Five families numbers cap.

[Antiliar]

Dwalin2014, I remember that quote and it's real. The Terrasini Family probably had around 20 to 30 members in the early 1900s and most probably moved to Detroit and St. Louis, cutting down on the Family size. Eventually due to attrition it makes sense that it dropped down to two members. I think that since Terrasini is part of a mandamento they made additional members since then.

[scagghiuni]

terrasini family is part of san lorenzo mandamento that has 300 members and it is the largest so it has probaly 20 members at least

[B.]

According to D'Arco, it was 300 for the Genovese and Gambinos. 150 for the Colombos. And 125-140 for the Luccheses and Bonannos.

Other sources had different figures. Valachi, for instance, had the Genovese at over 400 at one point. Capeci's max figures were also higher in his "Idiots Guide to the Mafia" book but that was before he did the D'Arco book.

In 1962, Genovese NJ soldier Anthony "Pussy" Russo was recorded in discussion with Florida-based Cleveland soldier Anthony Randazzo, and Russo told Randazzo that the Genovese had 300 members, with 300 other men being groomed for membership. He also said that they had to keep their organization at 300 members. It is very unlikely that they had exactly 300 men in 1962 given that some men had died since 1957 when they stopped making members, but it's still a relevant estimate that backs up D'Arco's numbers 30 years later.

Also a couple years after this, when Joe Colombo took over his family he had his captains do a head count and told Greg Scarpa they had 110 soldiers. Given that it had been six or seven years since they had made any members and a number of them had died, it looks like 150 is a possible number for the Colombos cap like D'Arco said.

In the mid-1960s, Paul Sciacca was recorded telling Stefano Magaddino that the Bonannos had around 180 men. We don't know if he was including Montreal or the pro-Bonanno faction, but this info doesn't match as closely with D'Arco's numbers. Given all of the issues with the Bonannos and various sanctions placed on them, it seems possible their cap was smaller later on when D'Arco was around but who knows.

This info is significant as it came less than a decade after the five families' supposed high point of membership in the 1950s. If the Genovese for example had a cap of around 300 in 1962 like Russo said, it's unlikely that it would have been larger earlier given the mass recruitments of the 1950s. Russo's info on the Genovese is very specific, same with Colombo's info on his family. I personally don't think D'Arco is far off and that the caps either didn't change or didn't change significantly over the years.

[AlexfromSouth]

In my opinion there where more soldiers in the Lucchese familly, not to mention that they were more powerfull than the Colombo's and the Bonanno's.. At least from the late 70's/early 80's..

Found a document that states that the Brooklyn lukes had about 40 made men before the 60's..After the books opened there were I guess more soldiers (in bklyn).

[HairyKnuckles]

D'Arco claims that Lucky Luciano set the caps for all the Families. Luciano never had control over the other Families, and if anyone is going to set a cap for a borgata, it's going to be the leaders of that borgata. Maybe by the time D'Arco was an acting boss there were caps, but it's difficult to say how accurate his information is before he became a member (aside from his personal experiences). Mafiosi are well known for believing myths and passing them on.

Good post. There may have been a cap later on, from let´s say the late 1970s and 1980s but no cap before that. To the best of my knowledge, no informants from the 1950s and 1960s talked about a cap. That´s a bit surprising to me because these informants talked a lot about the rules. It looks to me that if D´Arco was aware of a cap he probably believed it had been around since the days of Lucky Luciano.

[AlexfromSouth]

D'Arco claims that Lucky Luciano set the caps for all the Families. Luciano never had control over the other Families, and if anyone is going to set a cap for a borgata, it's going to be the leaders of that borgata. Maybe by the time D'Arco was an acting boss there were caps, but it's difficult to say how accurate his information is before he became a member (aside from his personal experiences). Mafiosi are well known for believing myths and passing them on.

Good post. There may have been a cap later on, from let´s say the late 1970s and 1980s but no cap before that. To the best of my knowledge, no informants from the 1950s and 1960s talked about a cap. That´s a bit surprising to me because these informants talked a lot about the rules. It looks to me that if D´Arco was aware of a cap he probably believed it had been around since the days of Lucky Luciano.

Hey HK.

Who than set the caps for the families in the late 70's/early 80's? The boss of the family or the commision?

Thanks.

[Lupara]

The 300 number cap makes sense. It corresponds with the numbers in the 80s when the families were still very powerful and attrition wasn't the factor it is today.

