports betting rings in New Jersey, authorities believe.

Win or lose, the mob -- to no one`s surprise -- is one of the biggest winners when it comes to sports wagering in the Garden State.

"It`s the bread and butter of organized crime," said New Jersey State Police Capt. Mark Doyle, who oversees mob investigations for the agency in North Jersey. "They use this money to finance everything else they do, from drug distribution to prostitution to payoffs to unions and elected officials. Bettors have no idea where the money goes."

Scores of people are arrested each year in New Jersey for taking part in million-dollar betting rings connected to the Mafia. Most offenders never see the inside of a prison.

But no sports betting operation has ever received international attention like the one police busted earlier this month.

Authorities say former Philadelphia Flyers star Rick Tocchet and New Jersey State Trooper James Harney ran a sports betting operation that took in more than $1.7 million in bets in a little more than a month leading up to the Super Bowl.

Janet Jones, wife of hockey great Wayne Gretzky, allegedly placed $500,000 in bets with the ring. The names of other famous athletes have popped up as possible bettors as well.

The ring, authorities said, was "affiliated" with the Bruno crime family, which is based in Philadelphia but controls gambling operations throughout South Jersey as well as in parts of Newark.

But how would a ring such as the one the ex-hockey player and the trooper supposedly ran be connected to organized crime?
The state police wouldn`t divulge details of the alleged mob ties. A defense lawyer hired by one of those charged in the case insisted the ring had no ties to organized crime. To date, authorities have said only that some mobsters may have been bettors and that Harney associated with others.

According to mob and sports betting experts, the answer could lie in the unseen world of big-money gaming. Peel back the veneer of any large betting ring and a world of "hedging," "vigs," "tributes," "protection" and "wire rooms" emerges.
Mob families split profits

It`s a world where tens of millions of dollars are pumped into the coffers of the five mob families that control sports betting in New Jersey: the Genovese crime family in Bergen, Passaic, Hudson, Morris and Somerset counties; the Lucchese family in Essex, Morris and Union counties; the DeCavalcante family in Union and Monmouth counties; the Bonanno family in Union, Monmouth, Middlesex and Essex counties; and the Bruno/Scarfo family in South Jersey and the Silver Lake section of Newark.

Here`s how it works:

A bookmaker and several associates grow a stable of regular bettors. They can choose to open their own office -- known as a "wire room" -- and receive incoming bets via an 800 number or through a password-protected Web site.

Such an operation is extremely risky and involves a large, detectable organization, mob investigators say.

In late January, the last of 19 people charged with operating a Genovese sports betting ring from a bar in Garwood pleaded guilty to gambling charges in Monmouth County. They included the street boss of one of the six Genovese crews that operate in the state, Ludwig "Ninny" Bruschi.

The case was one of the rare instances in which gambling rooms operated locally: Bruschi`s crew used a Genovese wire room in New York City.

"We see it less and less," said one veteran detective. "It just makes more sense financially these days to do it outside the country."

Most rings simply outsource the bookmaking.

"You go down to Costa Rica and you see blockhouses with satellites," Doyle said. "And inside they have banks and banks of computers."

In nearly every case, the wire rooms are run by organized-crime families. The services charge bookmakers $20 to $30 a week per bettor. At the end of the week, the leader of the ring either calls the service or visits a secure site to see which of his clients are winners, which owe him money, and how much he owes the mob for use of the service.

The bookmaker pays the fee -- $20,000 to $30,000 a week -- to a contact in New York or New Jersey, mob investigators say.
But there`s more.

If a bookie is "overexposed" on a certain team -- say, 1,000 people have bet the Giants but only 100 have bet their opponent -- the bookie will try to find a colleague who is in an opposite position. The two bookies then split their bets.

The mob does the same thing. A Genovese wire room receiving heavy betting on the Giants will exchange bets with a mob family from the city of their opponent. They combine to "hedge" the bets and "middle" the lines, a process that takes advantage of the difference in spreads in the two cities based on fan bases, investigators say.

"If you have everyone betting the Giants one day, you reach over to another operation that is getting heavy betting on the Steelers and take 20 of their 40 bets," Doyle said.

A no-lose situation

Although a bookmaker may not always win, the mob never loses.

