The Cicale Files

[Lupara]

I went through the ebook of the Sixth Family for Vitale's statement and this is what he said, according to the authors:

“I think the last time I was in their presence when they brought money down was approximately ’98, ’99,” Vitale said of the Montreal gangsters. He said Montreal might have continued with the traditional tribute arrangement but he had no evidence of this and could not be sure.

Vitale's reliability is questionable as well. He's made contradictory statements on the Montreal crew. According to JD Vitale supposedly said that Montreal had 27 made members, while according to the Sixth Family Vitale was told by Vito that there were 19 made members, which correlates with the 20 made member size of that crew minus Gerlando Sciascia.

However, while going through the Sixth Family I stumbled on information that I had previously overlooked, that according to the FBI Sciascia was named a capo by 1981. Does this mean that Cotroni had stepped down or was demoted in favor of Sciascia, or that Sciascia was named a capo in New York and only acted as an intermediary between Montreal and New York?

[Angelo Santino]

I went through the ebook of the Sixth Family for Vitale's statement and this is what he said, according to the authors:

“I think the last time I was in their presence when they brought money down was approximately ’98, ’99,” Vitale said of the Montreal gangsters. He said Montreal might have continued with the traditional tribute arrangement but he had no evidence of this and could not be sure.

Vitale's reliability is questionable as well. He's made contradictory statements on the Montreal crew. According to JD Vitale supposedly said that Montreal had 27 made members, while according to the Sixth Family Vitale was told by Vito that there were 19 made members, which correlates with the 20 made member size of that crew minus Gerlando Sciascia.

However, while going through the Sixth Family I stumbled on information that I had previously overlooked, that according to the FBI Sciascia was named a capo by 1981. Does this mean that Cotroni had stepped down or was demoted in favor of Sciascia, or that Sciascia was named a capo in New York and only acted as an intermediary between Montreal and New York?

I was wondering myself, it doesn't make sense that Sciascia was Montreal capo, Sciascia had his own guys (crew?) in NYC. Am I missing something?

[toto]

Probably Cotroni was overall boss but they put Sciascia as kind of messenger between Montreal and New York. This way they could try to keep everybody happy - sicilian and calabrian by saying Cotroni is boss of Montreal but he must go through Sciascia to get to the boss or something like that.

Also, Vitale is definitely not reliable on the issue of Montreal. Not because he's telling lies but because he was on the shelf and ignored by Massino for few years before he flipped. So things could have changed or stayed the same and he does not know about it. In fact the quote from Lupara is clear and Vitale says that he doesn't know.

Cicale could know some things because he seems very close to Basciano and Basciano had dealings with Montreal since at least 1980s. I also remember something about Rizzuto sending message to Massino if Basciano comes in Montreal again we will kill him. Probably it is related to drug trafficking.

[Lupara]

I also remember something about Rizzuto sending message to Massino if Basciano comes in Montreal again we will kill him. Probably it is related to drug trafficking.

That would've been a very dangerous statement for Rizzuto to make considering that Basciano was a Massino crony. Sciascia was killed for less so I doubt he really said that. Vito was a diplomat, not someone who made threats. In the end all these guys worked together and other Bonannos from New York were always welcomed in Montreal.

[Angelo Santino]

Despite all the different opinions, everyone's keeping it civil, how a thread conversation should me. Great informed group with interesting takes. Great work, gentlemen.

[Lupara]

Even though opinions differ, we should give each other credit for trying to figure this out. There is so much left in the dark, many discrepancies and contradictory information, every time something new comes out it only shows how little we know. And that applies to the history of the Mafia in general. However, there is someone available to give an authoritative answer, and that is Joe Massino. I'm not sure what agenda he would still have with Canada. After all, he had already put Rizzuto in jail.

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[Rocco]

I also remember something about Rizzuto sending message to Massino if Basciano comes in Montreal again we will kill him. Probably it is related to drug trafficking.

That would've been a very dangerous statement for Rizzuto to make considering that Basciano was a Massino crony. Sciascia was killed for less so I doubt he really said that. Vito was a diplomat, not someone who made threats. In the end all these guys worked together and other Bonannos from New York were always welcomed in Montreal.

