The Cicale Files

[Angelo Santino]

There's one other point to remember - anybody who wants to operate in New York has to have an okay from New York families. By anyone I mean, Sicilian, Calabrian families etc. This is why Rizzuto becomes nobody if he breaks away but he has a lot of power if he is the bridge to New York. This is why John Gambino is so important now because he can make introductions and smooth things over with other families and he has enough power and clout in his own family.

The whole rebel scenario is well known in Italy and the name for them is stiddari and they are not supposed to deal with them. So if Rizzuto had decided to go his own way this is what he would have become. This is why I never believed the Six Family type stories.

And building on that premise: no sanctioned group is going to be hit by members of that world yet you've got LCN components on the opposing side. So the Rizzutos had to have ran afoul of the system. Maybe Vito's arrest pissed off Nick so much that he was antagonistic to the new leadership and it went downhill from there. He's an elder wiseguy who had a rep in Sicily, South America and Canada, Montagna's criminal pedigree isn't even 1/20 of that, but he was a ranking member. I imagine Joe Sodano felt the same way when presented with Ralph Natale. We on the outside look at Montagna vs Rizzuto or Natale vs Sodano and see the formers as flunkies who couldn't shine the latters' shoes. Interestingly their downfall was thinking the same way. In the end, rules are rules and in the words of Neil the Pollack: "The boss is the boss is the boss" which can easily be applied to the entire mafia system of trickle up economics. The minute anyone feels above that, you're an endangered species, by principle. Sleeping with members wives, being half Italian, holding back money can be argued about in terms of penalities. But not paying, not reporting in when called, there's no coming back from that.

[SonnyBlackstein]

But what other time has a crew broken off and a Family allowed it? To allow such a thing, would have deeper ramifications for the Bonanno family itself not to mention the Mafia as a whole.

I think this particular phrasing gets to the point of our disagreement.

The Bonnano family was in no position to enforce its mandate in Canada whatsoever. It did not choose/allow/sanction the independance of Montreal, rather it was in no position to render judgement let alone enforce one.

[Sol]

There's one other point to remember - anybody who wants to operate in New York has to have an okay from New York families. By anyone I mean, Sicilian, Calabrian families etc. This is why Rizzuto becomes nobody if he breaks away but he has a lot of power if he is the bridge to New York. This is why John Gambino is so important now because he can make introductions and smooth things over with other families and he has enough power and clout in his own family.

The whole rebel scenario is well known in Italy and the name for them is stiddari and they are not supposed to deal with them. So if Rizzuto had decided to go his own way this is what he would have become. This is why I never believed the Six Family type stories.

And building on that premise: no sanctioned group is going to be hit by members of that world yet you've got LCN components on the opposing side. So the Rizzutos had to have ran afoul of the system. Maybe Vito's arrest pissed off Nick so much that he was antagonistic to the new leadership and it went downhill from there. He's an elder wiseguy who had a rep in Sicily, South America and Canada, Montagna's criminal pedigree isn't even 1/20 of that, but he was a ranking member. I imagine Joe Sodano felt the same way when presented with Ralph Natale. We on the outside look at Montagna vs Rizzuto or Natale vs Sodano and see the formers as flunkies who couldn't shine the latters' shoes. Interestingly their downfall was thinking the same way. In the end, rules are rules and in the words of Neil the Pollack: "The boss is the boss is the boss" which can easily be applied to the entire mafia system of trickle up economics. The minute anyone feels above that, you're an endangered species, by principle. Sleeping with members wives, being half Italian, holding back money can be argued about in terms of penalities. But not paying, not reporting in when called, there's no coming back from that.

"The rules are the rules" saying no longer applys today, we have rats going right back to there old stomping grounds in NY and nothing happening to them. If they can't even kill rats who return to NY what makes you or anyone think someone as powerful as vito (all the way up in canada) is going to send Vinny a 100k just because vinny told him to step up his game up? I bet my left leg vito would have pissed on vinny head had vinny or any other bonannos who tried to go up to canada and make a move on Vito. We all saw what vito did when he got out of prison, and those were wise guys in and from canada who knew there way around that country and the ways of the mob in canada. Now imagine some yoyo from the bronx or any other city in NY going up to canada to make a move on vito. Vito would had them in the trunks as soon as the got past the boarder patrols......Soliai

[Angelo Santino]

But what other time has a crew broken off and a Family allowed it? To allow such a thing, would have deeper ramifications for the Bonanno family itself not to mention the Mafia as a whole.

I think this particular phrasing gets to the point of our disagreement.

The Bonnano family was in no position to enforce its mandate in Canada whatsoever. It did not choose/allow/sanction the independance of Montreal, rather it was in no position to render judgement let alone enforce one.

That's what I thought too and looked what happened. It may not have been in the form of a hit squad from New York.

