The Cicale Files

[Rocco]

I think if Massimo's full FBI debriefing became available it would clear all this up. Maybe someday it will? Right now all we really have is what was available and released from the trials and allot of half truths by Cicale and any future info from informants with agendas etc

[SonnyBlackstein]

Because they weren't trying to drive home the argument that Montreal eclipsed New York. I'm looking at the sources used and almost none of them would point to any break off, this appears to have been their educated conclusion from the facts or they took some creative leaps in emphasizing their platform. Either way, there is no 6th Family.

For what his word is worth (little to this poster) Cicale was answering questions on Cosa Nostra News recently:
Concerning the Rizzutos:
DC: "Actually they separated when Vito came home and when Sal the iron work was killed.
So, yes I would have to say they are now the sixth family... WITH BALL....."
DC: "I would have to say they broke off"
Poster: "That was only 4 years ago, though. What about before? Some estimations say that Rizzuto's broke over 10-15 years ago."
DC: "How if Vito was still sending down money to the Bonanno family up until 2006.

So we can dispute about the time and depth of separation but even Cicale states they are (as of 06 according to him) an independant 'family'.

http://www.cosanostranews.com/2015/01/m ... icale.html

[Pogo The Clown]

Cicale flipped in 2005 so how would he know what was going on in 2006 and 2011?


Pogo

[B.]

This is a good topic to return to. As I've mentioned before, Montreal seems to bring out sensitive reactions in some people and it's nice to see very little of that here.

Here are some general thoughts that I imagine most can agree with:

1. All individuals within the Montreal "organization" (crew, group, family, whatever you want to call it) who were made from 1954 through 1999 were initiated as members of the Bonanno family. To my knowledge, there is no known precedent in the modern N.American mob where a crew split off and disregarded their formal affiliation. That doesn't mean that it didn't happen, but we have no proof that it did. After Sciascia's hit, Rizzuto may have been upset, but he and the Montreal crew still showed formal respect for Vitale when he was in town.There also wasn't/isn't just one faction in Montreal and it's possible or even likely that some members distanced themselves from the formal Bonanno affiliation while others did not, which may have been exploited by Montagna.

2. Before his death, Joe Bravo, of Spanish heritage, claimed that he and Desjardins, a French-Canadian, were "made" in some form by Vito Rizzuto. This would put this initiation at 2004 or before and we can interpret this several different ways:

a) Vito inducted two non-Italians into the Montreal mafia, whether it be independent or still a crew of the Bonannos.
b) Vito created a separate criminal organization unaffiliated with Cosa Nostra where non-Italians are allowed membership.
c) Vito was just jerking them off and told them something like, "You're pretty much a made guy... in my opinion."
d) Joe Bravo is a lying career criminal who will say anything to make himself seem more important.

I go with the last one.

3. George Sciascia, a member of the Bonanno family, became a caporegime as early as 1981 (but possibly later) and continued in this capacity until his murder in 1999. He was from the same small town in Sicily as a dominant faction in Montreal and he was a highly-respected international mob figure. Now, this Cicale testimony is the first I've ever seen Sciascia's crew affiliation challenged. While some of Vitale's testimony is ambiguous, he very clearly recounted a meeting with Vito Rizzuto in Canada where he asked Rizzuto to take over as captain of the deceased Sciascia's crew. This isn't some random aside, but the whole point of the conversation. I trust Vitale 100% on this particular issue.

Sciascia's position could have been similar to the theories I've made about the DeCavalcante family's formation, where town of origin and kinship likely played a larger role than geography when it came to leadership, though the difference here is that they were only a crew through 1999, not a family. Sciascia maintained a close relationship with family, close friends, and business associates in Canada even though his access was limited. All indications suggest that he didn't lord himself over the Montreal crew, but acted as their representative. It's bizarre to me that some people have suggested over the years that he was somehow inferior in rank to the Rizzutos when everything paints him as a first among equals.