Basciano was a MAssino Crony..? hardly. Massino did not like Basciano and avoided him. I would think Massino's info on Montreal is much more reliable then Cicale. Cicale is looking to sell a story. Massino is not....as of yet. lol That statement is possible since Basciano was heavly involved in Drug Trafficking. He was quiet the heavy Heroin dealer at one point. I think I read that Massino sent Vitale to Montreal after Sciascia was hit to feel out Vito and offer him the Capo position...which he turned down.

[Wiseguy]

Finally some sort of confirmation of what I've pretty much always believed. Any reason to think this guy could have an agenda concerning Canada? This one will be hard to swallow for the Rizzuto hegemonists.

Yup. And we've already seen it in this thread. I knew when I made the original post that there would be many who couldn't believe the lowly Bonannos, who they mistakenly look at as little more than a street gang by this point, could give orders to the King of Canada.

I went through the ebook of the Sixth Family for Vitale's statement and this is what he said, according to the authors:

“I think the last time I was in their presence when they brought money down was approximately ’98, ’99,” Vitale said of the Montreal gangsters. He said Montreal might have continued with the traditional tribute arrangement but he had no evidence of this and could not be sure.

Vitale's reliability is questionable as well. He's made contradictory statements on the Montreal crew. According to JD Vitale supposedly said that Montreal had 27 made members, while according to the Sixth Family Vitale was told by Vito that there were 19 made members, which correlates with the 20 made member size of that crew minus Gerlando Sciascia.

However, while going through the Sixth Family I stumbled on information that I had previously overlooked, that according to the FBI Sciascia was named a capo by 1981. Does this mean that Cotroni had stepped down or was demoted in favor of Sciascia, or that Sciascia was named a capo in New York and only acted as an intermediary between Montreal and New York?

So Vitale wasn't sure about it. That certainly doesn't "shit all over" or contradict what Cicale said.

As for Sciascia, Cicale made it seem that it was the latter - i.e. he was a New York-based captain and only acted as an intermediary between Montreal and New York.

I also remember something about Rizzuto sending message to Massino if Basciano comes in Montreal again we will kill him. Probably it is related to drug trafficking.

Where did you read that? According to Cicale, Basciano had a good relationship with Rizzuto.

[toto]

Wiseguy, probably on the same forums where most people said there is powerful sixth family and so on.

[Lupara]

As for Sciascia, Cicale made it seem that it was the latter - i.e. he was a New York-based captain and only acted as an intermediary between Montreal and New York..

Yet I wonder why Vitale went to Montreal to name Rizzuto the new capo after Sciascia was killed. That either means that they were seeking to replace Sciascia or that Montreal never had an official capo after Cotroni died. I'm inclined to think that Nick Rizzuto became the new capo in the early-mid 1980s and perhaps retired at some point in the 1990s and basically handed over the title to Vito, or did so when he was imprisoned in Venezuela. That would make sense the most. I've always found it a bit odd that someone who was based in New York was named the capo of another city. In the mid 1990s Sciascia was not even allowed by Canadian authorities to enter the country anymore.

Also, the Sixth Family states that Baldo Amato (who you guys have said was under Sciascia) was part of Louis Ha-Ha's crew, who in turn had taken over Bonventre's crew, which Baldo was part of originally.

[Angelo Santino]

As for Sciascia, Cicale made it seem that it was the latter - i.e. he was a New York-based captain and only acted as an intermediary between Montreal and New York..

Yet I wonder why Vitale went to Montreal to name Rizzuto the new capo after Sciascia was killed. That either means that they were seeking to replace Sciascia or that Montreal never had an official capo after Cotroni died. I'm inclined to think that Nick Rizzuto became the new capo in the early-mid 1980s and perhaps retired at some point in the 1990s and basically handed over the title to Vito, or did so when he was imprisoned in Venezuela. That would make sense the most. I've always found it a bit odd that someone who was based in New York was named the capo of another city. In the mid 1990s Sciascia was not even allowed by Canadian authorities to enter the country anymore.

Also, the Sixth Family states that Baldo Amato (who you guys have said was under Sciascia) was part of Louis Ha-Ha's crew, who in turn had taken over Bonventre's crew, which Baldo was part of originally.

