Did the other families know about the Genovese "front boss" system?

[Pete]

Consider this: If this man behind the scenes want something done, he would go the the front boss. But what if the front boss says no. "We can´t do it". Then the man behind the scenes is powerless. He would need to go to someone else down the ladder and explain the situation. Now, the one down the ladder would know that the guy is the real boss and the front boss is just a figure head. And by the way these guys are yapping, soon enough, multiple people would know who´s really calling the shots. Then what´s the freaking point of being a man behind the scences if multiple members of the Family know what the situation is?

HK, you're smarter than this.

The objective of a front boss is to keep LE, other families and your own rank and file in the dark.
Keeping your administration and potentially even your Capos in on the play is perfectly workable, understandable and sensible.

Lombardo stepping back and using Tieri, Gigante using Salerno. That this would be kept from other families or the rank n file is ridiculous? Or wouldn't work because Lombardo would have to go to a capo in your weird example, not his own administration? Even though either scenario is actually perfectly fine?

It's a smart and likely play. And you're in the minority in thinking it didn't happen. Remember when looking for CI/informant confirmation, these are the guys specifically designed to be misinformed.

And the argument that why would anyone take a fall job is false as well. Salerno didn't know about the commission case coming and the 100 years.
And this is Cosa Nostra. Not a democracy. You do what you're told.
When a soldier is told to hit his best friend, does he decide he doesn't want to do it? No, you do what you're told.
So the whole argument of 'who would want the job' is not appropriate for a dictatorial society.

In summation, to maintain a front boss, the scenario of keeping the administration and/or the Capos involved is in preserving the point of the exercise and easily workable.

So your example above fails given more than superficial thought.

I think why people can't understand it is it's not exactly true. Did they conceal who the leaders of the family were? Sure they did. But if you think chin went to fat tony and said your gonna be my front boss and take all the heat for me that's just nuts. There's tapes of fat tony referring to chin as the boss. Fat tony was never a front. He held various important positions and people thought was the boss. There's a big difference

[SonnyBlackstein]

I think why people can't understand it is it's not exactly true. Did they conceal who the leaders of the family were? Sure they did. But if you think chin went to fat tony and said your gonna be my front boss and take all the heat for me that's just nuts. There's tapes of fat tony referring to chin as the boss. Fat tony was never a front. He held various important positions and people thought was the boss. There's a big difference

Well firstly you don't know whats true or whats not. Neither do I. Or anyone. We're all making best guesses based on available information.

And from the family who used the rotating panel for over TWENTY YEARS to conceal the power would have had a conversation along the lines of 'Tony (Salerno) you're going to represent us to other families as we're trying to shield Vincent', is perfectly logical.

There are beyond a million examples at EVERY level; soldier, capo and above of using proxies and intermediaries in order to insulate and shield.

So cut it with the blanket statements. Because the common consensus is you're wrong.

[Hailbritain]

I think why people can't understand it is it's not exactly true. Did they conceal who the leaders of the family were? Sure they did. But if you think chin went to fat tony and said your gonna be my front boss and take all the heat for me that's just nuts. There's tapes of fat tony referring to chin as the boss. Fat tony was never a front. He held various important positions and people thought was the boss. There's a big difference

Well firstly you don't know whats true or whats not. Neither do I. Or anyone. We're all making best guesses based on available information.

And from the family who used the rotating panel for over TWENTY YEARS to conceal the power would have had a conversation along the lines of 'Tony (Salerno) you're going to represent us to other families as we're trying to shield Vincent', is perfectly logical.

There are beyond a million examples at EVERY level; soldier, capo and above of using proxies and intermediaries in order to insulate and shield.

So cut it with the blanket statements. Because the common consensus is you're wrong.

gotta say I agree with sonny here , it's been one of the main reasons the genovese family have been so successful over the years

[HairyKnuckles]

Consider this: If this man behind the scenes want something done, he would go the the front boss. But what if the front boss says no. "We can´t do it". Then the man behind the scenes is powerless. He would need to go to someone else down the ladder and explain the situation. Now, the one down the ladder would know that the guy is the real boss and the front boss is just a figure head. And by the way these guys are yapping, soon enough, multiple people would know who´s really calling the shots. Then what´s the freaking point of being a man behind the scences if multiple members of the Family know what the situation is?

HK, you're smarter than this.

The objective of a front boss is to keep LE, other families and your own rank and file in the dark.
Keeping your administration and potentially even your Capos in on the play is perfectly workable, understandable and sensible.