I do believe that Sciascia was the official capo of Montreal, but if Cicale is actually right, it may be a situation similar to the Bonannos in the mid-1960's. Vic Cotroni was the official capo in Montreal, but Frank Labruzzo who had his own crew in NY represented Cotroni in the states. If Sciascia had a separate crew in NY, maybe he had a similar arrangement with Montreal. The difference here though is Sciascia was so closely tied to Montreal, whereas Labruzzo was not.

4. The Montreal organization under Cotroni, a well-respected international crime group that made huge sums of money in the drug business, wasn't some small-time group in comparison to the Rizzuto era. The Rizzutos might have tweaked some things and modernized the group, but there's no reason to think they were any bigger than the Cotronis. The Cotronis, despite their money and importance, remained loyal to the Bonannos even through the Bonanno war, when they could easily have broken off. Of course, the New York families were much more influential then so it's a bit different to what happened with Massino. My point, though, is that the Rizzutos were not leaps and bounds beyond the Cotronis, though it seems people have tried to fit that into the narrative for whatever reason.

[B.]

Another question...

Who did Sciascia report to before 1981? If Vito DeFilippo was a captain in the late 1970's, it's possible there was some connection there given DeFilippo's longstanding ties to Montreal, as well as the fact that he acted as somewhat of a representative to them in the US in earlier times.

[Angelo Santino]

This is a good topic to return to. As I've mentioned before, Montreal seems to bring out sensitive reactions in some people and it's nice to see very little of that here.

Here are some general thoughts that I imagine most can agree with:

1. All individuals within the Montreal "organization" (crew, group, family, whatever you want to call it) who were made from 1954 through 1999 were initiated as members of the Bonanno family. To my knowledge, there is no known precedent in the modern N.American mob where a crew split off and disregarded their formal affiliation. That doesn't mean that it didn't happen, but we have no proof that it did. After Sciascia's hit, Rizzuto may have been upset, but he and the Montreal crew still showed formal respect for Vitale when he was in town.There also wasn't/isn't just one faction in Montreal and it's possible or even likely that some members distanced themselves from the formal Bonanno affiliation while others did not, which may have been exploited by Montagna.

2. Before his death, Joe Bravo, of Spanish heritage, claimed that he and Desjardins, a French-Canadian, were "made" in some form by Vito Rizzuto. This would put this initiation at 2004 or before and we can interpret this several different ways:

a) Vito inducted two non-Italians into the Montreal mafia, whether it be independent or still a crew of the Bonannos.
b) Vito created a separate criminal organization unaffiliated with Cosa Nostra where non-Italians are allowed membership.
c) Vito was just jerking them off and told them something like, "You're pretty much a made guy... in my opinion."
d) Joe Bravo is a lying career criminal who will say anything to make himself seem more important.

I go with the last one.

3. George Sciascia, a member of the Bonanno family, became a caporegime as early as 1981 (but possibly later) and continued in this capacity until his murder in 1999. He was from the same small town in Sicily as a dominant faction in Montreal and he was a highly-respected international mob figure. Now, this Cicale testimony is the first I've ever seen Sciascia's crew affiliation challenged. While some of Vitale's testimony is ambiguous, he very clearly recounted a meeting with Vito Rizzuto in Canada where he asked Rizzuto to take over as captain of the deceased Sciascia's crew. This isn't some random aside, but the whole point of the conversation. I trust Vitale 100% on this particular issue.

Sciascia's position could have been similar to the theories I've made about the DeCavalcante family's formation, where town of origin and kinship likely played a larger role than geography when it came to leadership, though the difference here is that they were only a crew through 1999, not a family. Sciascia maintained a close relationship with family, close friends, and business associates in Canada even though his access was limited. All indications suggest that he didn't lord himself over the Montreal crew, but acted as their representative. It's bizarre to me that some people have suggested over the years that he was somehow inferior in rank to the Rizzutos when everything paints him as a first among equals.

