Roots of the Capone Mob a.k.a. the Chicago Outfit

[Villain]

Thank you for your answer Antiliar. It feels good when I know that I'm not that crazy for thinking like that lol If you look at the situation more clearly, we never talked about this before but still you also came to a similar conclusion which means that the theory might be quite possible.

Snakes thank you also and as I previously said that you always need at least two individuals to figure something out.

In the end, I want to say that I have my own final theory regarding the Outfit's confusing history. Lets say that by the late 1930's or during the first decade of its formation as Cosa Nostra family, the Outfit functioned with separate crews in different territories, each with a captain at the top. But according to numerous reports (and heres where the "confusing" part comes) by the early 1940's the most powerful and greedy group which was the West Side, led by the Taylor St crew, began importing their own members in different territories (Giancana, Battaglia, Fratto etc.) On top of that, the West Side block wasnt the only group which "imported" their own crew members in different territories but instead the South Side faction did the same thing (Belcastro,Catuara) and also the Northsiders (DiVarco, Allegretti).

So my point is that from the early 1940's until the late 1960's theres a great possibility that the Outfit almost began operating as one organization, meaning if anyone wanted to enter in different territory he just had to pay to the captain of that area and also give a "small" share to the chief executive. I mean dont get me wrong, there were still the basic crews but there were so many other members who operated in those same territories thus making the situation quite chaotic. For me personally this might be the possible explanation for all of the internal conflicts which occurred during that period. And I also believe that this situation continued until the demise of Buccieri, who was the last powerful West Side captain with operations all around Chicago. After that, the Cicero and Melrose Park areas, which were only two of all of the divided territories, returned to the form with one basic crew.

Here's one interesting conversation between Humphreys and Ferraro talking about "one clique"...

https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?do ... e%20clique

[Dwalin2014]

The Maritotes came from Brusciano, Naples, Italy.

So he was from Campania too....The Chicago Outfit (at least back then) looks more like Camorra than Cosa Nostra, looking at where the did the leaders come from. But were only the bosses and other high-ranking members Campanian or were most soldiers too? Was the whole group Campanian it its majority or just the leadership?

[Snakes]

Villain, I believe the territory "sharing" continued beyond Buccieri's death. Guys like Joey Lombardo had interests in the North Side in the seventies and eighties, although this seemed to be the exception rather than the rule.

[Villain]

Villain, I believe the territory "sharing" continued beyond Buccieri's death. Guys like Joey Lombardo had interests in the North Side in the seventies and eighties, although this seemed to be the exception rather than the rule.

I have no doubts about that. Lombardo came under the West Side administration and back in the old days the whole North Side was divided between three groups, including the basic crew, the Fischettis, and the Westsiders such as Caifano and Potenza

[Villain]

I have one question for Antiliar or Snakes and that is, what time did Caifano became the Outfit's representative in Vegas? Im going through a hard time finding the exact year on Caifano's presence in that territory and I believe that the right info might help me in solving some confusions...

[Snakes]

I believe he was present in Vegas for some part of the 1950's. His influence started to wane around 1960 and at some point he came back to Chicago full time. He was arrested in Vegas in 1963, which was essentially his swan song in the city. Spilotro didn't immediately replace him, either. He didn't make it out west until 1973 or '74.

[Villain]

I believe he was present in Vegas for some part of the 1950's. His influence started to wane around 1960 and at some point he came back to Chicago full time. He was arrested in Vegas in 1963, which was essentially his swan song in the city. Spilotro didn't immediately replace him, either. He didn't make it out west until 1973 or '74.

Yeah, I read that after Caifano, many non-Italians became or were brought back as representatives over there such as Kruse, Lederer and Drew but Im confused on the part regarding the time period or the year of Roselli's step back and Caifano's entrance...the problem in my head is, when did Caifano really became one of the top guys on the Near North Side...was it before or after Vegas?

[Antiliar]

Caifano was spending time in California and Nevada as early as 1953, when he took part in killing Russian Louie Strauss. He was arrested in Beverly Hills two years later. He was regularly seen on the North Side in the 1950s, where he had interests under Battaglia. So he commuted back and forth between the West Coast and Chicago. Milwaukee Phil also did a lot of back and forth between California/Nevada and Chicago.

I think we need to get rid of the narrative created by Bill Roemer that Roselli was Chicago's man in Vegas, then Caifano, then Spilotro. It wasn't a smooth transition like that, plus there were others involved. Sam Carlisi and Joey Lombardo also traveled between California/Nevada and Chicago, in addition to a lot of other guys like Tony Pinelli, who lived in Sierra Madre, California, but never left the Outfit. I think the Fischetti brothers also spent time in Vegas.

