What crew would Casso end up with if he stayed with the Genovese fam?

[SonnyBlackstein]

He claims that when the books opened in the 1970s each of the families met with him to try to recruit him as a made member which anyone with even a basic knowledge of mob protocol knows is bullshit. He made it sound like he was a top high school football star being recruited by colleges.

I wouldn't be so quick to write this scenario off as total bullshit. Things aren't always black and white when it comes to recruitment. Depending on the circumstances Casso wouldn't be the first guy to pick where he landed.

People are close to guys from multiple families and transfers are possible based on the circumstance, sure, but let us know if you have any examples of a situation like Carlo/Casso described where multiple families supposedly sat down with Casso and tried to convince him to join them like some kind of top quarterback prospect. These aren't college football teams, these are crime families who were opening the books for the first time in 20 years and had hundreds of potential recruits, all of whom were formally aligned with a certain family/member. They had no reason to humble themselves and compete for a guy no matter what his reputation was, especially when that's not the way the system is set up.

Casso was a major figure in his day, nobody has said otherwise, but Carlo's book is filled with unverifiable hype at best and gutter trash at worst. Regardless of the book, Casso's deal with the government was revoked because he was an untrustworthy CW. They would have loved to have used him much like they did Gravano, Leonetti, etc. but he ruined his deal and credibility. If you have other sources and info, I'm all about checking it out, though.

Thinking the mods should move this to its own topic as this has strayed pretty far from sourced info about Mario Gigante and the Genovese family. I'm not trying to start a fight or anything but the last page or so on here reads like your average GangsterBB thread.

Use him against what or who? The feds im thinking never wanted him, he had too much blood on his hands to much to make him testifay.. The feds just screwed him over

Too much blood?

Gravano had 19 n change on his hands yet was paraded front n centre.

All Im saying is Casso is untrustworthy as fuck (let alone Carlo) so, even for a rat, is to be trusted at his word as much as you could throw the cunt.

Not much.

[B.]

Like Sonny is talking about, other witnesses have been involved in many murders and murder conspiracies and have kept their deals and testified. Massino's deal proved to me that the government will accept anyone and provide any breaks they can. Everyone up through the underboss can always say they were just following orders, but here we finally had the boss who was issuing the orders, who had final say over life and death, and he got brought out at trial and got an incredible deal that actually became an even better deal later on. Cooperating deals are designed to break down the insulation and target the boss, not help him, but here Massino came out on top. Casso would probably be a free man today if he hadn't messed up his cooperation.

I didn't mean to sound so harsh earlier, I want to add... not trying to shut down anyone's take/opinion. It's always cool when we revisit what we think we know about the more well-known guys as we learn more. I do think this would be better off getting split into another topic, though.

[AlexfromSouth]

Like Sonny is talking about, other witnesses have been involved in many murders and murder conspiracies and have kept their deals and testified. Massino's deal proved to me that the government will accept anyone and provide any breaks they can. Everyone up through the underboss can always say they were just following orders, but here we finally had the boss who was issuing the orders, who had final say over life and death, and he got brought out at trial and got an incredible deal that actually became an even better deal later on. Cooperating deals are designed to break down the insulation and target the boss, not help him, but here Massino came out on top. Casso would probably be a free man today if he hadn't messed up his cooperation.

I didn't mean to sound so harsh earlier, I want to add... not trying to shut down anyone's take/opinion. It's always cool when we revisit what we think we know about the more well-known guys as we learn more. I do think this would be better off getting split into another topic, though.

Great post B.! Appreciate your knowledge and input, and the fact you guys opened a new tread. Your opinion is to be taken very seriously. Regarding Gravano and Casso, don't know how true it is but there was that whole drug thing that Casso said and we all know why they needed Gravano. Gotti was a far bigger target than anyone else in the world at that time.
Another thing, the Lukes already had there share of rats even before Casso, and finally Casso had connection to betwen 50-100 hits not to mention drugs, the bypass thefts and gasoline.. Don't if the feds were happy to put a animal like that back on the street. 19 gravano murders is already to much let alone Casso's numbers.
That's just my take on it, but I would like if we can get back on that original topic, at least part of it regarding Christie tick. What do you guys think did they get together before or after Sal Celembrino died? Does anybody have more info on that?