I do believe that Sciascia was the official capo of Montreal, but if Cicale is actually right, it may be a situation similar to the Bonannos in the mid-1960's. Vic Cotroni was the official capo in Montreal, but Frank Labruzzo who had his own crew in NY represented Cotroni in the states. If Sciascia had a separate crew in NY, maybe he had a similar arrangement with Montreal. The difference here though is Sciascia was so closely tied to Montreal, whereas Labruzzo was not.

4. The Montreal organization under Cotroni, a well-respected international crime group that made huge sums of money in the drug business, wasn't some small-time group in comparison to the Rizzuto era. The Rizzutos might have tweaked some things and modernized the group, but there's no reason to think they were any bigger than the Cotronis. The Cotronis, despite their money and importance, remained loyal to the Bonannos even through the Bonanno war, when they could easily have broken off. Of course, the New York families were much more influential then so it's a bit different to what happened with Massino. My point, though, is that the Rizzutos were not leaps and bounds beyond the Cotronis, though it seems people have tried to fit that into the narrative for whatever reason.

And you're not English? I read that I smell the blood of an Englishman... Your posts give me a broner, not an total erection just a minor surge of turgidity. I wish I had a hold on the King's English as good as you.

There's debate on the Cotroni's affiliation. I could be wrong and if I am hopefully someone who knows more can shoot me down, but given that they were in Canada for 30 plus years, they were by that point a Italian-Canadian gang with Calabresi origin, no current 'ndrangheta affiliation which allowed them to enter the Bonannos at a time when The Five Families were Greek Gods of the underworld.. If I'm wrong open up with both guns, I'll consider it a learning curve. But in the 1900's there was connection with Mafiosi in NY with Toronto and Montreal, so the roots go back. And Maranzano spent time in Montreal I believe before coming stateside.

[B.]

Man, I'm going to have to start pretending to be English just for you, but my posts will be twice as long if I have to start adding random u's after my o's.

I'm not sure about the Cotroni group before the 1950's, but there's no real debate over the fact that from the time Galante went there in the 1950's until Sciascia's death they were a Bonanno crew, though a very non-traditional one.

The Maranzano thing still interests me... Montreal is where his family apparently went after his death, too. Do you know what all of his kids were named? I believe one son was Domenico. There is a "Teddi" Maranzano listed with an address in Wappinger Falls. I don't believe it's the same address as the infamous "colonial style" home that Salvatore owned, but it still can't be a coincidence. The name Teddi is also curious to me... the "i" makes it look like a woman's name, but it also makes me think of "Tuddi" or "Turi".

[joeycigars]

This is a good topic to return to. As I've mentioned before, Montreal seems to bring out sensitive reactions in some people and it's nice to see very little of that here.

"sensitive reactions " ... the good ole days

Poster: "That was only 4 years ago, though. What about before? Some estimations say that Rizzuto's broke over 10-15 years ago."
DC: "How if Vito was still sending down money to the Bonanno family up until 2006.

So we can dispute about the time and depth of separation but even Cicale states they are (as of 06 according to him) an independant 'family'.

Did the Canadian Bonnanos end in 2006 according to Cicale or 2011 with the Desjardins hit on Sal Montagna...Even if the Rizzutos wernt kicking up at that point they still had the flag VIA VITO the rules apply here IMO ... That leaves a 4-5 year window of what happened to the NY connection , Was the Montagna hit sanctioned ...Who sanctioned the hit? Was it Vito and did Vito get double crossed ? Or was it Renegade all the way for the attempt on Desjardins life ? And the Nick JR hit ...Why is Tony Magi still walking around ? Who is protecting Magi ? Did some one kill Nick JR just to get to the golden goose Magi or was it a Magi set up to get away from Nick ? Vito bought condos from Magi for 20 cents each and sold them for 1.7 million , What was going on ? A bridge to nowhere..Pun intended

little segway .....
Speaking of the bridge ...
The huge suspension bridge would link the territories of Italy's two biggest crime syndicates – Cosa Nostra and 'Ndrangheta. Critics predict the project would represent the biggest payday in the history of Italian organised crime, which has a hand in most of the public works contracts in southern Italy.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 17312.html

