Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.

[aleksandrored]

"Al Capone's Beer Wars" by John Binder is another.

I didn't know this one was out yet. You recommend it?

I recommend it and have a copy.

As for books on Lucky Luciano, I recommend Tim Newark's, Chris Cipollini, William Donati and Ellen Poulson. I'd also say that the articles Tom Hunt and myself wrote in Informer Journal are pretty decent: http://informer-journal.blogspot.com/20 ... ament.html

The books you recommend are these?:
"Boardwalk Gangster: The Real Lucky Luciano"
"Lucky Luciano: Mysterious Tales of a Gangland Legend"
"Lucky Luciano: The Rise and Fall of a Mob Boss"
"The Case Against Lucky Luciano: New York's Most Sensational Vice Trial"

Your articles look very good, I intend to buy them soon.

Ps: you also recommend Meyer Lansky: The Thinking Man’s Gangster?

[Antiliar]

I've read Gary Potter, and he seems to be an extremist on the other side. While the Alien Conspiracy Theory (ACT) as originally formulated by the Bureau of Narcotics has been discredited, the updated version that built on Nicola Gentile and Joseph Valachi (and later by Buscetta, Bonanno, etc., etc.) has proven true. I also don't think the FBI inflated anything about Galante, but reflected its understanding according to informants. Vincent Teresa reported that he was a scary and powerful mobster who was destined to take over the Bonanno Family when he got out, and that's exactly what he did. According to Phil Rastelli and the Commission, Galante was not the actual boss, but to many capos and soldiers within the Bonanno Family he was. So Potter is making straw man claims against the FBI, perhaps to support him discredited extreme response to the original version of the ACT.

Regarding the Lansky book, it's a reprint of the 1991 book by Robert Lacey. Yes, I recommend it.

[Angelo Santino]

In 2001-ish I had an FBI memo stating Galante was labeled Boss for clarity purposes, in other words they were quite unsure... This was before Massino-Vitale et al. so I thought nothing of it at the time. Just goes to show... Also, Fratianno in his first book with Demaris mentioned the false newspaper narrative of Galante and Dellacroce in a cold war over who succeeds Gambino as Boss of Boss. He went on to refer to the Bonannos as the Nicholas Marangello Family.

The Alien Conspiracy Theory, as I understand it to be, was the theory that the Mafia was an alien presence infiltrating America with its headquarters in Sicily. Even though the FBN might have known that was overstated, there were still books being published in the 50's and 60's that promoted that narrative (usually in the same books that claim Meyer Lansky was one of the few non-Itals made.)

But what's at the opposite end? The alternative theory seems to be that the American Mafia was a fusion of old-world values combined with the dark side of American Capitalism. "There was a time when the Italians didn't have many choices" argument.

The truth is somewhere in the middle. Sicilians imported the Mafia but after taking hold in this country it became an American phenomenon. And arguably the Depression later on might have served as a catalyst for increased criminal affiliation.

[B.]

The Alien Conspiracy Theory, as I understand it to be, was the theory that the Mafia was an alien presence infiltrating America with its headquarters in Sicily. Even though the FBN might have known that was overstated, there were still books being published in the 50's and 60's that promoted that narrative (usually in the same books that claim Meyer Lansky was one of the few non-Itals made.)

One of the Philly informants (possibly one of the Calabrian Lagana brothers) also more or less believed this. He claimed that there was a top boss in Sicily who was consulted on important decisions:

- In September 1958, the informant claimed that Albert Anastasia was believed to have killed around 50 people during his life, which is one reason there had been "extreme bitterness" against him. Because of this, he says Anastasia had been "marked for death" twice, but Anastasia was close to a "powerful leader in Sicily who was believed to have international control". This Sicilian thought that Anastasia "performed too many good deeds" to be killed. Later more of Anastasia's "misdeeds" were presented to this Sicilian and he ultimately approved Anastasia's murder.