"In order for a bookmaking operation to be successful, they have to hedge off," said Robert Buccino, longtime state mob investigator who now is chief of detectives in Union County. "If it`s New York versus San Fran, New York could be minus 3 here, but go out to Cali and it`s minus 1."

It`s a strategy that police often employ during their investigations, with one officer calling in the favorite and another betting the underdog.

"So we don`t lose the state`s money," Doyle explained.

Authorities haven`t disclosed whether they believe Tocchet and Harney used the services of a wire room. They have accused Tocchet, a millionaire former star athlete, of financing the alleged ring -- a role the mob usually plays in gambling rackets. They have also said that Harney sometimes took bets on his cellphone while patrolling the New Jersey Turnpike.

The federal government estimates that Americans illegally bet up to $200 billion each year, while less than $3 billion is bet legally on sports each year in Las Vegas. And while no numbers are available for only New Jersey, the tri-state area is considered the most active illegal gambling area in the country.

"It`s a big moneymaker," said Bergen County Prosecutor John Molinelli. "It`s dangerous because it`s an unregulated business, where the consequences of not paying can be violent."

How the mob`s gambling interests intersect with the lives of everyday people is evident, he said, in a major sports betting bust made by his office and the state police on Feb. 9. Paying the Genovese family for use of a Costa Rican wire room, the operation took in about $1 million in bets each week on football, hockey, soccer and other sports, Molinelli said.

Charged with operating or participating in the ring are a group of more than 50 people who run the social gamut: They include the manager of the Satin Dolls club in Lodi, the owner of Double D`s Adult Lounge in Morristown, the owner of a long-term parking lot at Newark Liberty International Airport, a South Hackensack computer wholesaler, a Little Falls deli owner and a well-known Elvis Presley impersonator.

"Anytime you can cut off an income stream to organized crime, that`s something we want to do," Molinelli said.

Besides financing other illicit activities, illegal sports betting "feeds the army" of soldiers who do the mob`s dirty work, Buccino said.

It has always "allowed them to make money to live," he said.

"Sports betting should be legal," Buccino said. "Look at what the lottery did to the numbers racket: It killed it. And that used to be such big money [for the mob]."

[Rocco]

You are wrong there. Most people do infact place the bet online because they know that the law doesn't go after the ten thousand bettors placing small time bets every week($35)(which most do and it certainly adds up). And most people really don't want the exposure of meeting with the bookie . The local bookie settles and pays out the larger losses ,takes the larger bets(IRS worries like u said) and pay outs. I would get a link and user name or a phone # to call to get set up on the site. And then I would never see that bookie again unless the site is shutdown do to LE. And then I would have to see him(if knows you friend of friend ) or a friend of his and get a new phone # to call to get set up to the new site the week after the other site is shut down. That's how it works. And that is how they generate so much revenue from these sites. Since they started using these online off shore websites...its pretty much the way its always been. And its been a huge money maker because it has increased the books volume ten fold. Same with the online off shore poker sites though these are pretty much all online and the law doesn't try and track down the 10,000 bettors in the US betting $35 here and there. They go after the guys running sites and the local guys on the street running these. Its pretty much the way its always been That being said. If these casinos come up with online sites where they track the IP address or zipcode of the credit or debt card used to make sure they are within NJ placing the bet legally. That would be pretty devastating to the mob income.

Below are a couple articles, key points underlined, that explain what I'm talking about. I used the quote function for size.

Anyway, when you boil it down Rocco, you're basically saying part of the mob's gambling operations do include websites where players bet with credit cards or a deposit account?

And, if that's true, the question remains of what percentage does those type of bettors make up for the mob's business. You said the a big portion of the $2.2 billion in the Lucchese case was made up of those type of bettors but what are we basing this on?

And, assuming the casinos provide an online platform to bet on sports through them, won't taxes still be taken out just as if you placed the bet in the casino itself?

Neighborhood Bookies Putting Lines Online
By SAM BORDEN, New York Times
MARCH 29, 2012


The local street bookie — whose illegal business for decades relied on little more than phones, pencils, notebooks and a burly goon to break the occasional leg — has finally been seduced by the modern conveniences of the Internet.