Lombardo stepping back and using Tieri, Gigante using Salerno. That this would be kept from other families or the rank n file is ridiculous? Or wouldn't work because Lombardo would have to go to a capo in your weird example, not his own administration? Even though either scenario is actually perfectly fine?

It's a smart and likely play. And you're in the minority in thinking it didn't happen. Remember when looking for CI/informant confirmation, these are the guys specifically designed to be misinformed.

And the argument that why would anyone take a fall job is false as well. Salerno didn't know about the commission case coming and the 100 years.
And this is Cosa Nostra. Not a democracy. You do what you're told.
When a soldier is told to hit his best friend, does he decide he doesn't want to do it? No, you do what you're told.
So the whole argument of 'who would want the job' is not appropriate for a dictatorial society.

In summation, to maintain a front boss, the scenario of keeping the administration and/or the Capos involved is in preserving the point of the exercise and easily workable.

So your example above fails given more than superficial thought.

Lombardo had his own administration? Do you mean the one beside of the known one including Tieri, Zeccardi, Ardito? Can you name this other administration please? For a set up of a man behind the scenes/front boss type of thing to work, the man behind the scenes would need to have a huge faction backing him up. Otherwise, what kept the front boss from whacking him and simply explain to the boys "this guy was talking to the feds, I had to do it". Who would have asked any questions? But having a huge faction backing him up, pretty soon, this set up of man behind the scenes/front boss would have been known to all members and consequently, it would have been known to LE.

If there were guys, like you say, who shared info with the feds and who were supposed to have been misinformed, Lombardo would have to have known exactly who the informants were in order for that to work. How likely does that sound to you? If he knew who the members were who gave information, wouldn´t it be safer just to whack them, preventing them to give up all kinds of information?

You are naive Sonny, to think a man behind the scenes/front boss system would work. It would have leaked to LE through the rats in a split second. And if the man behind the scenes doesn´t have a huge faction backing him up, who would have been more powerful if the front boss starts to say "no", And "I think I´ll whack you instead". The system of having a front boss, is a lose-lose situation, for both parties.

[SonnyBlackstein]

HK you've severely misread my post.

Please re-read.

[Wiseguy]

I think why people can't understand it is it's not exactly true. Did they conceal who the leaders of the family were? Sure they did. But if you think chin went to fat tony and said your gonna be my front boss and take all the heat for me that's just nuts. There's tapes of fat tony referring to chin as the boss. Fat tony was never a front. He held various important positions and people thought was the boss. There's a big difference

It's why I've always said acting or street boss (same thing) is more accurate. Front boss implies an unwitting dupe. Salerno certainly wasn't that. He basically did just about everything an official boss does but only had to answer to Gigante.

By the way, in one of Fat Tony's recorded conversations, he talks about how if they don't like how he's doing the job, they could take it back. The "they" he was referring to was Chin and Lombardo. This showed Benny Squint still carried a certain amount of influence long after some believe he was out of the picture.

The FBI and justice department is a weak argument being they were the ones who said fat tony was the boss for years after convicting him in the commission case. Those guys will say anything to advance their agenda of the day

You talk as if the Fat Tony thing was not one of the few exceptions to the rule when you look at their batting average - especially since the 1980s. Without the info we get from the feds, directly or indirectly, all of us would know little to nothing about the mob. And how does believing and writing the same info advance Capeci's or Raab's career? And by the way, it was later ruled that Salerno didn't have to be the official boss to be convicted.

[HairyKnuckles]

HK you've severely misread my post.

Please re-read.

Have I? How?

The objective of a front boss is to keep LE, other families and your own rank and file in the dark.

That´s impossible if Lombardo had a huge faction backing him up. The set up would eventually have been leaked to LE. And this never happened. Without a faction backing him up, he´s powerless if the front boss would say no to him.

Lombardo stepping back and using Tieri, Gigante using Salerno. That this would be kept from other families or the rank n file is ridiculous? Or wouldn't work because Lombardo would have to go to a capo in your weird example, not his own administration?

What administration are you talking about? Which Genovese members were in Lombardo´s administration?

And this is Cosa Nostra. Not a democracy. You do what you're told

You are very often calling these Cosa Nostra members rapists, men without honor, drug traffickers and individuals who are not following the rules. And now all of the sudden, they are soldiers who do what they are told to do? Weird.

You may believe whatever you want. I´m not here to convince you. That´s not my job. If you believe Tieri was Lombardo´s front boss....hey, good for you.