[Angelo Santino]

The Alien Conspiracy Theory, as I understand it to be, was the theory that the Mafia was an alien presence infiltrating America with its headquarters in Sicily. Even though the FBN might have known that was overstated, there were still books being published in the 50's and 60's that promoted that narrative (usually in the same books that claim Meyer Lansky was one of the few non-Itals made.)

One of the Philly informants (possibly one of the Calabrian Lagana brothers) also more or less believed this. He claimed that there was a top boss in Sicily who was consulted on important decisions:

- In September 1958, the informant claimed that Albert Anastasia was believed to have killed around 50 people during his life, which is one reason there had been "extreme bitterness" against him. Because of this, he says Anastasia had been "marked for death" twice, but Anastasia was close to a "powerful leader in Sicily who was believed to have international control". This Sicilian thought that Anastasia "performed too many good deeds" to be killed. Later more of Anastasia's "misdeeds" were presented to this Sicilian and he ultimately approved Anastasia's murder.

It would be interesting to compile a list of crazy or odd things that informants have claimed. Little quirks such as Cafaro using 'amico nostra' claiming it has its origins in Spain, to the Bonanno informant who thought Cosa Nostra was Italian for "Friends", stuff like that. It's a reminder that these guys were criminals first, opportunists second and history would fall somewhere in the back of their top 20. And they have different levels of interest. Seems DiLeonardo is interested in the background, you can tell he's read up on it. Whereas other informants are just "this is what I seen" and they really don't see any reason to dive any deeper than that.

The origins of the Alien Conspiracy Theory do have some credences. The Mafia was a foreign entity that, while not set out to oppose the US government, were inclined to ignore it. The connections between Palermo and New York City, especially before immigration reform in the 1930s, was entrenched. New York City had a direct conduit to sought after Italian goods: wine and citrus was a thriving industry which supported merchants, salesmen, wine couriers, distributors. Most of your Palermo Mafiosi (Gambinos) traditionally been store owners linked to wine and citrus. The Palermo Mafia of this era cannot be understand without taking this into consideration. And given their idea of legality and business ethics, had RICO or some similar law been around during those days, there'd be a international criminal racketeering case revolving lemons and wine. Arguably this paved the way for many Gambino members to became community businessmen which only further added to their influence in NY. And maybe even played a role in why a second Palermitan Family was formed in NYC, but again that's from me and put that under a fat maybe as I can furnish no evidence at this point.

But on the flipside, by 1910 you have American born Italo youth starting to hang around these guy's stores and saloons and eventually they would find their places in the organization in the decades to come. Lacking those international connections, crime became localized or at least nationalized. I always considered Anastasia, while Italo-born, to be more of an American story, similar to Luciano et al his underworld origins began in NY and not Italy.

[Villain]

Government informer Mike Corbitt claimed that Hyman "Red" Larner was the "real power" behind the Chicago Outfit for quite a long time

It seems that sometimes these so-called informers were more than amazed from the situations they witnessed by working closely with these high level criminals, thus creating an illusional opinion that these fellas were some sort of "criminal gods" or whatever and controlled the world.

Although I have to be honest that when Corbitt decided to testify against Larner and so in 1997 the FBI wanted to make a move against the old gangster but suddenly the State Department had intervened and stopped the whole investigation whitch is quite unusual situation for one high level Outfit associate or non-Italian member.

And so in an alleged act of revenge, Corbitt began writing down his own, allegedly true memoirs, and decided to publish a book with the help of Sam Giancana Jr., the author of a previous written book about his uncle’s criminal life called “Double Cross”,while Corbitt’s book had a similar name which was called “Double Deal” . So theres no doubt that theres "some" fiction in the book

[Snakes]

The Alien Conspiracy Theory, as I understand it to be, was the theory that the Mafia was an alien presence infiltrating America with its headquarters in Sicily. Even though the FBN might have known that was overstated, there were still books being published in the 50's and 60's that promoted that narrative (usually in the same books that claim Meyer Lansky was one of the few non-Itals made.)