Roemer counts Roselli as always being a Chicago guy, but he was part of the Los Angeles Family direct to Jack Dragna. After Dragna died in 1956, he and Jimmy Fratianno (actually he transferred later after he got out of prison) both transferred to the Chicago Family. However, Los Angeles and Chicago closely worked together when Dragna was the boss. They might have backed Dragna to take over from Joe Ardizzone in 1931, but that's speculation. So Roselli, up until 1956, was in California and Las Vegas helping the interests of the Los Angeles Family and Chicago, but his membership and loyalty was to Dragna. When he transferred he appears to have been direct to Sam Giancana. Frank Desimone, Dragna's successor, claimed that Roselli's and Fratianno's transfer to Chicago wasn't valid, but Roselli's was supported by Giancana. Nobody could verify Fratianno's transfer, so Desimone claimed he was still part of Los Angeles and insubordinate. Anyway, the point is, the Outfit's role in Las Vegas was more complicated and nuanced than Roemer's narrative.

[Villain]

Caifano was spending time in California and Nevada as early as 1953, when he took part in killing Russian Louie Strauss. He was arrested in Beverly Hills two years later. He was regularly seen on the North Side in the 1950s, where he had interests under Battaglia. So he commuted back and forth between the West Coast and Chicago. Milwaukee Phil also did a lot of back and forth between California/Nevada and Chicago.

I think we need to get rid of the narrative created by Bill Roemer that Roselli was Chicago's man in Vegas, then Caifano, then Spilotro. It wasn't a smooth transition like that, plus there were others involved. Sam Carlisi and Joey Lombardo also traveled between California/Nevada and Chicago, in addition to a lot of other guys like Tony Pinelli, who lived in Sierra Madre, California, but never left the Outfit. I think the Fischetti brothers also spent time in Vegas.

Roemer counts Roselli as always being a Chicago guy, but he was part of the Los Angeles Family direct to Jack Dragna. After Dragna died in 1956, he and Jimmy Fratianno (actually he transferred later after he got out of prison) both transferred to the Chicago Family. However, Los Angeles and Chicago closely worked together when Dragna was the boss. They might have backed Dragna to take over from Joe Ardizzone in 1931, but that's speculation. So Roselli, up until 1956, was in California and Las Vegas helping the interests of the Los Angeles Family and Chicago, but his membership and loyalty was to Dragna. When he transferred he appears to have been direct to Sam Giancana. Frank Desimone, Dragna's successor, claimed that Roselli's and Fratianno's transfer to Chicago wasn't valid, but Roselli's was supported by Giancana. Nobody could verify Fratianno's transfer, so Desimone claimed he was still part of Los Angeles and insubordinate. Anyway, the point is, the Outfit's role in Las Vegas was more complicated and nuanced than Roemer's narrative.

Thanks for clearing that up regarding Caifano's movement. As you said, things were quite complicated back then and looks like there were more than few so-called representatives in Vegas, since Caifano at the same time lurked around Chicago, meaning there was no order of reprsentatives like first Roselli, second Caifano etc...

I completely agree with you regarding Roselli's stature and Roemer's misinterpretation but since you mentioned the Fischettis, I remember reading that they together with Roselli and another LA member John Canzoneri very closely operated in Vegas.

Also, here's one small and interesting info regarding Roselli's early connection to Ricca...

https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?do ... arch=ricca

[Sam22]

Caifano was spending time in California and Nevada as early as 1953, when he took part in killing Russian Louie Strauss. He was arrested in Beverly Hills two years later. He was regularly seen on the North Side in the 1950s, where he had interests under Battaglia. So he commuted back and forth between the West Coast and Chicago. Milwaukee Phil also did a lot of back and forth between California/Nevada and Chicago.

I think we need to get rid of the narrative created by Bill Roemer that Roselli was Chicago's man in Vegas, then Caifano, then Spilotro. It wasn't a smooth transition like that, plus there were others involved. Sam Carlisi and Joey Lombardo also traveled between California/Nevada and Chicago, in addition to a lot of other guys like Tony Pinelli, who lived in Sierra Madre, California, but never left the Outfit. I think the Fischetti brothers also spent time in Vegas.

Roemer counts Roselli as always being a Chicago guy, but he was part of the Los Angeles Family direct to Jack Dragna. After Dragna died in 1956, he and Jimmy Fratianno (actually he transferred later after he got out of prison) both transferred to the Chicago Family. However, Los Angeles and Chicago closely worked together when Dragna was the boss. They might have backed Dragna to take over from Joe Ardizzone in 1931, but that's speculation. So Roselli, up until 1956, was in California and Las Vegas helping the interests of the Los Angeles Family and Chicago, but his membership and loyalty was to Dragna. When he transferred he appears to have been direct to Sam Giancana. Frank Desimone, Dragna's successor, claimed that Roselli's and Fratianno's transfer to Chicago wasn't valid, but Roselli's was supported by Giancana. Nobody could verify Fratianno's transfer, so Desimone claimed he was still part of Los Angeles and insubordinate. Anyway, the point is, the Outfit's role in Las Vegas was more complicated and nuanced than Roemer's narrative.

Thanks for clearing that up regarding Caifano's movement. As you said, things were quite complicated back then and looks like there were more than few so-called representatives in Vegas, since Caifano at the same time lurked around Chicago, meaning there was no order of reprsentatives like first Roselli, second Caifano etc...