As bettors throughout the United States plunk down millions of dollars on college basketball’s Final Four this weekend, many of the bookies taking their action will turn to a burgeoning corner of the Internet: Web sites that essentially function as a bookie’s version of the financial software Quicken.

The basic setup is simple: Instead of taking a phone call from every hopeful bettor, the bookie directs his clients to a Web site, where bets can be recorded, tracked and totaled. The bookie can then log on and see who owes — or is owed — money in the coming week.

It is organized. It is civilized. It is user-friendly, for both the bookie and the bettor, even though it remains illegal. It is also a drastic departure from the entrenched notion of bookies operating out of basements or back offices, with jumbles of phone-line wires, drop safes and handwritten ledgers.

“There is always going to be a huge market for local bookmakers because they are the ones who let players bet with credit, with money they don’t have to produce,” Steve Budin, a gambling expert who formerly operated an online sports book, said. “People don’t want to give out their credit cards or send money offshore someplace. They like dealing with real people and real cash. These sites just make it a whole lot easier for the bookies serving them.”

Bookies who use the sites pay the companies that operate them a small fee per client, which is why the sites collectively are known as pay-per-head sites. The most significant difference between pay-per-head sites and offshore online sports books — which have been targets of federal law enforcement in recent years — is that pay-per-head sites do not handle any betting money; they simply offer the players a place to record their bets and the bookies a register for organizing them.

Settling up — and the threatening that occasionally goes along with that for those who try to evade paying — is still done locally.

The services offered by the sites, however, are well worth the per-head fee of roughly $20, bookies say. In the so-called old days, the general business setup for a bookie was a split partnership, in which the operator would work in the office taking bets and the money guy was on the streets, handling the finances. Profits were generally split 50-50.

“Honestly? That’s so ‘Goodfellas,’ ” Travis Prescott, an executive at one of the more prominent sites, PerHead.com, said in a telephone interview. “With our setup, everything is streamlined and anyone can run their operation on their own.”

The best per-head sites are run like any large business and attract an increasingly diverse customer base, with demographics far beyond the stereotypical image of the mob-connected bookie. PerHead.com, for example, is based in Costa Rica and has nearly 100 employees working in a gleaming, modern office building. There are six full-time employees focused on I.T., working to ward off hackers and maintain the company’s servers. There is one person dedicated to increasing the company’s search engine optimization, which helps attract bookies of all experience levels, Prescott said.

Prescott said the surge in per-head start-ups began in earnest about three to five years ago — perhaps in response to government crackdowns on traditional online sports books. Although exact figures are unavailable, some estimates have the number of per-head sites operating to be “in the hundreds,” Prescott said.

“Younger bettors are used to ease and quality — they don’t want busy signals or guys who don’t answer their phone,” Budin said. “They want Web sites. They want a number they can trust where someone says, ‘How can I help you?’ if they have to call.”

Thomas, a longtime bookie in the New York metropolitan area who asked that only his first name be used because of the illegal nature of his work, said using a pay-per-head site had revolutionized his business. His customers can place bets at any time. It is a big change from the old days, when many bookies took bets only until 8 or 9 p.m. even though games on the West Coast began later. Those who want to place a complex parlay, or multiple-team wager, can call one of the Web site’s clerks, instead of him, to get an immediate reply on how much that bet will pay out if it wins.

“It’s a huge timesaver,” Thomas said. “I can tweak the lines if I want, I can set minimum and maximum bets for different customers. There are still some older guys who like hearing my voice, but most of my clients just go to the site. They can see it all there.”

Each customer also has a “settle-up number,” which is the amount of money at which he must send payment if he has lost or receive it if he has won. A small-time bettor might have a settle-up number of $500; a big player might not settle up until he hits (or loses) $2,000 or more.

Rick, a higher-stakes sports bettor based in New England, said he was leery of sending his credit card number to traditional online sports books because he had friends who lost money when their online sports books were suddenly shut down. He prefers the per-head setup because it gives him access to a Web site but also allows him to build a trusting relationship with his local bookie; when he won a bet that came with a $20,000 payoff, the bookie still met him at the usual time and paid up.