"The rules are the rules" saying no longer applys today, we have rats going right back to there old stomping grounds in NY and nothing happening to them. If they can't even kill rats who return to NY what makes you or anyone think someone as powerful as vito (all the way up in canada) is going to send Vinny a 100k just because vinny told him to step up his game up? I bet my left leg vito would have pissed on vinny head had vinny or any other bonannos who tried to go up to canada and make a move on Vito. We all saw what vito did when he got out of prison, and those were wise guys in and from canada who knew there way around that country and the ways of the mob in canada. Now imagine some yoyo from the bronx or any other city in NY going up to canada to make a move on vito. Vito would had them in the trunks as soon as the got past the boarder patrols......Soliai

The rules apply if you're an LCN member and want to continue to operate... Rats are another topic, to kill one would mean investing money into something that would serve nothing (the damage is done) but to make a point and would force law enforcement to be up in arms. One could argue the same for a theoretical Canadian "war" but the difference is money was at stake. Letting a rat walk around Brooklyn and giving up 100K or 20K can't be viewed as the same thing.

I agree with what you're saying about Vito, his crew in Canada had tremendous clout, maybe more so in Canada than the Bonannos do in NY. But that doesn't matter. The internal politics of LCN outweigh all of that. Crews don't just break off without repercussion. If the Rizzutos were questioning that, they got answered. No one can deny that at this point unless you guys are of the mind that the Bonannos had no hand in "the war" and Montagna was a roque Tommy Vercetti making alliances in his newfound land. We'll have to disagree on that one, respectfully.

[Rocco]

I don't believe that the Rizzutos where the most powerful family in north America, but I definitely believe they were more powerful then the Bonannos, even when Massino was in his prime. And there's no way in hell I believe cicale when he said vinny told vito to step it up and vito sent him a 100k. Vito would have told vinny to suck a dick, what was vinny going to do send assassins to canada...lol........Soliai

I believe there was an article when the Old Man Nick was alive where he stated that he didn't want to deal with Vinny because he was tied to Massino who appointed him and MAssino was a rat. Nick didn't want to deal with anyone tied to Massino because he was a rat. Cicale really stretches it thin with these claims.

I see both points being made. But what other time has a crew broken off and a Family allowed it? To allow such a thing, would have deeper ramifications for the Bonanno family itself not to mention the Mafia as a whole. Vito Rizzuto the criminal was a powerful man, but rules are rules and he and his father were operating under the Bonanno banner. To allow that is saying anyone can break off and operate independent. Even if you're part of another Family, to allow or go along with such a move goes against everything. In America, in Sicily, Canada, whatever. "The money comes up." No one, not even the Rizzutos, can buck that system. For them to be recognized as independent they would have had to have done it "legally" and maybe Massino flipping gave them the precedent they needed. But if that happened they got gangbanged afterward, either they lost their Bonanno "protection" and the wolves (incl. Montagna) came or Montagna delivered the Bonanno message.

Something happened between these two groups, I don't think one side is all right or wrong.

I evolved on this, remember when Montagna was deported my opinion at the time was that he was "a man without a family." I was wrong.

I don't think Nick was saying they were breaking with NY but rather they didn't want to deal with Vinny as boss because he was placed as boss by Massino. So I think Nick just wanted to deal with someone who was not placed as boss by a rat.

[Angelo Santino]

I don't think Nick was saying they were breaking with NY but rather they didn't want to deal with Vinny as boss because he was placed as boss by Massino. So I think Nick just wanted to deal with someone who was not placed as boss by a rat.

Could be that too... I mean just speculating here, Sciascia was killed in 99 which created some tension, from that point we have LaMothe saying Montreal stopped payments and we have Cicale saying payments continued. Whatever the case, Massino flipping and jamming up Vito probably didn't sit too well. After all that, Nick Rizzuto probably was fed up. We already know he sent word to NY that he wasn't following Montagna (after he arrived in Canada.) If the Bonannos needed a legitimate reason, Nick provided it to them by doing that... The Bonannos don't have the manpower, the proper firearms to wage a full on assault, but they can let out the word that the Rizzutos have a greenlight on them and anyone who helps Montagna out will be rewarded. They win by farming it out and doing nothing themselves (not they could in the first place with 20 year old rusty pieces of shit, its the reason why guys survive mob hits). Again, none of this has been established, I'm just speculating. We're not going to know for certain until more credible info becomes available.

Question though: Sciascia wasn't captain over Montreal, he was NY based captain with a crew there. Why did Vitale have to go see Rizzuto after Sciascia concerning a successor if they headed up two separate crews that weren't extensions of one another?