[johnny_scootch]

He claims that when the books opened in the 1970s each of the families met with him to try to recruit him as a made member which anyone with even a basic knowledge of mob protocol knows is bullshit. He made it sound like he was a top high school football star being recruited by colleges.

I wouldn't be so quick to write this scenario off as total bullshit. Things aren't always black and white when it comes to recruitment. Depending on the circumstances Casso wouldn't be the first guy to pick where he landed.

People are close to guys from multiple families and transfers are possible based on the circumstance, sure, but let us know if you have any examples of a situation like Carlo/Casso described where multiple families supposedly sat down with Casso and tried to convince him to join them like some kind of top quarterback prospect. These aren't college football teams, these are crime families who were opening the books for the first time in 20 years and had hundreds of potential recruits, all of whom were formally aligned with a certain family/member. They had no reason to humble themselves and compete for a guy no matter what his reputation was, especially when that's not the way the system is set up.

Casso was a major figure in his day, nobody has said otherwise, but Carlo's book is filled with unverifiable hype at best and gutter trash at worst. Regardless of the book, Casso's deal with the government was revoked because he was an untrustworthy CW. They would have loved to have used him much like they did Gravano, Leonetti, etc. but he ruined his deal and credibility. If you have other sources and info, I'm all about checking it out, though.

Thinking the mods should move this to its own topic as this has strayed pretty far from sourced info about Mario Gigante and the Genovese family. I'm not trying to start a fight or anything but the last page or so on here reads like your average GangsterBB thread.

I said don't write the story off as TOTAL bullshit meaning I'm pretty certain things didn't happen the exact way described in the book but a situation where a highly respected associate who was close with many many guys from different families in a time where guys haven't been made in almost 20 years you have to realize the situation wasn't exactly the same as it is today.

You have all those guys that waited for years and years to get made and only certain number were allowed in some guys weren't sure if the books would get closed for another 20 years so they wanted all the best recruits to be initiated maybe possibly even if that means that guy went with other people. It wasn't ALL about greed in the old days like today.

And these guys fight over associates all the time especially the big earners.

[SonnyBlackstein]

You have all those guys that waited for years and years to get made and only certain number were allowed in some guys weren't sure if the books would get closed for another 20 years so they wanted all the best recruits to be initiated maybe possibly even if that means that guy went with other people. It wasn't ALL about greed in the old days like today.

And these guys fight over associates all the time especially the big earners.

LCN is first and foremost a business. The notion that a top earning/work associate would get transferred from one crew/made guy to another, let alone another family, just so he could get his button, is, well, bullshit.
These selfish pricks kill, rape and maime for a dollar and suddenly they're going to give up a top earner, to another family no less, out of the goodness of their own heart?

Guys fight like shit at sitdowns for top associates.
Now they're just giving them away?

Guys get transferred but only in rare cases and mostly because of serious disputes. IE Gravano or Gallo.

There's this whole nostalgic notion that 'back in the day' these guys were good guys with codes of honour and nobility. It's bullshit.
You know what 'honour' these guys had 'back in the day'? The guy Casso ended up with in the end? Christie Tic? Was a fucking rapist.

Not all about money? That's all it's ever been about.

And you've kind of contradicted yourself above. You start off saying they wanted the best guys to get made even if it meant going with someone else, and you've closed off by saying these guys fight over associates all the time.
Which one is it, they giving them away, or fighting over them?

And I don't mean any offence if I sound abrupt.

[Stroccos]

You have all those guys that waited for years and years to get made and only certain number were allowed in some guys weren't sure if the books would get closed for another 20 years so they wanted all the best recruits to be initiated maybe possibly even if that means that guy went with other people. It wasn't ALL about greed in the old days like today.

And these guys fight over associates all the time especially the big earners.

LCN is first and foremost a business. The notion that a top earning/work associate would get transferred from one crew/made guy to another, let alone another family, just so he could get his button, is, well, bullshit.
These selfish pricks kill, rape and maime for a dollar and suddenly they're going to give up a top earner, to another family no less, out of the goodness of their own heart?

Guys fight like shit at sitdowns for top associates.
Now they're just giving them away?

Guys get transferred but only in rare cases and mostly because of serious disputes. IE Gravano or Gallo.