“It would have been funny if it was in a metal briefcase or something,” Rick said. “But it was nothing like that. He paid me in an interoffice envelope.”

Lawrence Walters, a lawyer who specializes in online gambling, said pay-per-head sites operate in a gray area because of those types of meetings and the required third-party element that is inherent in their operations. It is possible that operators of the sites could be prosecuted by United States officials for facilitating illegal sports betting in this country, but with most of the sites based in Costa Rica and other Central American countries where gambling is legal, extradition would be unlikely, he said.

Given that reality, it is not surprising that the pay-per-head business is thriving. Although images of its old-school roots do persist, the sports gambling industry has embraced technology — bookies included.

“The days of guys writing bets on flash paper so they could burn everything when the cops busted in are long gone,” Matt Mombrea, an industry expert who runs WagerMinds.com, said in an interview. “Honestly, I wouldn’t even be surprised if there are bookies out there who are already taking bets on Twitter.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/30/spor ... tting.html

Gambling a very big winner for the mob
North Jersey.com
February 19, 2006

A week or so before the Super Bowl, "Artie" from Wayne called an 800 number his friend gave him when the football season started. He provided his user name and password.

The woman who answered the phone spoke with a thick Hispanic accent.

"Give me the Steelers 20 times," he said in the gambler`s parlance for a $100 bet.

On the Thursday after the game, Artie "settled up" with the friend, collecting $90 -- his winnings minus a fee -- and bought a few rounds of drinks for his buddies.

Artie made money on Pittsburgh`s victory. So did one of the Mafia families operating sports betting rings in New Jersey, authorities believe.

Win or lose, the mob -- to no one`s surprise -- is one of the biggest winners when it comes to sports wagering in the Garden State.

"It`s the bread and butter of organized crime," said New Jersey State Police Capt. Mark Doyle, who oversees mob investigations for the agency in North Jersey. "They use this money to finance everything else they do, from drug distribution to prostitution to payoffs to unions and elected officials. Bettors have no idea where the money goes."

Scores of people are arrested each year in New Jersey for taking part in million-dollar betting rings connected to the Mafia. Most offenders never see the inside of a prison.

But no sports betting operation has ever received international attention like the one police busted earlier this month.

Authorities say former Philadelphia Flyers star Rick Tocchet and New Jersey State Trooper James Harney ran a sports betting operation that took in more than $1.7 million in bets in a little more than a month leading up to the Super Bowl.

Janet Jones, wife of hockey great Wayne Gretzky, allegedly placed $500,000 in bets with the ring. The names of other famous athletes have popped up as possible bettors as well.

The ring, authorities said, was "affiliated" with the Bruno crime family, which is based in Philadelphia but controls gambling operations throughout South Jersey as well as in parts of Newark.

But how would a ring such as the one the ex-hockey player and the trooper supposedly ran be connected to organized crime?
The state police wouldn`t divulge details of the alleged mob ties. A defense lawyer hired by one of those charged in the case insisted the ring had no ties to organized crime. To date, authorities have said only that some mobsters may have been bettors and that Harney associated with others.

According to mob and sports betting experts, the answer could lie in the unseen world of big-money gaming. Peel back the veneer of any large betting ring and a world of "hedging," "vigs," "tributes," "protection" and "wire rooms" emerges.
Mob families split profits

It`s a world where tens of millions of dollars are pumped into the coffers of the five mob families that control sports betting in New Jersey: the Genovese crime family in Bergen, Passaic, Hudson, Morris and Somerset counties; the Lucchese family in Essex, Morris and Union counties; the DeCavalcante family in Union and Monmouth counties; the Bonanno family in Union, Monmouth, Middlesex and Essex counties; and the Bruno/Scarfo family in South Jersey and the Silver Lake section of Newark.

Here`s how it works:

A bookmaker and several associates grow a stable of regular bettors. They can choose to open their own office -- known as a "wire room" -- and receive incoming bets via an 800 number or through a password-protected Web site.

Such an operation is extremely risky and involves a large, detectable organization, mob investigators say.

In late January, the last of 19 people charged with operating a Genovese sports betting ring from a bar in Garwood pleaded guilty to gambling charges in Monmouth County. They included the street boss of one of the six Genovese crews that operate in the state, Ludwig "Ninny" Bruschi.

