Is Mazzone really keeping the peace ???

[Pogo The Clown]

Great articles. It is too bad for the family that the Ciancaglini-Merlino Faction didn't fall in when Stanfa took over.

Stanfa would have made most of them and they would have gotten a piece of the pie. Mike Ciancaglini would, in all likelyhood, have been promoted to Capo. Maybe the same for Merlino when he got out. Bocchino would likely have been promoted to Capo as well. So they would have had Joe Chang Jr. as UnderBoss, Piccolo as Consiglieri and Sparacio, Tripodi, Bocchino, Mike Ciancaglini and probably Merlino as Capos with guy's like Borgesi, Mazzone, Angelina, etc as some of the new Soldiers instead of the idiots and rats like Veasey, Previte, Battaglia, Bellochi, Adornetto, etc.

They would have had a good chance to rebuild the organization. For sure most of the indictments, informants and general attention would have been avoided.


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

Great articles. It is too bad for the family that the Ciancaglini-Merlino Faction didn't fall in when Stanfa took over.

Stanfa would have made most of them and they would have gotten a piece of the pie. Mike Ciancaglini would, in all likelyhood, have been promoted to Capo. Maybe the same for Merlino when he got out. Bocchino would likely have been promoted to Capo as well. So they would have had Joe Chang Jr. as UnderBoss, Piccolo as Consiglieri and Sparacio, Tripodi, Bocchino, Mike Ciancaglini and probably Merlino as Capos with guy's like Borgesi, Mazzone, Angelina, etc as some of the new Soldiers instead of the idiots and rats like Veasey, Previte, Battaglia, Bellochi, Adornetto, etc.

They would have had a good chance to rebuild the organization. For sure most of the indictments, informants and general attention would have been avoided.


Pogo

True, but 1988-1991 was a turbulent era. Tony Buck was Acting, he made Martorano acting under at the last minute. Nicky Jr had been shot and the Family was actively pursuing Merlino. All the while, no new members were being made, rumors were floating around that Philly was going to be broken up and Merlino was "with" a Colombo skipper in prison that turned out to be not true. Then Fresolone tripped up Piccolo and Licata who were facing legal problems by 91.

[B.]

Stanfa's Sicilian connections in the US were limited to the Gambino brothers and those around them, so the indictments of those guys combined with the trouble that Stanfa's friends/relatives were experiencing in Sicily nullified his ability to get help from any "zips". The Gambino crime family itself, who had advocated for him, had just dealt with the Sammy the Bull situation so no way were they going to get involved.

I am sure Tripodi is Calabrian, as you thought. The guys around Stanfa were there because he was desperate to build a crew loyal to him and he grabbed any guy who wanted to roleplay as a mobster. Imagine one of those awful B-movies about the mob and that's what his regime was like.

About the older names, Christie.... I remember we discussed the Ciancaglini you're talking about on the old board and he is definitely not closely related to the modern Ciancaglinis. Joe Sr's father was named John, like his son, and I'm not sure that the guy you found was even a brother of his. Definitely related but distantly.

I still haven't found the relation between Rosario "Sam" Pungitore and the modern Pungitores either. He wasn't Tony Sr.'s father but maybe an uncle. Sam was believed to be a high-ranking member for a time, possibly a capo.

Tony Pungitore Sr. was briefly involved in the reorganization but not sure whether he willingly dropped away or what. He was probably Joey Ciancaglini's sponsor into the family. Not sure when/why Ralph Pungitore dropped out, but he was sponsored during the 1980's though never made and is/was Joey Ciancaglini's closest friend.

I wouldn't be surprised if Bocchino was briefly the underboss as he was said to be representing Stanfa and carrying messages for him leading up to his murder but there's no info to confirm it.

[Angelo Santino]

Stanfa's Sicilian connections in the US were limited to the Gambino brothers and those around them, so the indictments of those guys combined with the trouble that Stanfa's friends/relatives were experiencing in Sicily nullified his ability to get help from any "zips". The Gambino crime family itself, who had advocated for him, had just dealt with the Sammy the Bull situation so no way were they going to get involved.

Agreed, so with that in mind, he was more American than Sicilian by that point. He had relatives in the Sicilian Mafia but nothing was ever reported to come out of that. The guys he had around him was a diverse mixture, including a few Italian born members. I'm getting at that maybe Stanfa wasn't so outta his element as he's been made out to be. He was an awful manager but he really didn't have much to work with.

I am sure Tripodi is Calabrian, as you thought. The guys around Stanfa were there because he was desperate to build a crew loyal to him and he grabbed any guy who wanted to roleplay as a mobster. Imagine one of those awful B-movies about the mob and that's what his regime was like.

He was from Cittanova, as was Adornetto. RC is very small, the Scarfos and Milanos weren't more than 10 miles from there... Not that means anything front and center, but I am a believer in chain migration.

About the older names, Christie.... I remember we discussed the Ciancaglini you're talking about on the old board and he is definitely not closely related to the modern Ciancaglinis. Joe Sr's father was named John, like his son, and I'm not sure that the guy you found was even a brother of his. Definitely related but distantly. I still haven't found the relation between Rosario "Sam" Pungitore and the modern Pungitores either. He wasn't Tony Sr.'s father but maybe an uncle. Sam was believed to be a high-ranking member for a time, possibly a capo.

