Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.
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- Angelo Santino
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Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.
My first introduction into all of this shit was back in 2001 when I read Mafia Dynasty by John H. Davis. Back then my biggest takeaway was that the La Cosa Nostra had a lineage of leaders, it wasn't like AA gangs that form, break and splinter. So that got me started on tracing every boss back to 1931 because you know, that's when Luciano formed the five Families. This took me to The Last Testament of Luciano which left, young and impressionable I, with a better understanding of what he called the "Unione Siciliano" in the book, I could only ponder that he used this term to avoid breaking omerta by revealing the real name (*whispers "Cosa Nostraaaa.)
Eventually this brought me online where I encountered Mafia researchers haulking items on eBay which introduced me to the forums. My biggest "enlightenment" was when I first tried to argue that Luciano seems innocent in his book's narrative and bla bla bla. Remember, I was young and naive and unknowingly walked into the St Valentine's Day Massacre staccato of rebuttals:
1) I can't determine Luciano's innocence from a book and argue that against people who've read the court transcripts and Anslinger files.
2) Unione Siciliano in NY? Laughable
3) Mob bosses existed before 1931 so...
4) Last Testament was a fraud.
You get the picture.
I got my ass handed to me and, well it inspired to know what the fuck I was talking about when debating a subject. More than that, they introduced new ways of viewing information. But looking back then to what I know know, some preconceived notions that went to the wayside as I learned more:
1) The LCN began as an extension of the Sicilian mafia, not a copycat.
2) Luciano didn't form anything, families, ceremonies, ranks, hierarchies, commissions all predate him by decades.
3) There was really never a "Golden Age" just like there was never a "Toughest Mobster." Certain eras contained different advantages and obstacles. Many would consider the 20's or the 50's to be Golden eras but the 20's were a violent and turbulent time across America and the 50's was when mafiosi began being bugged without any inkling that such technology existed. (Luckily RICO and its predicates weren't around then or Appalachin attendees probably could have gotten serious time.
4) The older guys were "better" (whatever word or description to label them superior.) The primary difference is that law enforcement has caught up and the way informants were utilized have changed. Before the FBI and Top Hoodlum Program there was nothing to counter it. It's like the opioid epidemic and the lack of resources addressing it today, going through the legal procedures to actually combat it is more difficult than actually combatting it. It took law enforcement decades to catch up.
5) Blue collar criminality. I'd read Capeci's forum the last 10 years and noticed he began referring to associates as "mob wannabes" for the stupid shit they did to get featured on his column written by his students. I don't find the dumb shit really any different than any other era. Even when economic opportunities were abundant, many of these guys could not help but be broke and forced into desperate situations, even bosses.
I used to have a buddy who used to post and, based on what he said, became disillusioned with how unorganized organized crime is. It's like he was expecting Casinos, expert hit men and "making things disappear." Every time a gangland article came out or the Gambinos used a Puerto Rican associate I'd get a call from him: venting angrily much like how one gf would call another gf over something that transpired on their favorite reality tv show. He'd call me up to express disbelief and keep repeating: "It's over. It's over." I finally, years later, told him that if it's over he should stop reading about it because obviously it's not and that I'm sure the Mafia is just so fucking sorry that they don;t measure up to his movie-themed ideas of mafia-ismo. Needless to say we don't really talk anymore.
Eventually this brought me online where I encountered Mafia researchers haulking items on eBay which introduced me to the forums. My biggest "enlightenment" was when I first tried to argue that Luciano seems innocent in his book's narrative and bla bla bla. Remember, I was young and naive and unknowingly walked into the St Valentine's Day Massacre staccato of rebuttals:
1) I can't determine Luciano's innocence from a book and argue that against people who've read the court transcripts and Anslinger files.
2) Unione Siciliano in NY? Laughable
3) Mob bosses existed before 1931 so...
4) Last Testament was a fraud.
You get the picture.
I got my ass handed to me and, well it inspired to know what the fuck I was talking about when debating a subject. More than that, they introduced new ways of viewing information. But looking back then to what I know know, some preconceived notions that went to the wayside as I learned more:
1) The LCN began as an extension of the Sicilian mafia, not a copycat.
2) Luciano didn't form anything, families, ceremonies, ranks, hierarchies, commissions all predate him by decades.
3) There was really never a "Golden Age" just like there was never a "Toughest Mobster." Certain eras contained different advantages and obstacles. Many would consider the 20's or the 50's to be Golden eras but the 20's were a violent and turbulent time across America and the 50's was when mafiosi began being bugged without any inkling that such technology existed. (Luckily RICO and its predicates weren't around then or Appalachin attendees probably could have gotten serious time.
4) The older guys were "better" (whatever word or description to label them superior.) The primary difference is that law enforcement has caught up and the way informants were utilized have changed. Before the FBI and Top Hoodlum Program there was nothing to counter it. It's like the opioid epidemic and the lack of resources addressing it today, going through the legal procedures to actually combat it is more difficult than actually combatting it. It took law enforcement decades to catch up.