In T6F, it stated that Rizzuto was more or less in charge after Viola died. It never labeled him offical captain or explained how leadership went from him to Sciascia, which doesn't make any sense. And going with the LaMothe narrative, if the Rizzuto's were so Godfather-esque, Nick's logical successor would have been Vito.

In Unfinished Business, Joe Pistone labeled Nick Ruzzuto capo after Galante was killed.

As much as I respect the work that went into T6F, I think alot of their conclusions need to be reevaluated. In the end it stated that the Rizzuto's had 3 large super cells which totaled 90 people I believe. Where the hell were they when the shit was flying? This is where relying solely on official documents and external resources has its shortcomings, the authors had no insiders and as a result their entire thesis is faulty despite all best efforts.

[joeycigars]

As much as I respect the work that went into T6F, I think alot of their conclusions need to be reevaluated. In the end it stated that the Rizzuto's had 3 large super cells which totaled 90 people I believe. Where the hell were they when the shit was flying? This is where relying solely on official documents and external resources has its shortcomings, the authors had no insiders and as a result their entire thesis is faulty despite all best efforts.

Lamothe,Humphreys 90 men super cells coincide with the 90 arrested in Project Colisée,I dont know if this is coincidence or the # they used .Which would mean every super cell guy was arrested which wasnt the case ,
I think your on the money C.C . T6F conclusions need to be reevaluated its not way off but needs a second look from new eyes , Its a great starting place though

[Lupara]

In the end it stated that the Rizzuto's had 3 large super cells which totaled 90 people I believe. Where the hell were they when the shit was flying? This is where relying solely on official documents and external resources has its shortcomings, the authors had no insiders and as a result their entire thesis is faulty despite all best efforts.

Most of their guys were in prison at the time. And even the guys who remained on the streets couldn't do much about it just as Paolo Violi's guys couldn't do anything about his murder. It was all sanctioned from the top. I think when Vito Rizzuto returned to Canada, the guys in New York knew that he was the only one left to restore order and so they gave him permission to do what he had to do. There was hardly a war, it were mostly one-sided attacks, first by the anti-Rizzuto forces, and when that failed, support went back to the Rizzuto loyalists. The only wars were small skirmishes between Arcadi's group and Giuseppe De Vito's and between Montagna and Desjardins.

[Angelo Santino]

In the end it stated that the Rizzuto's had 3 large super cells which totaled 90 people I believe. Where the hell were they when the shit was flying? This is where relying solely on official documents and external resources has its shortcomings, the authors had no insiders and as a result their entire thesis is faulty despite all best efforts.

Most of their guys were in prison at the time. And even the guys who remained on the streets couldn't do much about it just as Paolo Violi's guys couldn't do anything about his murder. It was all sanctioned from the top. I think when Vito Rizzuto returned to Canada, the guys in New York knew that he was the only one left to restore order and so they gave him permission to do what he had to do. There was hardly a war, it were mostly one-sided attacks, first by the anti-Rizzuto forces, and when that failed, support went back to the Rizzuto loyalists. The only wars were small skirmishes between Arcadi's group and Giuseppe De Vito's and between Montagna and Desjardins.

Even so, I suspected the number was too extreme, even back when I believed that Montreal broke off from the Bonannos. I suspected their were relying too much on "guilt by association."

But, this "6th Family" shit, needs to be put to rest. It's as legitimate as referring to the Gallo crew as that. If the Rizzutos did indeed break off to become independent, they lasted 2 years.

LaMothe's book is good for dates, events, sources. But the overall narration IE "The Rizzutos began to distance themselves from NY because the Bonannos became a liability. Rizzuto turning down capo would be insane to most of NY's scraping wiseguys who would kill for the opportunity. But Vito, with his eyes on the big picture and his mandingo masculine part in his pants, was far more formidable than Massino. While the Bonannos called NYC their turf, Vito and his 6th Family claim the entire globe..." I'm paraphrasing here.

[Angelo Santino]

And I'll say it again, all this shit up in Canada, can be attributed to Joe Bonanno. His moves in life are still affecting OC long after his death.

Accardo, Gambino, Gotti, no one has left a lasting imprint on modern OC like Joe Bananas to the point that wars are being fault over what he created 50 years later.