Present Day Chicago Outfit

[Snakes]

Where this come's into play is in the cases and indictments. You hear words like "soldier," "capo," "boss," "underboss," etc. a lot more on the East Coast. In fact, I can recall only one indictment where they were labeled as such and that was Family Secrets, and even then it was just "made member." Most of the indictments on the East Coast name the defendant's respective position.

[Pogo The Clown]

But how are they secretive?


Al Capone is the most famous gangster in US history. You had the Untouchables, Frank Nitti and the whole Hollywood extortion case that got national coverage. You had same Sam Giancana who was the Gotti of the 60s with how much he was in the news. You had Tony Spilotro, the Vegas skim and the Strawman cases that got national coverage during the 80s. Throughout their existence up to the late 80s/early 90s they were constantly in the news for all the bodies they publically dropped, the torture murders, all the trunk music, etc.


If you add up all of the news coverage, books, documentaries and movies about Chicago they equally surpass any other family many times over. It is only on the forums where they have somehow gotten a reputation for being secretive.


Pogo

[SonnyBlackstein]

The difference is in the details. We're both right but answering differing questions.
If you're talking public perception or general knowledge then sure, Chicago is well known. At least if not more than your 'average' EC LCN family.
But I'm talking regards internal family knowledge. Hierarchy, making ceremonies, structure etc.

The family is known, but how it operates is less so.
At least than its contemporaries, historically.

[Pogo The Clown]

But I'm talking regards internal family knowledge. Hierarchy, making ceremonies, structure etc.

To us sure but not to LE as was the point that was being brought up earlier. Trying to argue that it is why they there is less coming out about the Outfit today.


Pogo

[SonnyBlackstein]

I'm going to back out to prevent this f***ing thread from getting to 24 pages.

A show about nothing as Jerry would say

[Snakes]

But why didn't LE release the same info on them as they did other families? That's my point. If they knew these guys were made or capos, would it not be in their best interest to specify them as such in the indictments, as they do on the East Coast? Maybe it's not a big deal to others but it speaks volumes about what LE is able to prove in a court of law as opposed to what they suspect or hear from confidential informants who will never testify.

[Pete]

I think it's only more secretive because there has been only one member to flip. We didn't even know Chicago had a traditional making ceremony before calabrese. Also Chicago tried to keep the crews mostly separate they didn't tell everyone who was made and who wasn't. Calabrese said jimmy lapietra made a huge mistake because he told him about the 88 ceremony. He wasn't supposed to tell anyone there was a ceremony and who was made.

[Pogo The Clown]

But why didn't LE release the same info on them as they did other families? That's my point. If they knew these guys were made or capos, would it not be in their best interest to specify them as such in the indictments, as they do on the East Coast? Maybe it's not a big deal to others but it speaks volumes about what LE is able to prove in a court of law as opposed to what they suspect or hear from confidential informants who will never testify.

Who knows. But it hasn't made a difference in their success in prosecuting the Outfit.


Pogo

[UTC]

Incredibly repetitive.

[Wiseguy]

"But the collective evidence, not just cases but statements from the feds, really tell you all you need to know about the present day Chicago Outfit. Everything else is speculation."
Of course this is just an assumption rather than proof also. A good assumption too, but it accepts correlation as causation.
If someone really did know something about a family to the contrary, and stated it, the forum as a whole would be largely skeptical, and many would call bullshit. But in truth we wouldn't really know whether it was accurate or not.

I've said many times that is someone says something about a family, I usually dont have an issue with it as long as it doesn't conflict with the available evidence. But if it does, that's a problem and we've seen it over and over again on these forums.

In other words, if indictments, statements from law enforcement, etc say one thing about the state of the Outfit and some poster on an internet forum is saying the opposite, you can rest assured that poster is talking out of their ass. Of course they're entitled to whatever opinion they want to have but too often they try to support their stance with claims or insinuations of inside knowledge or being in some position to know better than anyone else. And those types on these forums have either proven to be phonies, or at least going beyond what they do know, pretty much without exception.

