Is there any doubt Mags is a beefer?

[Villain]

Does anyone know the was Nitti ever the official boss answer. I came up with another theory. Maybe he was acting boss for Capone, then when it was clear Capone was never going to be boss again, Ricca took over as Official boss around 1938. Just another possibility. Also wasn't Campagnia the underboss for Nitti.

Even though in some of my old work i usually stated that Nitto wasnt the boss until the mid 1930's with Ricca being before him but as time passed by, I was obviously wrong regarding some cases such as this one and so my newest theory is that after Capone or should i say in 1932, the main guys were Ricca, Campagna and D'Andrea. I really cant tell who was what but obviously one was the boss, the other underboss and the last one an advisor. Nitto was in charge of the Near North Side and also the most powerful and oldest crew during that period and was made the boss by the media and the government, which both did not have any clue on anything regarding the Outfit during that time. I mean they used to say that every mobster from that era was the boss of some syndicate, which is a practice still used even today

So there is no possibility that Nitto ever was the official boss, even a "puppet" one? Most people seem to agree that Ricca out-powered him, but I also read that the theories that Ricca was already THAT powerful even in the 1st half of the 30s comes mostly from the fact he was once arrested with Lucky Luciano and Meyer Lansky in 1932 (April 19), and him being associated with New York top mobsters made him look more important. That is mentioned in Mars Eghigian's book about Frank Nitto, and it seems that the author thinks that while Ricca was important, Nitto wasn't a "puppet front man" with importance exaggerated by the media only, and that he could be in charge for some time for real. So I don't yet get it, whether the theory of Nitto being official boss at least in name and/or for some time, whether the theory is completely proven wrong today or the question is still unanswered?

Here are few of the main reasons for which many researchers think that Nitto was the one time boss...one is that he was allegedly close to Capone which I believe the story comes because of Nitto's one time role as the main book keeper and also their convictions at the same time...the second is when Cermak sent his goons to kill Nitto, instead of Ricca or Campagna, a confusion which I believe occurred mainly because of the media and government and their lack of knowledge at the time...and the third reason is Bioff's testimony in which he states that during his meetings with the boys, Nitto often had the last word, even though most of the present such as Ricca, Campagna or D'Andrea kept quiet and mostly listened. To me it doesnt make sence for someone often having the last word if all of the individuals in that same room mostly keep quiet. Also theres another example where Murray Humphreys also had the last word regarding union racketeering but that did not make him the boss of the organization and the Bioff/Nitto relationship was often regarding the unions...I also believe that Nitto's suicide was the real.proof for him not being the boss

[Dwalin2014]

Here are few of the main reasons for which many researchers think that Nitto was the one time boss...one is that he was allegedly close to Capone which I believe the story comes because of Nitto's one time role as the main book keeper and also their convictions at the same time...the second is when Cermak sent his goons to kill Nitto, instead of Ricca or Campagna, a confusion which I believe occurred mainly because of the media and government and their lack of knowledge at the time...and the third reason is Bioff's testimony in which he states that during his meetings with the boys, Nitto often had the last word, even though most of the present such as Ricca, Campagna or D'Andrea kept quiet and mostly listened. To me it doesnt make sence for someone often having the last word if all of the individuals in that same room mostly keep quiet. Also theres another example where Murray Humphreys also had the last word regarding union racketeering but that did not make him the boss of the organization and the Bioff/Nitto relationship was often regarding the unions...I also believe that Nitto's suicide was the real.proof for him not being the boss

I agree, but the fact he killed himself imo could have happened even if he was the boss, because he had claustrophobia in jail cells as a personal weakness, and if everybody else united themselves against him and said he should take the rap alone for everybody, theoretically even a strong boss wouldn't have a choice, if ALL the high ranking members had their words against his. I mean, EVEN IF, for example, Nitto was boss, Ricca underboss etc, if Ricca had everybody else on his side agreeing Nitto should take the rap, then the boss's word alone against everybody isn't strong enough. I am not saying that I think he really was the boss, it was probably like you say, what I mean is that his suicide isn't by itself proof that he was lower ranking imo, but that he was afraid of staying in jail for 10 years, more than he was afraid of dying. Of course, naming as boss somebody who couldn't even stand jail, would be unlikely, so I agree you are probably right that he wasn't.

By the way, when Capone went to jail, I read (don't remember anymore which book it was) that some informants among associates (if I remember well) told the tax agents that the main income was divided between 4 people: Al Capone, Ralph Capone, Frank Nitto and Jake Guzik, and that's why it was these 4 who were targeted first of all and went to jail. Why no mention of Ricca? Could be false information though, I will check the books, will tell you which one it was if I find the quote.

EDIT: wrote wrong numbers about their ages, so deleted the paragraph

[Frank]

Well the Ricca succeeding Capone people always state his representing Chicago at Commission meetings. Wasn't Nitti shot and had to recover for a period of time. Maybe also maybe he sent Ricca because he delegated that job to Paul. Maybe he didn't like train rides. Is there proof that Luciano didn't like Nitti. What about Joe Fosco saying that Campania was boss.what about the people that list Ricca as neither boss or underboss at the time. Even read Charley Fischetti was boss. Lol. Myself I still believe Nitti was boss, but if someone can really convince me with some hardcore facts it wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't. It kind of reminds me of the post Accardo and Aiuppa years. DiFronzo it seems now had been top boss since Accardo death or since he got out of prison on appeal.whithe Monteleone Addriacchi Marcello Sarno Pete DiFronzo SolleyD and now Vena as street boss and Solly taking over for No nose in the last few years. But remember they weren't sure most of those years who was boss. But it wouldn't surprise me if DiFronzo didn't become the official top boss till Aiuppa died. Or that Addriacchi was briefly the top boss to groom Solly D if Joe Fosco is to be believed.