I completely agree with you regarding Roselli's stature and Roemer's misinterpretation but since you mentioned the Fischettis, I remember reading that they together with Roselli and another LA member John Canzoneri very closely operated in Vegas.

Also, here's one small and interesting info regarding Roselli's early connection to Ricca...

https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?do ... arch=ricca

Great info and find about Roselli. I got he impression the informant was bomp but then later it seems to mention the informant and bomp. Being there or did I mis read it ?

[Villain]

Caifano was spending time in California and Nevada as early as 1953, when he took part in killing Russian Louie Strauss. He was arrested in Beverly Hills two years later. He was regularly seen on the North Side in the 1950s, where he had interests under Battaglia. So he commuted back and forth between the West Coast and Chicago. Milwaukee Phil also did a lot of back and forth between California/Nevada and Chicago.

I think we need to get rid of the narrative created by Bill Roemer that Roselli was Chicago's man in Vegas, then Caifano, then Spilotro. It wasn't a smooth transition like that, plus there were others involved. Sam Carlisi and Joey Lombardo also traveled between California/Nevada and Chicago, in addition to a lot of other guys like Tony Pinelli, who lived in Sierra Madre, California, but never left the Outfit. I think the Fischetti brothers also spent time in Vegas.

Roemer counts Roselli as always being a Chicago guy, but he was part of the Los Angeles Family direct to Jack Dragna. After Dragna died in 1956, he and Jimmy Fratianno (actually he transferred later after he got out of prison) both transferred to the Chicago Family. However, Los Angeles and Chicago closely worked together when Dragna was the boss. They might have backed Dragna to take over from Joe Ardizzone in 1931, but that's speculation. So Roselli, up until 1956, was in California and Las Vegas helping the interests of the Los Angeles Family and Chicago, but his membership and loyalty was to Dragna. When he transferred he appears to have been direct to Sam Giancana. Frank Desimone, Dragna's successor, claimed that Roselli's and Fratianno's transfer to Chicago wasn't valid, but Roselli's was supported by Giancana. Nobody could verify Fratianno's transfer, so Desimone claimed he was still part of Los Angeles and insubordinate. Anyway, the point is, the Outfit's role in Las Vegas was more complicated and nuanced than Roemer's narrative.

Thanks for clearing that up regarding Caifano's movement. As you said, things were quite complicated back then and looks like there were more than few so-called representatives in Vegas, since Caifano at the same time lurked around Chicago, meaning there was no order of reprsentatives like first Roselli, second Caifano etc...

I completely agree with you regarding Roselli's stature and Roemer's misinterpretation but since you mentioned the Fischettis, I remember reading that they together with Roselli and another LA member John Canzoneri very closely operated in Vegas.

Also, here's one small and interesting info regarding Roselli's early connection to Ricca...

https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?do ... arch=ricca

Great info and find about Roselli. I got he impression the informant was bomp but then later it seems to mention the informant and bomp. Being there or did I mis read it ?

If you're talking about the same document, I believe that the so-called informant was Roselli himself

[Sam22]

You think so ? I will read it again. I was thinking it was possibly Frattiano for a min. But I was thinking he was in jail at the time.
Also, thank you for the great link before. 150 some pages of Hump and the boys. Great stuff. To me Hump may be the most interesting member out of all the outfit guys.

[Villain]

To me Hump may be the most interesting member out of all the outfit guys.

I totally agree with you. If you read all of Humphreys, Alexs, Accardos and Riccas tapped convos you'll might notice that when these guys talk, they are usually schooling other members and talk about rules and how some of the situations should be or should've been solved. Although you can also see that both Accardo or Alex sometimes entered in violent convos with other members, mostly Alex. I'll never forget the article in which Accardo gave an "honest" reply to Chicago reporter Sandy Smith by saying "Fuck you"

[Sam22]

To me Hump may be the most interesting member out of all the outfit guys.

I totally agree with you. If you read all of Humphreys, Alexs, Accardos and Riccas tapped convos you'll might notice that when these guys talk, they are usually schooling other members and talk about rules and how some of the situations should be or should've been solved. Although you can also see that both Accardo or Alex sometimes entered in violent convos with other members, mostly Alex. I'll never forget the article in which Accardo gave an "honest" reply to Chicago reporter Sandy Smith by saying "Fuck you"

I am still working my way through the 156 page mf document. Did you ever see any docs where they actually discuss a murder ? Many hits took place during the time the FBI had them bugged in early 60's. I have never seen any but I doubt I have read as many of those transcripts as you,snakes or Antillar

[Villain]

Did you ever see any docs where they actually discuss a murder ?

You can see Humphreys discussing the Red Barker and Jack McGurn killings and who was involved tec. and you also might find one conversation between Accardo and Alex talking about giving away "contracts". I also believe you can find other murder conversations between other members...in addition, when you research the mary ferrell site you should type in alex accardo or ferraro alex or cerone yaras and then you might find many other convos

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... ras_cerone

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... ras_cerone

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... rraro_alex