The case was one of the rare instances in which gambling rooms operated locally: Bruschi`s crew used a Genovese wire room in New York City.

"We see it less and less," said one veteran detective. "It just makes more sense financially these days to do it outside the country."

Most rings simply outsource the bookmaking.

"You go down to Costa Rica and you see blockhouses with satellites," Doyle said. "And inside they have banks and banks of computers."

In nearly every case, the wire rooms are run by organized-crime families. The services charge bookmakers $20 to $30 a week per bettor. At the end of the week, the leader of the ring either calls the service or visits a secure site to see which of his clients are winners, which owe him money, and how much he owes the mob for use of the service.

The bookmaker pays the fee -- $20,000 to $30,000 a week -- to a contact in New York or New Jersey, mob investigators say.
But there`s more.

If a bookie is "overexposed" on a certain team -- say, 1,000 people have bet the Giants but only 100 have bet their opponent -- the bookie will try to find a colleague who is in an opposite position. The two bookies then split their bets.

The mob does the same thing. A Genovese wire room receiving heavy betting on the Giants will exchange bets with a mob family from the city of their opponent. They combine to "hedge" the bets and "middle" the lines, a process that takes advantage of the difference in spreads in the two cities based on fan bases, investigators say.

"If you have everyone betting the Giants one day, you reach over to another operation that is getting heavy betting on the Steelers and take 20 of their 40 bets," Doyle said.

A no-lose situation

Although a bookmaker may not always win, the mob never loses.

"In order for a bookmaking operation to be successful, they have to hedge off," said Robert Buccino, longtime state mob investigator who now is chief of detectives in Union County. "If it`s New York versus San Fran, New York could be minus 3 here, but go out to Cali and it`s minus 1."

It`s a strategy that police often employ during their investigations, with one officer calling in the favorite and another betting the underdog.

"So we don`t lose the state`s money," Doyle explained.

Authorities haven`t disclosed whether they believe Tocchet and Harney used the services of a wire room. They have accused Tocchet, a millionaire former star athlete, of financing the alleged ring -- a role the mob usually plays in gambling rackets. They have also said that Harney sometimes took bets on his cellphone while patrolling the New Jersey Turnpike.

The federal government estimates that Americans illegally bet up to $200 billion each year, while less than $3 billion is bet legally on sports each year in Las Vegas. And while no numbers are available for only New Jersey, the tri-state area is considered the most active illegal gambling area in the country.

"It`s a big moneymaker," said Bergen County Prosecutor John Molinelli. "It`s dangerous because it`s an unregulated business, where the consequences of not paying can be violent."

How the mob`s gambling interests intersect with the lives of everyday people is evident, he said, in a major sports betting bust made by his office and the state police on Feb. 9. Paying the Genovese family for use of a Costa Rican wire room, the operation took in about $1 million in bets each week on football, hockey, soccer and other sports, Molinelli said.

Charged with operating or participating in the ring are a group of more than 50 people who run the social gamut: They include the manager of the Satin Dolls club in Lodi, the owner of Double D`s Adult Lounge in Morristown, the owner of a long-term parking lot at Newark Liberty International Airport, a South Hackensack computer wholesaler, a Little Falls deli owner and a well-known Elvis Presley impersonator.

"Anytime you can cut off an income stream to organized crime, that`s something we want to do," Molinelli said.

Besides financing other illicit activities, illegal sports betting "feeds the army" of soldiers who do the mob`s dirty work, Buccino said.

It has always "allowed them to make money to live," he said.

"Sports betting should be legal," Buccino said. "Look at what the lottery did to the numbers racket: It killed it. And that used to be such big money [for the mob]."