I think it's only more secretive because there has been only one member to flip. We didn't even know Chicago had a traditional making ceremony before calabrese. Also Chicago tried to keep the crews mostly separate they didn't tell everyone who was made and who wasn't. Calabrese said jimmy lapietra made a huge mistake because he told him about the 88 ceremony. He wasn't supposed to tell anyone there was a ceremony and who was made.

While the Outfit not using the traditional ceremony seemed to be the general consensus among many, there was this affidavit in the late 1990s (at least a few years before Calabrese started cooperating) by a former FBI agent testifying in a LIUNA hearing about John Matassa. Among the things he said included...

15. The FBI maintains an inventory of members and associates of the Chicago Outfit.

16. The FBI defines a "made member" as a person who has participated in a formalized ceremony and has the right to share in the profits of the Chicago Outfit. A made member has the right to run his own street crew; to make loans known as "juice loans"; to extort "street tax" from local businesses and from gamblers and bookmakers; and to otherwise take control of gambling and bookmaking in his area. A made members is also entitled to the respect of other made members.

17. An "associate" of the Outfit is a person who works on behalf of a made member in the day-to-day activities of the Outfit such as collecting interest on juice loans; collecting street tax; contacting bookmakers; and settling debts. Other "associates" of the Outfit do not participate in the day-to-day criminal activities of Organized Crime but help facilitate these activities.

18. The FBI keeps an inventory of individuals who are associates or members of Organized Crime. In order for the FBI to categorize a person as a member or associate of Organized Crime, certain requirements must be met. Generally, those requirements are that two known made members are heard on a wiretap discussing another person as a made member; or that two known made members are heard discussing a third person as a made member, in the presence of an undercover FBI agent; or that two reliable organized crime informants independently identify a person as a made member.

http://www.ipsn.org/orourke_affidavit.php

[Confederate]

I think it's only more secretive because there has been only one member to flip. We didn't even know Chicago had a traditional making ceremony before calabrese. Also Chicago tried to keep the crews mostly separate they didn't tell everyone who was made and who wasn't. Calabrese said jimmy lapietra made a huge mistake because he told him about the 88 ceremony. He wasn't supposed to tell anyone there was a ceremony and who was made.

Lots of guys have flipped in Chicago. This "Only one member has flipped" is nonsense. Lots of "important" people have flipped in Chicago like Lenny Patrick etc. That is why Villain & Snakes can tell you the structure of the Outfit from years ago. If THEY can tell you, then the Feds can tell you.
Not knowing a few details didn't stop the Feds from DECIMATING the Outfit in the 1990's. Nobody cared if the soldiers in a crew were MADE or not MADE or what year they MIGHT have been made. The Feds didn't need to know any of that bullshit in the 1990's to put ALOT of people in Jail.

Now, you have TWO HIGH LEVEL informants within what is left of the Outfit. Nobody in their RIGHT MIND would even WANT to be the top Boss of the Outfit because it is a SURE prison sentence.

[Pete]

I think it's only more secretive because there has been only one member to flip. We didn't even know Chicago had a traditional making ceremony before calabrese. Also Chicago tried to keep the crews mostly separate they didn't tell everyone who was made and who wasn't. Calabrese said jimmy lapietra made a huge mistake because he told him about the 88 ceremony. He wasn't supposed to tell anyone there was a ceremony and who was made.

Lots of guys have flipped in Chicago. This "Only one member has flipped" is nonsense. Lots of "important" people have flipped in Chicago like Lenny Patrick etc. That is why Villain & Snakes can tell you the structure of the Outfit from years ago. If THEY can tell you, then the Feds can tell you.
Not knowing a few details didn't stop the Feds from DECIMATING the Outfit in the 1990's. Nobody cared if the soldiers in a crew were MADE or not MADE or what year they MIGHT have been made. The Feds didn't need to know any of that bullshit in the 1990's to put ALOT of people in Jail.

Now, you have TWO HIGH LEVEL informants within what is left of the Outfit. Nobody in their RIGHT MIND would even WANT to be the top Boss of the Outfit because it is a SURE prison sentence.