[Lupara]

To Sonny's defense and others who believe in the secret boss theory, I think they believe that the administration and perhaps even the capos would've been aware who was calling the shots, not just the front/street/acting boss alone. In this scenario, the front/street/acting boss would not be able to rebel on his own unless he was backed by the others who were in this circle of trust. However, if this was the case, I think either all the capos would've been informed about who the true power was or none at all. Whatever the case it remains a risky arrangement for the power that be because the fewer who know the easier a transition of power (take-over) would be while on the other hand the more who know the more change it leaks out and you're back to square one. A round-table of Lombardo, Tieri and Gigante with Tieri acting as executive makes more sense than Lombardo being the secret boss known by only a handful of people.

As we all know, the round-table has been in use for a long time now, not only by the Genoveses, but also by the Gambinos, Montreal and probably the other New York families as well. It's another fairly waterproof layer added to the already existing hierarchy that may or may not be first implemented by the Genoveses in the 60s and 70s.

[Angelo Santino]

To Sonny's defense and others who believe in the secret boss theory, I think they believe that the administration and perhaps even the capos would've been aware who was calling the shots, not just the front/street/acting boss alone. In this scenario, the front/street/acting boss would not be able to rebel on his own unless he was backed by the others who were in this circle of trust. However, if this was the case, I think either all the capos would've been informed about who the true power was or none at all. Whatever the case it remains a risky arrangement for the power that be because the fewer who know the easier a transition of power (take-over) would be while on the other hand the more who know the more change it leaks out and you're back to square one. A round-table of Lombardo, Tieri and Gigante with Tieri acting as executive makes more sense than Lombardo being the secret boss known by only a handful of people.

As we all know, the round-table has been in use for a long time now, not only by the Genoveses, but also by the Gambinos, Montreal and probably the other New York families as well. It's another fairly waterproof layer added to the already existing hierarchy that may or may not be first implemented by the Genoveses in the 60s and 70s.

Why does all the authority have to fall onto one person? I think we as outsiders get too wrapped up with "Boss" and "soldier" that it hinders our ability to understand how these groups function. Granted there have been "absolute powers" who determine the ranks of everyone under him but it's still not as pyramidal as some imagine it to be. I've seen discussions from posters who argue a Boss should only deal with his Under, the under with captains and the captains with soldiers etc. It rarely worked that way unless there's a boss like Di Fronzo or Tocco who've been around for decades and slowly isolate themselves around guys they've known forever. The goal of organized crime is organized crime and the "inner circle" mostly relates to politics. The basic membership is known as soldiers but they aren't in a platoon and apart from some basic rules are free to maneuver as they'd like.

From looking at plenty of examples over the last 100 years there are roughly two types of administrations. The first would be a titular boss who appoints his under and consig from his own group of loyalists. You see that mostly in the smaller families outside of NY. The second, which you see in the larger families, each administrative role is filled by former captains who were leaders unto themselves. All the names we're throwing around debating who was what in the Genoveses were all crew leaders or influential members before getting into the administration.

Earlier in this thread WG stated that several decades ago the Bosses would meet with other bosses and represent the group and not get too wrapped up in the lower-tier headaches. That is true but he's not a man on an island. For as "insulated" as we consider the Genoveses to be, Gigante was still undone by a wired up associate (!).

[Pete]

I think why people can't understand it is it's not exactly true. Did they conceal who the leaders of the family were? Sure they did. But if you think chin went to fat tony and said your gonna be my front boss and take all the heat for me that's just nuts. There's tapes of fat tony referring to chin as the boss. Fat tony was never a front. He held various important positions and people thought was the boss. There's a big difference

It's why I've always said acting or street boss (same thing) is more accurate. Front boss implies an unwitting dupe. Salerno certainly wasn't that. He basically did just about everything an official boss does but only had to answer to Gigante.

By the way, in one of Fat Tony's recorded conversations, he talks about how if they don't like how he's doing the job, they could take it back. The "they" he was referring to was Chin and Lombardo. This showed Benny Squint still carried a certain amount of influence long after some believe he was out of the picture.

The FBI and justice department is a weak argument being they were the ones who said fat tony was the boss for years after convicting him in the commission case. Those guys will say anything to advance their agenda of the day

You talk as if the Fat Tony thing was not one of the few exceptions to the rule when you look at their batting average - especially since the 1980s. Without the info we get from the feds, directly or indirectly, all of us would know little to nothing about the mob. And how does believing and writing the same info advance Capeci's or Raab's career? And by the way, it was later ruled that Salerno didn't have to be the official boss to be convicted.