Most of me and my friends bet small.. On one game I will place may 3 small bets $20 on the spread. $10-20 on two other types of bets. And I transfer or charge the money per game. Its extremely rare where I will leave even $100 in the account because as you stated what if the site is shut down? Your articles says that a small time bet is $500. lol That is completely false. The way me and my friends bet ...that's a large bet ! Remember that article is LE influenced to demonizing gambling. The only people I know that are meeting up with bookies are people making $500 bets and up...BECAUSE they are large bets. I know people that bet $1200 on a game. And their bets on that one game total $1200 as they bet several different ways on that one game. They meet up at the local bar once a week with their bookie. Or the bookie comes right to their corporate office if they bet heavy are on a steady customer. If you take the 2.2billion book over 15months(and I think the feds really stretched that number) I would bet money($15 ) that a good chunk of those bets were small time under a couple hundred dollars. The great thing about these Website is that you can really bet on almost ANY aspect of the game. Not just the spread. That's why so many people make small time bets that might total $80-100 on that one game. When I worked in NYC at an unnamed company . About 50% of the people playing the office Football Pool were betting on games on these off shore websites. Not one of them probably ever even saw a bookie once. Football parties you got 12 guys making small bets onlines. Betting on all aspects of the game. Small bets $15 here . $25 here. Nothing crazy. When the mob started doing these websites It really increased there income when it comes sports gambling. So if you got 1200 guys betting a total $80 twice a week that's $192k in wagers for the week. Then add in all the degenerate gamblers that will gamble away their own mother. Its adds up.
And again I am really unsure of the point you are trying to make by posting all these articles. ??

Is your point that every better must meet with a bookie because they are afraid of the IRS? Or they are afraid of losing $100 online so they take the risk of meeting with a bookie who could be under investigation? Is that you point here? If so ...its not true. and these articles are false when they say a small time bet is $500. That's a big bet for a normal better. So that statement is false. I might bet $100 on the super bowl or play off game. And that's a big bet for me and guys I know who bet for FUN to bet a total of $100 on one game. I get every football season and I haven't had to physically see a bookie in 10yrs ! And what if by some long shot that the LE takes down the site and decides to spend the man hours tracking down every 1200 guys who made $80 bets per game over a 3 month period...6 games that is 480 in bets. say I won a total of $300 in those bets. Am I really gonna sweat paying the IRS on $300 in winnings ? get the fuck ata here !

[Rocco]

I agree that the mob will still have the degenerate gambler who are in the hole and need to bet on credit thru a loan. But these are guys that don't have the cash or cant get a credit card because they already maxed theirs out gambling. Yes the mob will have these guys. But for the thousands of normal bettors that bet for fun like me...if there is a website I can bet into legally in NJ ...hell yes I am going to do that over the illegal website. Why not? What do I have to gain by betting illegally? The mob surely fee the pain from legal sport betting but it wont put them out of business completely. I think they def end up giving juice loans to the degenerate gamblers so they can go bet legally. I have known plenty of guys over the years with serious gambling problems that DO NOT bet on sport but only in the casino's. Mob guys extend credit to these guys as well. So I think it will hurt their sports book but probably not their Loan sharking rackets. Mob still has plenty of floating mini casino's in north jersey with a 40k bank for loans. They still exist even though you have a Casino in Bethlehem PA and Atlantic City. Guys still go to these and play poker on credit. But prior to AC opening in the 1970s these floating casino were much much bigger. What happened was people that do not have serious gambling problems stopped going to them. They went to a legal casino because they do not need to bet on credit thru a mob loan. I think the same thing will happen with sports gambling being legalized if they can get a website up legally. The website if key. People like to bet on sports from their couches. They do not want to drive to a casino to do it. that is key

[Snakes]

If the "local" websites charge more juice than the offshore ones to cover for the taxes levied on legalized gambling, it may cause a lot of people to stay on the offshore sites.

[Wiseguy]