[Dwalin2014]

Whether Nitti / Nitto (real last name Nitto, Nitti was a newspaper misspelling) was boss and Ricca underboss or the other way around, who was the consigliere at the time? Just being curious because later, after the Outfit leadership was released in 1947, this position "morphed" into a sort of "puppeteer behind the scenes" who had the real power, for Ricca and Accardo later. Or weren't they official consiglieri after pretending to retire? I mean, Accardo was official boss for some time in the 50s, then "retired" but continued to give orders behind the scenes along with Ricca, although I read he recognized Ricca as superior, what was their formal rank at the time? Strange though that, with Ricca being more important than Accardo until he died, still he had to serve brief prison terms at least twice, while Accardo served 1 night and even when he got 6 years for tax evasion they used all their power to keep him out until it was overturned on appeal. Why couldn't they do the same for Ricca if he was more important?

[Snakes]

I think the notion of the Outfit having front bosses is bunk. Everyone knew the hierarchy between Ricca, Accardo, and Giancana. What's the point of having a "front" if everyone knows who is in charge?

[Dwalin2014]

I think the notion of the Outfit having front bosses is bunk. Everyone knew the hierarchy between Ricca, Accardo, and Giancana. What's the point of having a "front" if everyone knows who is in charge?

But then what was Giancana's formal rank? Was he official boss or wasn't he?

[Snakes]

He ran things direct with the crews. At that time, there was no "formal" hierarchy in the sense of the New York families.

[Dwalin2014]

And having a front can be used for law enforcement so they go after the wrong guy, even though the mafia members know who is in charge. I still don't get it about the Genovese family in New York for example, whether Lombardo really pulled the strings all the time since Vito's death. But, if he did, then was it only to confuse law enforcement or was it a secret from the other 4 families too? Although some people say he was never the puppeteer, but Tieri and others were real bosses, or that there were "ruling panels" like Tieri/Salerno/Gigante or something. The most secretive family ever since Vito Genovese's death, even today nobody can say 100% for sure who is the boss. Only during Gigante's rule it was temporarily known...

[Snakes]

But Giancana being the top guy on the streets wasn't a secret. I guess technically Giancana was the boss but Ricca and Accordo played the role of co-consiglieres only with much more influence than normal LCN consiglieres. But this would be applying formal LCN structures to the Outfit, which was the same mistake that law enforcement made. The Outfit was very informally structured compared to the East Coast families.

[Dwalin2014]

By the way, I think if the law enforcement really wanted to hurt the mafia in Chicago, they could simply deport or extradite Ricca (don't remember if he ever got a citizenship) to Italy where a 21-year sentence was eagerly waiting for him for decades. But I think I read at the end the Italians stopped asking for it and the sentence just "disappeared" or something (don't remember anymore how, it couldn't be overturned if affirmed by all the courts). But, while he could have bought the key law enforcement officials responsible for deportations and extraditions in the USA, how did his sentence in Italy "disappear" like that? Was the Chicago mob that powerful that they could buy people even in other countries? Or did the Italian mafia do him a favor by arranging this?

[Antiliar]

I'm not sure that Ricca and Accardo were ever called consiglieri or if Chicago ever had it as an official position. It may be that it was just understood that from 1955 to 1972 Ricca was the top guy, but boss in a different sense than Accardo and Giancana. The day-to-day boss went to Commission meetings. Ricca and Accardo advised the boss, but if things got out of hand could overrule him.

By the way, the U.S. federal government did try to deport Ricca. He had good attorneys to fight it, claimed illness, and even cut out news stories of his crimes and mailed them to the embassies of other countries. Italy refused to accept him back. (I don't know how it could, since he was born there, that's what happened.) He was under a deportation order when he died.

[Frank]

Didn't the Outfit have kind of a panel or a Board of Directors type thing that included Guzak and Humphreys and Vogel probably Ricca then Accardo were probably Chairman. Heard they didn't use the term Capo. Also Humphreys was a kind of advisor too. I don't know if the front boss was on the board. Read were Ross Prio was on the board.

[Snakes]

They used capo much more than consigliere, which I'm not sure they ever used. I only used the term to compare it to a similar position from the NY families, although they had much more authority than that.

[Frank]

Yes just called advisor. I think with Ricca and Accardo not only did they take a step back from the streets,another layer of protection they were there to advise and also in some matters tell the boss what to do. And to pick who will be boss .they were the street or front bosses boss.

[Villain]

My opinion regarding Riccas high stature comes from Gentile who in turn reffered to him as "il comparello" which i believe its wrongfuly pronounced and i also believe that guys like Ricca and Volpe were possibly made by Esposito before Capone, which could explain Riccas high position after the imprisonment of Capone. Dont forget that after the murder of Esposito, all of these fellas went straight up mostly because they took over his operations. Previously Capones stronghold were the Cicero area and the South Side, but after Esposito the West Side bloc became the most powerful faction within the syndicate, which again might explain their fast rise after Capone. In plane words, Ricca, Volpe and Campagna took over Als organization, probably not by force. At same time Volpe began having deportation problems which left only Ricca and Campagna at the top, with the main leftovers from Als syndicate including D'Andrea and C Fischetti