5) Blue collar criminality. I'd read Capeci's forum the last 10 years and noticed he began referring to associates as "mob wannabes" for the stupid shit they did to get featured on his column written by his students. I don't find the dumb shit really any different than any other era. Even when economic opportunities were abundant, many of these guys could not help but be broke and forced into desperate situations, even bosses.
I used to have a buddy who used to post and, based on what he said, became disillusioned with how unorganized organized crime is. It's like he was expecting Casinos, expert hit men and "making things disappear." Every time a gangland article came out or the Gambinos used a Puerto Rican associate I'd get a call from him: venting angrily much like how one gf would call another gf over something that transpired on their favorite reality tv show. He'd call me up to express disbelief and keep repeating: "It's over. It's over." I finally, years later, told him that if it's over he should stop reading about it because obviously it's not and that I'm sure the Mafia is just so fucking sorry that they don;t measure up to his movie-themed ideas of mafia-ismo. Needless to say we don't really talk anymore.
Last edited by Angelo Santino on Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Preconceived notions on the Mafia.
well articulated Chris
Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.
Good stuff, this should be protected with a law ![Cool 8-)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
![Cool 8-)](./images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
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- Pogo The Clown
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Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.
Chris Christie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:47 am 2) Luciano didn't form anything, families, ceremonies, ranks, hierarchies, commissions all predate him by decades.
Salvatore "Little Caesar" Maranzano created the 5 families in emulation of his hero Julius Caesar and the Roman Empire.
Pogo
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Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.
After many years of knowing quite a few Guys - I think that what I learned was how early and extensive that the LCN was infiltrated. The Guys were nice when they wanted to be and not so nice when it came to business. I found it not that much different than the "Legitimate Business". It was just normal to have these Guys around and doing business and that was just the way it was. If someone didn't do what needed to be done there were consequences and if you didn't do what was expected you got what you deserved and legitimate Law abiding citizens felt - you know what you were getting into.. so you knew the consequences. YOU CHOSE how to conduct business.
LCN didn't have some big MASTER PLAN - You lived each day and made a living and you either took advantage of what came up or you didn't. You had to Produce or get outta the way...
LCN had plenty of people that would "kill" for them literally and figuratively.
LCN didn't have some big MASTER PLAN - You lived each day and made a living and you either took advantage of what came up or you didn't. You had to Produce or get outta the way...
LCN had plenty of people that would "kill" for them literally and figuratively.
Know which Game to Play
- aleksandrored
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Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.
Great Article!!, and for me this is new, there is no "golden age," but it makes sense, since every decade has its own individuality and LCN took advantage of it, one question, why Lucky Luciano's Last Testament is a fraud? This is the second time I read this in the forum and I would like to know, I bought the book, but I have not read it yet and with the staff speaking it is fraud I'm afraid to read.
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Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.
The Last Testament of Lucky Luciano is how Lucky wanted things to be viewed not necessarily the way things actually happened. It is widely considered self serving and not factual. However, with that being said, It was the first mob book I ever read and I enjoyed it then and I still enjoy reading it on occasion. I don't think it is as bad as all the"historians" make it to be, and I don't think it is more or less factual than most other mobster biographies.aleksandrored wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:02 am Great Article!!, and for me this is new, there is no "golden age," but it makes sense, since every decade has its own individuality and LCN took advantage of it, one question, why Lucky Luciano's Last Testament is a fraud? This is the second time I read this in the forum and I would like to know, I bought the book, but I have not read it yet and with the staff speaking it is fraud I'm afraid to read.
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- Angelo Santino
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Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.
I'd read this article on the book before reading the book. Compliments of our very own Antiliar.aleksandrored wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:02 am Great Article!!, and for me this is new, there is no "golden age," but it makes sense, since every decade has its own individuality and LCN took advantage of it, one question, why Lucky Luciano's Last Testament is a fraud? This is the second time I read this in the forum and I would like to know, I bought the book, but I have not read it yet and with the staff speaking it is fraud I'm afraid to read.
http://informer-journal.blogspot.com/20 ... ament.html
- Angelo Santino
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Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.
You must be a fan of the 90's Film Mobsters like Pogo and myself. I'm pretty sure he and I could quote that movie back and forth line for line. It was all but lifted from Last Testament.MichaelGiovanni wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:55 amThe Last Testament of Lucky Luciano is how Lucky wanted things to be viewed not necessarily the way things actually happened. It is widely considered self serving and not factual. However, with that being said, It was the first mob book I ever read and I enjoyed it then and I still enjoy reading it on occasion. I don't think it is as bad as all the"historians" make it to be, and I don't think it is more or less factual than most other mobster biographies.aleksandrored wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:02 am Great Article!!, and for me this is new, there is no "golden age," but it makes sense, since every decade has its own individuality and LCN took advantage of it, one question, why Lucky Luciano's Last Testament is a fraud? This is the second time I read this in the forum and I would like to know, I bought the book, but I have not read it yet and with the staff speaking it is fraud I'm afraid to read.
