Mikey Mancuso running Bonannos from prison.

[MichaelGiovanni]

Here's the quote from D'Arco's book about membership numbers.

from Chapter 7: 32 Spring Street

"One reason was that the leadership of New York’s five families had kept their enrollment books closed for new members for the past twenty years. Lucky Luciano’s original Commission had capped the number of members of each family as a means of keeping everyone in line. The Genovese and Gambino crews were the largest with some 300 soldiers each. The Colombo gang had about 150. The Luchese and Bonanno families were the smallest with 125 to 140 members."

[Pogo The Clown]

Pogo, what are your numbers for the other families?

If you mean members we've IDed


Genovese: 154-158
Gambino: 162-163
Bonanno: 130 (not counting Montreal)
Lucchese: 105-106
Colombo: 75-80


So pretty close to the LE numbers. Though in the case of the Gambinos and Genovese we woud have to do a bit of trimming since there are dead members on the list. More so then the other families.


Pogo

[Lupara]

Here's the quote from D'Arco's book about membership numbers.

from Chapter 7: 32 Spring Street

"One reason was that the leadership of New York’s five families had kept their enrollment books closed for new members for the past twenty years. Lucky Luciano’s original Commission had capped the number of members of each family as a means of keeping everyone in line. The Genovese and Gambino crews were the largest with some 300 soldiers each. The Colombo gang had about 150. The Luchese and Bonanno families were the smallest with 125 to 140 members."

Seems like he may have confused the Colombos with the Bonannos then. All evidence clearly puts the Bonannos at number #3 in size over the years.

Looking at history, it doesn't make sense why the Colombos were allowed to be larger than the Bonannos and Lukes. The Bonannos were one of the three original Mafia families in New York while the Colombos and Lukes were offshoots that emerged later on. Based on number assessments the Colombos were always the smallest and least significant of the Five Families.

[HairyKnuckles]

Here's the quote from D'Arco's book about membership numbers.

from Chapter 7: 32 Spring Street

"One reason was that the leadership of New York’s five families had kept their enrollment books closed for new members for the past twenty years. Lucky Luciano’s original Commission had capped the number of members of each family as a means of keeping everyone in line. The Genovese and Gambino crews were the largest with some 300 soldiers each. The Colombo gang had about 150. The Luchese and Bonanno families were the smallest with 125 to 140 members."

Thanks! Yeah I found it too, Page 128.

The thing is, Capeci did not write it as a D´Arco quote but seems to be saying it himself. What makes this whole thing suspicious is that the numbers are off. The Bonannos had close to 300 members in the early 1930s. And don´t say that Joe Bonanno was lying, because he had no reason to lie about it, especially when he also says that the Genovese and the Gambino Familiies were bigger in size. And as I said, no CI, nor Valachi or any other so called rat in the 1950s and 1960s said anything about a member´s cap. It´s surprising to me that there would have been a cap and that the smaller NY Families would have agreed on it if that was the case.

And like I said earlier when the discussion on caps first was brought up on these forums, there may be caps now (imposed much later by the bosses) but I don´t know about that. But there was no cap imposed with the birth of the Commission. I´ll eat my hat if I´m wrong. That´s how sure i am.

[Chucky]

Didn't Palermo mentions a cap for the DeCavalcantes?

[Pogo The Clown]

Didn't Palermo mentions a cap for the DeCavalcantes?

Yeah it was 75 members. There probably was a cap at one point (though the numbers given up top are probably off) but I doubt it is really kept track of. I doubt very much that say, a Colombo guy, is counting how many members the Genovese have or vice versa. These guy's have a hard enough time keeping track the people in their own families. If they did keep track then Sal Vitale wouldn't have been able to pull names out of a phone book and claim them as dead members so the Bonannos could make more.


Pogo

[Wiseguy]

Didn't Palermo mentions a cap for the DeCavalcantes?

Yeah it was 75 members. There probably was a cap at one point (though the numbers given up top are probably off) but I doubt it is really kept track of. I doubt very much that say, a Colombo guy, is counting how many members the Genovese have or vice versa. These guy's have a hard enough time keeping track the people in their own families. If they did keep track then Sal Vitale wouldn't have been able to pull names out of a phone book and claim them as dead members so the Bonannos could make more.


Pogo

I actually remember reading that Jo Jo Corozzo accused Vitale of pulling that stunt (or something to make more members than he should) and Vitale accused the Gambinos of doing the same thing.

Anyway, the fact that a NY family has to circulate a list of prospective members (and which dead members they're replacing) and the other families have 2 weeks to raise any objections shows there is some oversight.