There's this whole nostalgic notion that 'back in the day' these guys were good guys with codes of honour and nobility. It's bullshit.
You know what 'honour' these guys had 'back in the day'? The guy Casso ended up with in the end? Christie Tic? Was a fucking rapist.

Not all about money? That's all it's ever been about.

And you've kind of contradicted yourself above. You start off saying they wanted the best guys to get made even if it meant going with someone else, and you've closed off by saying these guys fight over associates all the time.
Which one is it, they giving them away, or fighting over them?

And I don't mean any offence if I sound abrupt.

Well people went to other families to get made for example Dominic LOnardo A cleveland guy went to Buffalo to get made because cleveland wasnt going to open the books

[AlexfromSouth]

You have all those guys that waited for years and years to get made and only certain number were allowed in some guys weren't sure if the books would get closed for another 20 years so they wanted all the best recruits to be initiated maybe possibly even if that means that guy went with other people. It wasn't ALL about greed in the old days like today.

And these guys fight over associates all the time especially the big earners.

LCN is first and foremost a business. The notion that a top earning/work associate would get transferred from one crew/made guy to another, let alone another family, just so he could get his button, is, well, bullshit.
These selfish pricks kill, rape and maime for a dollar and suddenly they're going to give up a top earner, to another family no less, out of the goodness of their own heart?

Guys fight like shit at sitdowns for top associates.
Now they're just giving them away?

Guys get transferred but only in rare cases and mostly because of serious disputes. IE Gravano or Gallo.

There's this whole nostalgic notion that 'back in the day' these guys were good guys with codes of honour and nobility. It's bullshit.
You know what 'honour' these guys had 'back in the day'? The guy Casso ended up with in the end? Christie Tic? Was a fucking rapist.

Not all about money? That's all it's ever been about.

And you've kind of contradicted yourself above. You start off saying they wanted the best guys to get made even if it meant going with someone else, and you've closed off by saying these guys fight over associates all the time.
Which one is it, they giving them away, or fighting over them?

And I don't mean any offence if I sound abrupt.

Take it down a notch. Why r you gettin so upset for?
made guys lose their associates allthe time, lose their guys to othet made men wich are more powerfull or a better point.. You never hear of that? Of cours its about the money that's the whole point.

[SonnyBlackstein]

I apologized if I sounded abrupt. It wasn't intended as an offensive post. I thought I stated that.

And that's the point, these guys lose associates, they don't give them away.

[AlexfromSouth]

That*s also just an assumption of yours. Associates, made men and others change families often. Make a tread of it, and you will see how many soldiers changed families before being made in whatever fam they are made into.
We have no way of knowing if they are lost or passed around.

[SonnyBlackstein]

It's an assumption of yours that they're given away freely.

What makes more sense that these thieving, scheming money hungry criminals would give top earning associates away just for the joy of seeing them get their button enriching someone else, or they'd fight tooth and nail to keep every penny they can?

Its a pretty easy 'assumption'.

[AlexfromSouth]

Not when a soldier has like 20 associates Sonny, and they earn the same or whatever. Demeo meat Gaggi via Mike the hammer, cus Mike thought Roy was gonna get made faster with the Gambinos than the with the Luccheses, so he passed him to Nino. You cant think that thats the only way(the thing your talkin about), I certanly dont think that its not all about the money and lets leave it at that. Whats the problem with this already, lets get back with the topic at hand if we can if not I dont wanna get into this kind of thing anymore.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Agree to disagree.

Back to the thread...

[Cheech]

Basciano is a good example. Tight with Prisco but goes to Bonannos as he would get made quicker.

[johnny_scootch]

All I was saying is that I wouldn't write off the whole scenario where a couple of families may have wanted Casso to join them. The story in the book was probably sensationalized for reading purposes and I can agree with that but it's not so far fetched to think a valued associate with many connections may have had options when deciding which family he was going to join.
Also at the time this all took place wasn't like any other in the nyc mob history. Guys had just started getting made after 20 year hiatus. Probably had tons of worthy candidates so the dynamics of recruitment may have been unique for the time and we don't have the whole picture.

In summation hey that part of the book might not be total bullshit.

[AlexfromSouth]

Does somebody from that neighbourhood or someone who knows when the 19th hole was opened? And who were the guys who hung out there?