One of the Philly informants (possibly one of the Calabrian Lagana brothers) also more or less believed this. He claimed that there was a top boss in Sicily who was consulted on important decisions:

- In September 1958, the informant claimed that Albert Anastasia was believed to have killed around 50 people during his life, which is one reason there had been "extreme bitterness" against him. Because of this, he says Anastasia had been "marked for death" twice, but Anastasia was close to a "powerful leader in Sicily who was believed to have international control". This Sicilian thought that Anastasia "performed too many good deeds" to be killed. Later more of Anastasia's "misdeeds" were presented to this Sicilian and he ultimately approved Anastasia's murder.

It would be interesting to compile a list of crazy or odd things that informants have claimed. Little quirks such as Cafaro using 'amico nostra' claiming it has its origins in Spain, to the Bonanno informant who thought Cosa Nostra was Italian for "Friends", stuff like that. It's a reminder that these guys were criminals first, opportunists second and history would fall somewhere in the back of their top 20. And they have different levels of interest. Seems DiLeonardo is interested in the background, you can tell he's read up on it. Whereas other informants are just "this is what I seen" and they really don't see any reason to dive any deeper than that.

While we are at it, Mary Ferrell is a great resource and all but people tend to forget that the amount of information coming to us through those files is limited. There are literally thousands upon thousands of pages of files which have never, and will never, be published with troves upon troves of information. Sometimes, the MF info may be easily acknowledged as coming from a reliable source but it's difficult to determine whether a piece of information is just bad intel that happened to slip through the cracks and get put out on a public website, as opposed to better pieces of intel waiting to be discovered. It's all part of the research process, though, and being able to discern what is and isn't junk is a big part of that.

[Snakes]

And Villain, I found Corbitt's book to be much more reliable than "Double Deal," even if he did exaggerate a great amount.

[Villain]

And Villain, I found Corbitt's book to be much more reliable than "Double Deal," even if he did exaggerate a great amount.

You mean "Double Cross" (Giancanas book), and yeah somtimes Corbitt goes into details which are hard to invent

[Snakes]

And Villain, I found Corbitt's book to be much more reliable than "Double Deal," even if he did exaggerate a great amount.

You mean "Double Cross" (Giancanas book), and yeah somtimes Corbitt goes into details which are hard to invent

Woops, yeah, that's what I meant.

[Villain]

And Villain, I found Corbitt's book to be much more reliable than "Double Deal," even if he did exaggerate a great amount.

You mean "Double Cross" (Giancanas book), and yeah somtimes Corbitt goes into details which are hard to invent

Woops, yeah, that's what I meant.

Its ok, what just happened to you was the whole point of both authors lol

[Antiliar]

I think informants, especially low-level ones and associates, are like the analogy of the blind men and the elephant. One blind man can only describe the tail, another the ears, another the huge legs, another the trunk, etc. The CI's have limited experience and limited contacts, which results in information that makes their mob contacts more powerful than they really were.

[Angelo Santino]

I think informants, especially low-level ones and associates, are like the analogy of the blind men and the elephant. One blind man can only describe the tail, another the ears, another the huge legs, another the trunk, etc. The CI's have limited experience and limited contacts, which results in information that makes their mob contacts more powerful than they really were.

Absolutely. And while certain informants' information on the hierarchy can be disproven, there's no taking away that everyone the informant named existed and even introduced unheard names. I think it provides an insight into how things appeared from his perspective and there's things to be gained from that.

Over the years, Carlo Gambino and his Family have been laced with overexaggerations regarding size and power. Everything from informants claiming 1000 members, 75 capos to informants in Sicily labeling him "the American King" who controlled the entire American Mafia singlehandedly, even the Montreal crew answered to Gambino. Informants like Joe Cantaluppo stated amazement at the size of his family... All this points a picture at how things were perceived at the time and era. Over time perceptions become reality and history defaults into fable and things get simplified and overexaggerated. I can argue his legal issues, Joe Bonanno's summary of the Lucchese-Gambino relationship as "making love," if that was so then Lucchese certainly would have Topped until his death. Gambino never outshadowed Lucchese so his top status was more like 10 years than 20. But all these arguments aside, if the underworld believed these misconceptions about his size and power, that would have translated into political influence. It's probably why Gambino had the clout to tell Buscetta (was it him?) not to involve himself in American affairs. Power perceived is power achieved.