[Wiseguy]

Here's the quote from D'Arco's book about membership numbers.

from Chapter 7: 32 Spring Street

"One reason was that the leadership of New York’s five families had kept their enrollment books closed for new members for the past twenty years. Lucky Luciano’s original Commission had capped the number of members of each family as a means of keeping everyone in line. The Genovese and Gambino crews were the largest with some 300 soldiers each. The Colombo gang had about 150. The Luchese and Bonanno families were the smallest with 125 to 140 members."

Seems like he may have confused the Colombos with the Bonannos then. All evidence clearly puts the Bonannos at number #3 in size over the years.

Looking at history, it doesn't make sense why the Colombos were allowed to be larger than the Bonannos and Lukes. The Bonannos were one of the three original Mafia families in New York while the Colombos and Lukes were offshoots that emerged later on. Based on number assessments the Colombos were always the smallest and least significant of the Five Families.

Just as the two larger families have, the three smaller families have actually fluctuated in their respective size positions at times over the years. For example, in the late 1980s/early 1990s the Luccheses were the third largest family, the Colombos fourth, and the Bonannos the smallest.

[B.]

This discussion comes up so much I feel like we need a basic Q & A to link to. There is plenty of evidence of caps in NYC and we have a general idea of the sizes, though some of the info is conflicting. Pussy Russo was recorded in the 1960s referencing 300 as the Genovese cap, among other examples.

There was that story about Gotti asking Chin about all of the empty spots they hadn't replaced, where Chin basically told him to mind his own business, so if that's true it's an indication that different families keep tabs on each others' sizes.

[Wiseguy]

This discussion comes up so much I feel like we need a basic Q & A to link to. There is plenty of evidence of caps in NYC and we have a general idea of the sizes, though some of the info is conflicting. Pussy Russo was recorded in the 1960s referencing 300 as the Genovese cap, among other examples.

There was that story about Gotti asking Chin about all of the empty spots they hadn't replaced, where Chin basically told him to mind his own business, so if that's true it's an indication that different families keep tabs on each others' sizes.

Agreed. Mikey Scars also testified about it in Junior Gotti's 2006 trial -

"Every family has a ceiling on how far their family could grow. When you get to your number, you have to wait for somebody to die to replace that number."

I think what HK is questioning is whether there was a membership limit closer to the beginning. Capeci, who said it started with Luciano and the Commission, isn't exactly known for just making things up out of thin air or presenting his assumptions as fact. And the membership limits in the D'Arco book are quite different from the ones Capeci put in his earlier book. In fact, they were relatively low compared to past figures and, regardless of what one thinks about the figures themselves, that leads me to believe it was new info coming from D'Arco.

It also stands to reason that the five families would put a cap on membership early on. Otherwise, what was to stop an arms race, so to speak, of families making as many members as possible?

[Stroccos]

This discussion comes up so much I feel like we need a basic Q & A to link to. There is plenty of evidence of caps in NYC and we have a general idea of the sizes, though some of the info is conflicting. Pussy Russo was recorded in the 1960s referencing 300 as the Genovese cap, among other examples.

There was that story about Gotti asking Chin about all of the empty spots they hadn't replaced, where Chin basically told him to mind his own business, so if that's true it's an indication that different families keep tabs on each others' sizes.

Agreed. Mikey Scars also testified about it in Junior Gotti's 2006 trial -

"Every family has a ceiling on how far their family could grow. When you get to your number, you have to wait for somebody to die to replace that number."

I think what HK is questioning is whether there was a membership limit closer to the beginning. Capeci, who said it started with Luciano and the Commission, isn't exactly known for just making things up out of thin air or presenting his assumptions as fact. And the membership limits in the D'Arco book are quite different from the ones Capeci put in his earlier book. In fact, they were relatively low compared to past figures and, regardless of what one thinks about the figures themselves, that leads me to believe it was new info coming from D'Arco.

It also stands to reason that the five families would put a cap on membership early on. Otherwise, what was to stop an arms race, so to speak, of families making as many members as possible?

Did this rule come about because people were buying buttons ,

I can’t remeber wasn’t there also a rule you couldn’t whack someone and then turn around and make a guy ?

[Wiseguy]

I can’t remeber wasn’t there also a rule you couldn’t whack someone and then turn around and make a guy ?

That is one of the rules, ie a family can never replace a member it has had killed.

[B.]

The +2 for Christmas is supposedly in addition to the cap in order to make up for lost numbers.

[SonnyBlackstein]

I can’t remeber wasn’t there also a rule you couldn’t whack someone and then turn around and make a guy ?

That is one of the rules, ie a family can never replace a member it has had killed.

If that’s a rule it’s in name only. The Gambinos would be down to 30 guys if that were enforced.

[Pogo The Clown]

Yeah they just can't put him on the list as lost member to be replaced.


Pogo