La Presse journalists Andre Noel and Andre Cedilot, says sign of the Rizzuto's family's reach were their plans to bankroll a $7-billion project to build a suspension bridge between their native Sicily and the Italian mainland. The bridge was never built, but had the project gone ahead, it would have likely been the largest money-laundering operation ever undertaken by the Mafia.


http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2 ... 21826.html

Vito was wanted in Italy on fraud charges but never extradited....The money that was attempted to launder was more than $600 million in drug money ...What happened to the money ?
http://www.mafia-news.com/italian-arres ... eal-mafia/


There are a lot more unanswered questions about the Rizzutos unfinished business and war ....Absolutely one of the greatest Mafia Family sagas of all time, It is still going which is unbelievable ....

[HairyKnuckles]

Man, I'm going to have to start pretending to be English just for you, but my posts will be twice as long if I have to start adding random u's after my o's.

I'm not sure about the Cotroni group before the 1950's, but there's no real debate over the fact that from the time Galante went there in the 1950's until Sciascia's death they were a Bonanno crew, though a very non-traditional one.

The Maranzano thing still interests me... Montreal is where his family apparently went after his death, too. Do you know what all of his kids were named? I believe one son was Domenico. There is a "Teddi" Maranzano listed with an address in Wappinger Falls. I don't believe it's the same address as the infamous "colonial style" home that Salvatore owned, but it still can't be a coincidence. The name Teddi is also curious to me... the "i" makes it look like a woman's name, but it also makes me think of "Tuddi" or "Turi".

I understand Maranzano had four children; Domenico, Mariano, Antonia and Angelo.

[Lupara]

Like I said before, with this subject I consider myself a centrist who leans more towards the conservative side, meaning that I don't believe the Rizzutos declared themselves indepedent and, even though they became quite powerful, they remained subjects of the Bonanno family. However, I do believe that the Rizzutos were bigger than the Cotronis given the fact that they were not only operating in Montreal, but in Venezuela and Italy as well and being as close as family with the Cuntrera-Caruanas. Even though being connected to the Corsican drug traffickers, under Cotroni Montreal was a localized organization that was much more under the Bonanno thumb than during the Rizzuto era. Due to the chaos of the 1980s, with the Bonannos crippled by internal fueding and the Donnie Brasco affair, the Rizzutos were given a free hand. This continued in the 1990s, with only Sciascia having to report to Massino, and was spearheaded in the 2000s after Sciascia was killed and the Bonanno hierarchy was sent to prison.

[B.]

Like I said before, with this subject I consider myself a centrist who leans more towards the conservative side, meaning that I don't believe the Rizzutos declared themselves indepedent and, even though they became quite powerful, they remained subjects of the Bonanno family. However, I do believe that the Rizzutos were bigger than the Cotronis given the fact that they were not only operating in Montreal, but in Venezuela and Italy as well and being as close as family with the Cuntrera-Caruanas. Even though being connected to the Corsican drug traffickers, under Cotroni Montreal was a localized organization that was much more under the Bonanno thumb than during the Rizzuto era. Due to the chaos of the 1980s, with the Bonannos crippled by internal fueding and the Donnie Brasco affair, the Rizzutos were given a free hand. This continued in the 1990s, with only Sciascia having to report to Massino, and was spearheaded in the 2000s after Sciascia was killed and the Bonanno hierarchy was sent to prison.

Those are great points and you very well could be right about the Rizzutos being larger in certain ways, particular when it came to finances. The Cotronis' narcotics empire seemed to be more expansive within mob circles, as I believe their network stretched to different organization in the US as well as internationally. There is probably no quantifiable way to compare them, but my real point is just that the Cotronis were a powerful empire in their own right.