[Pogo The Clown]

According to Joe Bonanno the family had 300 members when he took over in 1931. BillBonanno also had them at that number in the 60s.


Pogo

[Lupara]

According to Joe Bonanno the family had 300 members when he took over in 1931. BillBonanno also had them at that number in the 60s.


Pogo

Maranzano may have had that amount of muscle in total, including allies, but I'm not so sure that Bonanno inherited that number. For the 60s it seems quite inflated and doesn't correspond with Sciacca's statement.

[Pogo The Clown]

The 60s figure does seem inflated but I can believe the 1931 number. I'm sure all the families had many more members in those days, including many members that were not actively involved in crime. It also seems that it was relatively easier to get made in those days as you saw several members getting made when they were still very young unlike today.


Pogo

[Lupara]

The 60s figure does seem inflated but I can believe the 1931 number. I'm sure all the families had many more members in those days, including many members that were not actively involved in crime. It also seems that it was relatively easier to get made in those days as you saw several members getting made when they were still very young unlike today.


Pogo

If Bonanno really had that amount of men I just find it hard to believe how his family shrinked to more than half a few decades later. I find it hard to believe a family would allow itself to downsize so much and losing power in the process. It just doesn't make sense to me. Since the feds started counting numbers the families have more or less kept their numbers steady. Why they wouldn't do this during their height in the 30s, 40s and 50s beats me. I can believe that the families shrank a little but not that much.

[Pogo The Clown]

I think all the NY families wer larger in those days not just the Bonnanos. For example Valache had the Genovese at 450 member at one point. I think they gradually shrank as the books were closed for long periods and they became much more restrictive in bringing in new members.


Pogo

[B.]

D'Arco claims that Lucky Luciano set the caps for all the Families. Luciano never had control over the other Families, and if anyone is going to set a cap for a borgata, it's going to be the leaders of that borgata. Maybe by the time D'Arco was an acting boss there were caps, but it's difficult to say how accurate his information is before he became a member (aside from his personal experiences). Mafiosi are well known for believing myths and passing them on.

Good post. There may have been a cap later on, from let´s say the late 1970s and 1980s but no cap before that. To the best of my knowledge, no informants from the 1950s and 1960s talked about a cap. That´s a bit surprising to me because these informants talked a lot about the rules. It looks to me that if D´Arco was aware of a cap he probably believed it had been around since the days of Lucky Luciano.

I would agree except for Pussy Russo being recorded in 1962 saying the Genovese had to keep their numbers at 300.

[Antiliar]

D'Arco claims that Lucky Luciano set the caps for all the Families. Luciano never had control over the other Families, and if anyone is going to set a cap for a borgata, it's going to be the leaders of that borgata. Maybe by the time D'Arco was an acting boss there were caps, but it's difficult to say how accurate his information is before he became a member (aside from his personal experiences). Mafiosi are well known for believing myths and passing them on.

Good post. There may have been a cap later on, from let´s say the late 1970s and 1980s but no cap before that. To the best of my knowledge, no informants from the 1950s and 1960s talked about a cap. That´s a bit surprising to me because these informants talked a lot about the rules. It looks to me that if D´Arco was aware of a cap he probably believed it had been around since the days of Lucky Luciano.

I would agree except for Pussy Russo being recorded in 1962 saying the Genovese had to keep their numbers at 300.

Where did he say that?

[B.]

D'Arco claims that Lucky Luciano set the caps for all the Families. Luciano never had control over the other Families, and if anyone is going to set a cap for a borgata, it's going to be the leaders of that borgata. Maybe by the time D'Arco was an acting boss there were caps, but it's difficult to say how accurate his information is before he became a member (aside from his personal experiences). Mafiosi are well known for believing myths and passing them on.

Good post. There may have been a cap later on, from let´s say the late 1970s and 1980s but no cap before that. To the best of my knowledge, no informants from the 1950s and 1960s talked about a cap. That´s a bit surprising to me because these informants talked a lot about the rules. It looks to me that if D´Arco was aware of a cap he probably believed it had been around since the days of Lucky Luciano.

I would agree except for Pussy Russo being recorded in 1962 saying the Genovese had to keep their numbers at 300.

Where did he say that?

It's on MF. I'll try to find it later but my search limit is reached right now. It's a summary of a conversation between Russo and Anthony Randazzo.