Most of me and my friends bet small.. On one game I will place may 3 small bets $20 on the spread. $10-20 on two other types of bets. And I transfer or charge the money per game. Its extremely rare where I will leave even $100 in the account because as you stated what if the site is shut down? Your articles says that a small time bet is $500. lol That is completely false. The way me and my friends bet ...that's a large bet ! Remember that article is LE influenced to demonizing gambling. The only people I know that are meeting up with bookies are people making $500 bets and up...BECAUSE they are large bets. I know people that bet $1200 on a game. And their bets on that one game total $1200 as they bet several different ways on that one game. They meet up at the local bar once a week with their bookie. Or the bookie comes right to their corporate office if they bet heavy are on a steady customer. If you take the 2.2billion book over 15months(and I think the feds really stretched that number) I would bet money($15 ) that a good chunk of those bets were small time under a couple hundred dollars. The great thing about these Website is that you can really bet on almost ANY aspect of the game. Not just the spread. That's why so many people make small time bets that might total $80-100 on that one game. When I worked in NYC at an unnamed company . About 50% of the people playing the office Football Pool were betting on games on these off shore websites. Not one of them probably ever even saw a bookie once. Football parties you got 12 guys making small bets onlines. Betting on all aspects of the game. Small bets $15 here . $25 here. Nothing crazy. When the mob started doing these websites It really increased there income when it comes sports gambling. So if you got 1200 guys betting a total $80 twice a week that's $192k in wagers for the week. Then add in all the degenerate gamblers that will gamble away their own mother. Its adds up.
And again I am really unsure of the point you are trying to make by posting all these articles. ??

Is your point that every better must meet with a bookie because they are afraid of the IRS? Or they are afraid of losing $100 online so they take the risk of meeting with a bookie who could be under investigation? Is that you point here? If so ...its not true. and these articles are false when they say a small time bet is $500. That's a big bet for a normal better. So that statement is false. I might bet $100 on the super bowl or play off game. And that's a big bet for me and guys I know who bet for FUN to bet a total of $100 on one game. I get every football season and I haven't had to physically see a bookie in 10yrs ! And what if by some long shot that the LE takes down the site and decides to spend the man hours tracking down every 1200 guys who made $80 bets per game over a 3 month period...6 games that is 480 in bets. say I won a total of $300 in those bets. Am I really gonna sweat paying the IRS on $300 in winnings ? get the fuck ata here !

The article said $500 could be a settle up number for smaller bettors. Not that they're making $500 bets.

I agree that the mob will still have the degenerate gambler who are in the hole and need to bet on credit thru a loan. But these are guys that don't have the cash or cant get a credit card because they already maxed theirs out gambling. Yes the mob will have these guys. But for the thousands of normal bettors that bet for fun like me...if there is a website I can bet into legally in NJ ...hell yes I am going to do that over the illegal website. Why not? What do I have to gain by betting illegally? The mob surely fee the pain from legal sport betting but it wont put them out of business completely. I think they def end up giving juice loans to the degenerate gamblers so they can go bet legally. I have known plenty of guys over the years with serious gambling problems that DO NOT bet on sport but only in the casino's. Mob guys extend credit to these guys as well. So I think it will hurt their sports book but probably not their Loan sharking rackets. Mob still has plenty of floating mini casino's in north jersey with a 40k bank for loans. They still exist even though you have a Casino in Bethlehem PA and Atlantic City. Guys still go to these and play poker on credit. But prior to AC opening in the 1970s these floating casino were much much bigger. What happened was people that do not have serious gambling problems stopped going to them. They went to a legal casino because they do not need to bet on credit thru a mob loan. I think the same thing will happen with sports gambling being legalized if they can get a website up legally. The website if key. People like to bet on sports from their couches. They do not want to drive to a casino to do it. that is key

If New Jersey bettors want to bet legally from their couch, whenever that becomes available, it will be a 13% tax on their winnings.

[Pete]

The local books I know, the people place the bets through the site with no card, so all bets are taken on credit and settling up is always done in cash. They still collect through classic extortionate means using threats and/or violence when necessary. That industry hasn’t changed that much. this is how it is here, Chicago area, with the books I am aware of, don’t know what they do anywhere else

[SonnyBlackstein]

If people quote, can they quote relevant parts rather than whole posts.

Tough to read is all.

Cheers

[TJ]

Pete, same everywhere bud

[joeycigars]

If the "local" websites charge more juice than the offshore ones to cover for the taxes levied on legalized gambling, it may cause a lot of people to stay on the offshore sites.

Snakes got it right the mob will survive because of taxes bottom line ... if you win $1000 In New Jersey you get $780 back after the 13% Vig and 8.5 % State tax if its more then $5000 add another 28% Fed tax , you cant win with Vigs like that over time never ever numbers dont lie

If you bet ten games 100 each you have to win almost 70% of the time to get ahead any gambler knows this is impossible