It's not nonsense. One made member flipped and testified against the outfit. Yes important people have flipped but only one guy on the inside that testified to the ceremony, structure, etc. I don't think Patrick provided anything about who was made and who wasn't and how many made members there were and that sort of thing. If he did I'll retract my statement. There's a big difference between guys like Patrick and guys like calabrese in relation to the topic we are discussing.

[Pete]

Agreed no one in their right mind would want the top spot that's why I found it highly unlikely guys like Pete difronzo and Joey a would be the boss. Old and have all the money in the world why risk all that at this point in their lives?

[Pete]

"But the collective evidence, not just cases but statements from the feds, really tell you all you need to know about the present day Chicago Outfit. Everything else is speculation."
Of course this is just an assumption rather than proof also. A good assumption too, but it accepts correlation as causation.
If someone really did know something about a family to the contrary, and stated it, the forum as a whole would be largely skeptical, and many would call bullshit. But in truth we wouldn't really know whether it was accurate or not.

I've said many times that is someone says something about a family, I usually dont have an issue with it as long as it doesn't conflict with the available evidence. But if it does, that's a problem and we've seen it over and over again on these forums.

In other words, if indictments, statements from law enforcement, etc say one thing about the state of the Outfit and some poster on an internet forum is saying the opposite, you can rest assured that poster is talking out of their ass. Of course they're entitled to whatever opinion they want to have but too often they try to support their stance with claims or insinuations of inside knowledge or being in some position to know better than anyone else. And those types on these forums have either proven to be phonies, or at least going beyond what they do know, pretty much without exception.

I think it's only more secretive because there has been only one member to flip. We didn't even know Chicago had a traditional making ceremony before calabrese. Also Chicago tried to keep the crews mostly separate they didn't tell everyone who was made and who wasn't. Calabrese said jimmy lapietra made a huge mistake because he told him about the 88 ceremony. He wasn't supposed to tell anyone there was a ceremony and who was made.

While the Outfit not using the traditional ceremony seemed to be the general consensus among many, there was this affidavit in the late 1990s (at least a few years before Calabrese started cooperating) by a former FBI agent testifying in a LIUNA hearing about John Matassa. Among the things he said included...

15. The FBI maintains an inventory of members and associates of the Chicago Outfit.

16. The FBI defines a "made member" as a person who has participated in a formalized ceremony and has the right to share in the profits of the Chicago Outfit. A made member has the right to run his own street crew; to make loans known as "juice loans"; to extort "street tax" from local businesses and from gamblers and bookmakers; and to otherwise take control of gambling and bookmaking in his area. A made members is also entitled to the respect of other made members.

17. An "associate" of the Outfit is a person who works on behalf of a made member in the day-to-day activities of the Outfit such as collecting interest on juice loans; collecting street tax; contacting bookmakers; and settling debts. Other "associates" of the Outfit do not participate in the day-to-day criminal activities of Organized Crime but help facilitate these activities.

18. The FBI keeps an inventory of individuals who are associates or members of Organized Crime. In order for the FBI to categorize a person as a member or associate of Organized Crime, certain requirements must be met. Generally, those requirements are that two known made members are heard on a wiretap discussing another person as a made member; or that two known made members are heard discussing a third person as a made member, in the presence of an undercover FBI agent; or that two reliable organized crime informants independently identify a person as a made member.

http://www.ipsn.org/orourke_affidavit.php

Yes wiseguy the Feds knew about the ceremony for some time. That info wasn't really released to the general public though until family secrets. At least not the whole thing as you pointed out it was referenced before. This goes back to the Feds know a lot more and only release things when it's necessary to a case. Vena was only confirmed to be grand avenue boss because it came out in questioning during the mandell trial. It's highly improbable that anyone on these boards knows more about the current leadership and membership of the outfit than the Feds

[SonnyBlackstein]

Nobody in their RIGHT MIND would even WANT to be the top Boss of the Outfit because it is a SURE prison sentence.

John DiFronzo.

Incredibly repetitive.

This. And the last Chicago thread.
And the one before. And the one before. And the one before. And ...