[aleksandrored]

The more I read here I see that many things I knew were lies and myths kkkkk, if I'm talking about bullshit apologies, but Henry Hill, after the fame of Godfellas, I find it strange that he is always adding more drama to books and documentaries, so I think The most faithful version of this is Wiseguy's 1986 book because it was made in a neutral era.

[B.]

It would be interesting to compile a list of crazy or odd things that informants have claimed. Little quirks such as Cafaro using 'amico nostra' claiming it has its origins in Spain, to the Bonanno informant who thought Cosa Nostra was Italian for "Friends", stuff like that. It's a reminder that these guys were criminals first, opportunists second and history would fall somewhere in the back of their top 20. And they have different levels of interest. Seems DiLeonardo is interested in the background, you can tell he's read up on it. Whereas other informants are just "this is what I seen" and they really don't see any reason to dive any deeper than that.

The origins of the Alien Conspiracy Theory do have some credences. The Mafia was a foreign entity that, while not set out to oppose the US government, were inclined to ignore it. The connections between Palermo and New York City, especially before immigration reform in the 1930s, was entrenched. New York City had a direct conduit to sought after Italian goods: wine and citrus was a thriving industry which supported merchants, salesmen, wine couriers, distributors. Most of your Palermo Mafiosi (Gambinos) traditionally been store owners linked to wine and citrus. The Palermo Mafia of this era cannot be understand without taking this into consideration. And given their idea of legality and business ethics, had RICO or some similar law been around during those days, there'd be a international criminal racketeering case revolving lemons and wine. Arguably this paved the way for many Gambino members to became community businessmen which only further added to their influence in NY. And maybe even played a role in why a second Palermitan Family was formed in NYC, but again that's from me and put that under a fat maybe as I can furnish no evidence at this point.

But on the flipside, by 1910 you have American born Italo youth starting to hang around these guy's stores and saloons and eventually they would find their places in the organization in the decades to come. Lacking those international connections, crime became localized or at least nationalized. I always considered Anastasia, while Italo-born, to be more of an American story, similar to Luciano et al his underworld origins began in NY and not Italy.

100% man.

I do have questions about some of the early back-and-forth. Like Morello, Lupo, etc. going back to Sicily in the early 1920s to try and have their death sentences removed. You could interpret that to mean there was some authority (be it an individual or group) who could influence decisions back in the US, but it's more likely they were reaching out to allies who could advocate for them politically, like we've heard about in other early families in the US, where a boss in one city might pass a death sentence on a member, only for a member from another city to reach out and ask for clemency. I imagine that's what was going on with Morello, etc. rather than reaching out to some kind of international powerhouse who could influence decisions on both sides of the water.

Like you said, though, where there is smoke there's at least some fire. The Sicilian and American mafia was the same organization at that point and they didn't make any distinction. Bosses in Sicily did have more influence in the US in early days, but it probably wasn't much different from a boss in one US city having influence on activities in another city... they could write their letters, recommend members, ask/give favors, use their political influence, etc. but they couldn't make a decision unless they were the boss of bosses like Morello or D'Aquila, and even then, they seem to have done that in an underhanded way (think of D'Aquila and Masseria's spies and shadowy manipulation of other cities).

Something that got me thinking... Jimmy Fratianno says in his book that Jack Dragna was made around 1914, which is when Dragna came back from Sicily after spending years there. If Fratianno's info is correct, either Dragna was made by the Morello family after he returned, or he was made in Sicily before he left. I've wondered if some of these guys who came to the US and went back to Sicily were made back there before they came to the US. Since we're sort of talking about myths here, there are similar stories about Carlo Gambino and others being made and "sent" to the US. DiLeonardo even said in one interview that his great-grandfather and grandfather were sent to the US by Cascioferro. It's probably, as you said, a little bit of one, another bit of the other, but definitely not a widespread alien conspiracy.