[Lupara]

Like I said before, with this subject I consider myself a centrist who leans more towards the conservative side, meaning that I don't believe the Rizzutos declared themselves indepedent and, even though they became quite powerful, they remained subjects of the Bonanno family. However, I do believe that the Rizzutos were bigger than the Cotronis given the fact that they were not only operating in Montreal, but in Venezuela and Italy as well and being as close as family with the Cuntrera-Caruanas. Even though being connected to the Corsican drug traffickers, under Cotroni Montreal was a localized organization that was much more under the Bonanno thumb than during the Rizzuto era. Due to the chaos of the 1980s, with the Bonannos crippled by internal fueding and the Donnie Brasco affair, the Rizzutos were given a free hand. This continued in the 1990s, with only Sciascia having to report to Massino, and was spearheaded in the 2000s after Sciascia was killed and the Bonanno hierarchy was sent to prison.

Those are great points and you very well could be right about the Rizzutos being larger in certain ways, particular when it came to finances. The Cotronis' narcotics empire seemed to be more expansive within mob circles, as I believe their network stretched to different organization in the US as well as internationally. There is probably no quantifiable way to compare them, but my real point is just that the Cotronis were a powerful empire in their own right.

I think that the Cotronis were at their height during the 1960s, when the mob's number one supplier of heroin were the French-Corsican gangs, that distributed the drugs through the port of Montreal into the United States. I believe both of Vic's brothers were in the drug business, but especially Frank was in it knee-deep pretty much his entire life, which is also why he was in jail all the time. I think it was Frank who did business with American mobsters from various families. We'll have to look into that further. However, Cotroni's protégé and would-be successor Paolo Violi was allegedly against dealing in narcotics. In one of the books, Sixth Family or Mafia Inc. or both, it is descibred how Violi advised one of his underlings not to deal in drugs but rob instead. So if the Cotronis were into international drug trafficking, I'm wondering why Vic chose someone as his successor who was apparantly against it. The history of organized crime in general teaches us that true power comes with drug trafficking, because with all the money it generates comes power and influence. The Rizzutos were initially heavily involved in international drug trafficking which is why they were in a position to take over in the first place. Cotroni and Violi's connections simply couldn't match those of Nick Rizzuto and that is what made the difference imo. It is also what kept Nick alive at the time.

Personally I think that when it comes to describing the Rizzutos' business empire the authors of the Sixth Family did a fine job.

[Rocco]

Do you guys think the Rizzuto's were able to bypass the Mexican Cartels with Nick and Vito's south american connections? You would think they utilized that route the most vs Afgan poppy to turkey to sicily to Montreal route. One would think smuggling out of south america is easier then Sicily ..etc

[Lupara]

Do you guys think the Rizzuto's were able to bypass the Mexican Cartels with Nick and Vito's south american connections? You would think they utilized that route the most vs Afgan poppy to turkey to sicily to Montreal route. One would think smuggling out of south america is easier then Sicily ..etc

I believe that they smuggled the drugs through Venezuela and the Caribbean. The Cuntrera-Caruanas also used Aruba as a base, which is part of the Dutch Antilles. Back in the days the Mexicans were overshadowed by the Colombians. The Colombians also used the same route through the Caribbean to smuggle drugs into the United States.

[Mukremin]

Do you guys think the Rizzuto's were able to bypass the Mexican Cartels with Nick and Vito's south american connections? You would think they utilized that route the most vs Afgan poppy to turkey to sicily to Montreal route. One would think smuggling out of south america is easier then Sicily ..etc

I believe that they smuggled the drugs through Venezuela and the Caribbean. The Cuntrera-Caruanas also used Aruba as a base, which is part of the Dutch Antilles. Back in the days the Mexicans were overshadowed by the Colombians. The Colombians also used the same route through the Caribbean to smuggle drugs into the United States.

Whats the situation on Aruba now? In Mafia Inc they claim it was almost in full control of the Cuntrera-Caruanas, is that over now? The Dutch government is seeking to solve the corruption and organized crime issues there, but the islands wont let Holland interfere.