Wise guy hit the nail on the head. Maybe it's a terminology
Issue. We all know Salerno was never the boss but that doesn't make him a front. He was still a powerful leader. Acting boss or street boss to me is a more accurate representation of his position. Very similar to Chicago with people classifying jimmy Marcello as a front boss. He wasn't fronting for anyone. He was a street boss that still had to consult with others when it came to certain things. Two very different things

[B.]

The last time this came up I think we figured that Salerno was actually the underboss up through his indictment in the Commission case, with Santora possibly acting underboss before being briefly made official underboss in 1986. This goes against Cafaro's testimony, of course.

[rayray]

I didn't think that the Genovese purposely "hid" the identity of the "boss" of the family, I just thought they ran their family in a way that it became confusing to those not in the know, escalating false info in who was boss or not. In other words, Gigante being boss, I just figured everyone in the know knew he was "boss" and that the only people confused was anyone who had no business knowing he was boss.

Like, is any boss of any family supposed to go around saying, "I'm the BOSS!" Especially in the last 40 to 50 years, it would be career suicide.

[Cheech]

What I recall about Eli Zeccardi is that he owed Carlo Gambino money and apparently showed him disrespect. Gambino contacted the then boss of the Genovese and it was considered a serious breach in protocol, which they took seriously. For all of the above he was killed.

Just to note, this is what I read and I cannot vouch for its accuracy. Others may have better info.

Gambino was a charistmatic criminal from a "fans of evil characters" point of view, but he was a real motherf#$ker to be honest imo....Didn't respect other families at all and put his long nose into others' business all the time: whacked Joe Colombo who was another family's boss (although not 100% it was him, but possible); whacked Mimi Scialo who wasn't a Gambino member either; he was a violent scumbag, ok, but the reason for killing him was stupid: a couple of drunken insults and laughing at his hat; now this, Zeccardi's killing was his doing too and again, Zeccardi was the n.2 of ANOTHER family. And maybe other such cases, don't have them in mind right now...

It would have been so much better if Bonanno succeeded in his failed plan to whack Gambino, Lucchese, Magaddino and all those others who at the end were never harmed neither by law enforcement nor by mafia rivals. Would have been an interesting turn of events, seriously, like in the movie from the 70s called "The stone killer" about an alternative mafia history, where the conservative Sicilian mafia groups in America take revenge on the former Luciano allies for taking over from the Moustache Petes in 1931 etc (although that film incorrectly takes for granted the legend that Luciano had killed a big number of old bosses at the same time as Maranzano).

Dont forget Eboli. He rants on and on about gambino and catena giving him back the cops

[Antiliar]

I have to make a correction:
What I wrote about Eli Zeccardi was mistaken. That was Tommy Ryan Eboli's story. Eboli allegedly borrowed $4 million from Carlo Gambino to fund a drug operation, but it was shut down by the feds, so Eboli couldn't come up with the money. Gambino and Castellano met with him about the money, and he told them he didn't have it. The Wikipedia article claims that Gambino ordered his murder, but I think that was only part of it. Eboli wasn't well-liked by his own borgata and this could have provided justification for his death. I could see Lombardo, Salerno, Catena and others agreeing to it and were just looking for an excuse to get rid of him.

Zeccardi, according to a source, was a threat to Tieri, maybe plotting a coup against him. Not much info out there, but it's as good a reason as any.

[HairyKnuckles]

I didn't think that the Genovese purposely "hid" the identity of the "boss" of the family, I just thought they ran their family in a way that it became confusing to those not in the know, escalating false info in who was boss or not.

It´s confusing to us because we haven´t poked our noses into it that much. Perhaps out of laziness, we chose to believe what´s on Mafiawiki and what other dubious sources say. And I´m sorry to say, but Cafaro´s testimony doesn´t help that much. In fact, it only confuses us even more. Considering our lack of overall knowledge, the Genoveses are actually not that hard to figure out. Please ask youselves...for example, who were Castellano´s captains when he took over? Not many of us could name all of them or even name half of them. You could also ask yourselves to name the Lucchese Family´s captains during the 1970s. Will we be able to name ten of them? This doesen´t mean that the Gambinos and the Luccheses were run in a special way impossible for us to figure the captains out. So our lack of overall knowledge is not only restricted to the Genovese Family who we sometime see as crime overlords, crimainal masterminds with bosses so "insulated" it´s impossible to figure them out. But they are NOT impossible to figure out. We need some extensive research on them. That´s all. Thanks to JD and his incredibly amazing research on the Colombos and the Bonannos, we now know a lot on these groups. If some similar research on the Genoveses gets launched, in a while we would know the what, when and who in regards to the Genovese Family too.