I try and be careful what I say about Luciano, there's a middle line that needs to be towed because for me to just blurt out that his whole story is bullshit would turnoff other participants and make me look more ignorant than I already am. I think it would be wise to separate Luciano the Man and Luciano the Legend. Because despite history's default into fable around such things as the Sicilian Vespers, formation of Cosa Nostra, the so-called Americanization of the Mob, many people still believe these things and take that away can be a letdown for people. Back in the early 2000's before everyone want to Staten Island there were alot of Italian clubs and whatnot in Brooklyn, not mobbed up but you talk to some of these senior citizens, they'll tell you about Lucky Luciano and the 120 murders he ordered across New York, they talked about this stuff as factual history in a Robin Hood-esque fashion. And agree with it or not, that's a very important part of the story. I'm not out to rewrite history or be disparaging.
- SonnyBlackstein
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Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Mark Twain.
Mark Twain.
Don't give me your f***ing Manson lamps.
Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.
nice Sonny .never heard that before
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Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.
Right, so several things about Luciano are just legends, like the formation of the nostra thing, and the Sicilian Vespers? this is even strange because several documentaries he even quoted the book of the ultimatum testamente, and even the writer is there to speak ... knowing this where can I find veridical material about him?
Another question, about Meyer Lansky, is The Little Man the best book about him?
Another question, about Meyer Lansky, is The Little Man the best book about him?
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Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.
The Last testament is a hulking piece of excrement. If I owned a copy I'd enjoy throwing it away.
- Angelo Santino
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Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.
The Mafia and their silver screen image is another point of debate. When you factor in small details like Palermo Mafia meetings on via Beati Paoli where the (fictional) group conducted meetings to Tommy Boiardi's "Godfather Garden" to Goodfellas' Brooklynization of "the Made man."Is art imitating life or is it the other way around? In Underboss, Gravano makes a point at how smitten he and everyone else was with GF1, saying "That was our life!."
In the 1890's southern Italy had no shortage of mafia/camorra plays, many of them seemingly borrowed from 16th century English literature. The criminals were generally shown to be very grey, noble criminals in an ignoble world. Always with a flair for drama and rugged royalty. In Nome della Legge was arguably the Mafia's first major onscreen appearance continued this tradition, the Mafia Boss was esteemed with a distinct voice, a sense of old-world spirit with honorable intentions. Whether Puzo/Coppola knew it or not, they dusted off and updated the genre. Both The Godfather and the Sopranos can be placed in the same category due to their cultural relevance and also that both spawned a plethora of rip-offs.
One thing that I notice, and it's just an opinion/observation that major some disagree with: GF and Sopranos were different genres parading as mob stories. Quite different than say "This Thing Of Ours" where every cliche and stereotypical piece of dialogue just floods the film. People who had no interest in the mob still watched the Sopranos for good television, and the topics it explored, mainly being an aging baby boomer. There's a quote in S1E1 with Soprano saying: "I came out at the end, the best is over." That could just as easily be attributed to his mob generation as well as the malaise the baby boomer gen felt about life. David Chase apparently had extensive experience with psychology and with his Newark roots it's been rumored that he based some of the Sopranos on the Boiardi's mixed with current New Jersey shit (DeCavalcante, Fresolone's book). He certainly brought a non-New York and non-Sicilian take to The Mob genre. That's never been done before and left some (very few) mob enthusiast scratching their head at that choice (given the real life DeCav Ribera connection), but I for one found it to be a breath of fresh air.
In the 1890's southern Italy had no shortage of mafia/camorra plays, many of them seemingly borrowed from 16th century English literature. The criminals were generally shown to be very grey, noble criminals in an ignoble world. Always with a flair for drama and rugged royalty. In Nome della Legge was arguably the Mafia's first major onscreen appearance continued this tradition, the Mafia Boss was esteemed with a distinct voice, a sense of old-world spirit with honorable intentions. Whether Puzo/Coppola knew it or not, they dusted off and updated the genre. Both The Godfather and the Sopranos can be placed in the same category due to their cultural relevance and also that both spawned a plethora of rip-offs.
One thing that I notice, and it's just an opinion/observation that major some disagree with: GF and Sopranos were different genres parading as mob stories. Quite different than say "This Thing Of Ours" where every cliche and stereotypical piece of dialogue just floods the film. People who had no interest in the mob still watched the Sopranos for good television, and the topics it explored, mainly being an aging baby boomer. There's a quote in S1E1 with Soprano saying: "I came out at the end, the best is over." That could just as easily be attributed to his mob generation as well as the malaise the baby boomer gen felt about life. David Chase apparently had extensive experience with psychology and with his Newark roots it's been rumored that he based some of the Sopranos on the Boiardi's mixed with current New Jersey shit (DeCavalcante, Fresolone's book). He certainly brought a non-New York and non-Sicilian take to The Mob genre. That's never been done before and left some (very few) mob enthusiast scratching their head at that choice (given the real life DeCav Ribera connection), but I for one found it to be a breath of fresh air.
Re: Dispelled preconceived notions on the Mafia.
wouldn't surprise me. Any time I feel like having an existential crisis I just read some David Chase quotes. He' seems like someone whose spent too much time thinking about life, what it all means and what it's worth.David Chase apparently had extensive experience with psychology