[joeycigars]

"The rules are the rules" saying no longer applys today, we have rats going right back to there old stomping grounds in NY and nothing happening to them. If they can't even kill rats who return to NY what makes you or anyone think someone as powerful as vito (all the way up in canada) is going to send Vinny a 100k just because vinny told him to step up his game up? I bet my left leg vito would have pissed on vinny head had vinny or any other bonannos who tried to go up to canada and make a move on Vito. We all saw what vito did when he got out of prison, and those were wise guys in and from canada who knew there way around that country and the ways of the mob in canada. Now imagine some yoyo from the bronx or any other city in NY going up to canada to make a move on vito. Vito would had them in the trunks as soon as the got past the boarder patrols......Soliai

Vitos dead , Vitos Son is dead , Vitos father is dead , Vitos inner circle is dead , Sal from NY did instigate a move on Vito , If Vito wanted to do business in new York he had to pay Vinny or stay out of New York , Instead of staying out of business in the NY area ....It looks like Vito for $20,000 bought his way in ,Then the price went up, Pretty typical

The Rizuttos weren't bringing all those drugs into North America to be shut out of the New York pipeline and 1 of the 5 O.C families for measly 20 grand,

[JBELL]

I agree for a well-established crime family known for smuggling narcotics that small amount of money wouldn't let them fuck up a business relationship as lucrative as his might of been. Some of those Bc's they bring in net a huge profit just off a 10 pack bottom-line

[Rocco]

Rizzutos had allot of biz partners in the drug trade. One being the Hells Angels which is much larger and more powerful then what is left of then Bonannos in NY. To me Cicale is just another rat spinning his is own story for profit and of course painting himself as the most succeful and smartest gangster in the Bonanno family to ever walk the earth. I doubt very much Vito sent $100k because Vinny said step it up. And I doubt Vito came to NY when summoned by Massino. Neither Cicale, Basciano or Bruno would be privy to this info because neither were close to Massino or Vitale. Also Massino and Vitale would have disclosed this in their FBI debriefing. Both said Sal went o Montreal not that Vito came to NY. Massino worried about the repercussions of killing George. I would go with the info Sal and Massino provided over Cicale. Cicale is a blow heart looking to make $$$. Take it all with a grain of salt. Just my opinion of course.

[Lupara]

* Contrary to reports, including in The Sixth Family, Cicale says there was never any formal break between Rizzuto and the Bonanno family. [snip] It got to the point where rumors started to get back to Massino about Rizzuto and "he did not like what he was hearing so he immediately sent for Vito to get his ass down to Maspeth, Queens, in New York where Joe informed Vito who the boss was and that Canada was still under the control of the Bonanno family. Vito may not have agreed with what Massino said but he listened. The monies were still coming in from all the illegal activities in Canada, even after the murder of George Sciascia" (which is where many have speculated the break happened). "Vito had no choice. If he did not show, he could have easily gotten killed - even by someone close to him in Canada. [snip] Rizzuto carried out other orders issued from New York. Massino sent word to Vito to open a strip club in Canada and Massino and Vito would be 50-50 partners. Vito did as he was told." Cicale believed the strip club was a test to see how Rizzuto responded. The Christmas during which Anthony Urso was acting boss Rizzuto sent $25,000. Later, when Basciano was acting boss on the street, he told Rizzuto he would have to "step it up" and send $100,000. So Vito sent the money."

Finally some sort of confirmation of what I've pretty much always believed. Any reason to think this guy could have an agenda concerning Canada? This one will be hard to swallow for the Rizzuto hegemonists.

[Lupara]

Vitale claimed that the Rizzutos stopped kicking up and broke off ties after Sciascia was kiled in 1999.

I cannot recall that he made that specific statement. Could you list a source?

[Pogo The Clown]

I don't recall a specific source. I remember reading it when all that info on the Bonannos was coming out during the mid 2000s.


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

I read it in the 6th Family by LaMothe. Vitale said the payments stopped at a certain pint. if you want a verbatim I'll pull the book off the shelf..

[SonnyBlackstein]

The Bonannos don't have the manpower, the proper firearms to wage a full on assault, but they can let out the word that the Rizzutos have a greenlight on them and anyone who helps Montagna out will be rewarded. They win by farming it out and doing nothing themselves

Farming it out to who? The Bonannos have little to no contacts beyond NYC. The Rizzutos have extensive international, italian and local contacts (as mentioned Bikers etc in addition to LCN contacts).
And If it came to a question in Italy between a laughing stock of a family (post Massino, Vitale etc) and a hugely lucrative narcotics pipeline on who's getting 'greenlit', I think we know which way thats going.

The Rizuttos weren't bringing all those drugs into North America to be shut out of the New York pipeline and 1 of the 5 O.C families for measly 20 grand,

Who says the Bonannos had the ability (or ESP respect) to 'shut the Rizzuto's out of NY'?

Vitale said the payments stopped at a certain pint.

If true, how is this even an issue? Vitale's word, putting it mildly, SHITS all over Cicale's.

[joeycigars]

Who says the Bonannos had the ability (or ESP respect) to 'shut the Rizzuto's out of NY'?

Who says they didnt at the time ? By most accounts Vinny and Dom had a Genovese bosses son killed for disrespect , I am sure they would do the same to any idiot Rizzuto that happened to wonder in to NY that was told them to fuck off .

The defunct warring Rizzuto crew arent super humans like some believe, To much credit given to crew of Rizzutos as a huge power , Vito didnt have the power when he went away to save his son and Father that speaks for itself , Vito said this would happen and he was right , They will never be what they were ,