Same with earlier Leonettis and Cileones. I can't make any direct connections, I hope I didn't imply so... As you know I'm delving into the early non-Sicilian element and Philadelphia is one of those black holes. I can't locate hardly anything and I know something existed there. But I've made no connections with anyone except for Scoppoletti and that's only through a relative.

I wouldn't be surprised if Bocchino was briefly the underboss as he was said to be representing Stanfa and carrying messages for him leading up to his murder but there's no info to confirm it.

I was thinking that could be possible as well. I imagine some of those guys that flipped in the 90's would be able to confirm/refute that.

[B.]

Agreed, so with that in mind, he was more American than Sicilian by that point. He had relatives in the Sicilian Mafia but nothing was ever reported to come out of that. The guys he had around him was a diverse mixture, including a few Italian born members. I'm getting at that maybe Stanfa wasn't so outta his element as he's been made out to be. He was an awful manager but he really didn't have much to work with.

I'm not so sure he was more American than Sicilian, only that his resources with Sicilian mobsters were very limited by the time he was boss. It's been suspected that he originally got interested in the importing business to traffick heroin (though it never panned out) and given who his friends and relatives were, my belief is that he was going to be Angelo Bruno's guy in that area, but Bruno's death followed by Stanfa having to go on the lam and then prison ruined his chances of becoming involved. It was probably better for him anyway, as he would have gotten busted along with all of the other zips by the mid-80's.

The real crazy thing is how his nephew Nino Giuffre testified that John Stanfa was recognized by the Caccamo family and sponsored Giuffre into the Caccamo family during a vacation to Sicily. This implies one of the following: 1) Stanfa was a member of the Caccamo family before moving to the US, 2) Stanfa was made by both the Caccamo and Philadelphia families separately, or 3) Stanfa was made by one of those two families but they both recognized him as amico nostra. We know that Angelo Bruno was recognized as amico nos when he visited Sicily so really any of the above could be possible. It may have less to do with the overarching politics of Sicily/America mob initiation and more to do with his blood relation to members in Sicily. The same probably goes for Rosario Gambino, who is a member of the Sicilian mafia while his brothers are members of the Gambino family... I have a hard time believing that they don't recognize each others' membership even if it's just among themselves.

He was from Cittanova, as was Adornetto. RC is very small, the Scarfos and Milanos weren't more than 10 miles from there... Not that means anything front and center, but I am a believer in chain migration.

Just a random side note, but Scarfo was named for the patron saint of Mammola, San Nicodemo. Scarfo Jr. confirmed this himself.

Same with earlier Leonettis and Cileones. I can't make any direct connections, I hope I didn't imply so... As you know I'm delving into the early non-Sicilian element and Philadelphia is one of those black holes. I can't locate hardly anything and I know something existed there. But I've made no connections with anyone except for Scoppoletti and that's only through a relative.

You didn't imply shit, brother! I love that you're delving into this stuff. There was a Leonetti loosely affiliated with the family in the 1920's and 30's I believe it was, but he wasn't a member. A Leonetti cousin used to post on the Real Deal many years ago and I wish he was still around because I'd love to pick his brain about some of this (dude was very reputable and never publicly posted about his relation... I don't think he personally knew Phil, at least not very well).

I have also wondered about Frank Piccolo, who was likely a member before his murder. No known connection to the famous Piccolos but he was Calabrian like them. The Piccolos were living in Brooklyn in those early years along with the Scarfos and if I remember right they came to Philly in the early-mid 1930's. Frank wasn't killed until 1939, so maybe they at least knew one another. I have also wanted to track down Tony Piccolo's father, who I believe was an older brother of Nick, Joe, and Mike Piccolo. He is on tape talking about his dad being a wiseguy in NYC in the old days.

I was thinking that could be possible as well. I imagine some of those guys that flipped in the 90's would be able to confirm/refute that.

I'm not sure that Veasey ("who the fuck is Shotsie?") or Phil Colletti ("let's get my wife involved in hits") could confirm it, but maybe someone else, like Scafidi has that knowledge. I don't think any of them were made at that time, though.

[Angelo Santino]

I am not sold on Stanfa being a "greaser who couldn't find his way to Times Square during the Parade," he was in the US for 20 years by 92. That's a long time.

Mammola would make sense. It's close to Cittanova. Calabrians moved abroad from these places and kept in contact with relatives there and compaesani abroad. The OC element was no different, they formed a national network just like the Sicilians did.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Cittano ... 38.3622818

[B.]

Not straight off the boat by any means, but what I mean is he still had limited English, preferred to socialize with other Sicilians, and kept his Sicilian identity. Most of the younger guys in the early 90's had almost no experience with Philly's Sicilian culture from decades past, so Stanfa was this aging guy who was MIA during the 1980's when they were coming up and who they had trouble communicating with. South Philly has a very distinct culture and Stanfa never really molded to it which was probably insulting to them.

[JBELL]

Not straight off the boat by any means, but what I mean is he still had limited English, preferred to socialize with other Sicilians, and kept his Sicilian identity. Most of the younger guys in the early 90's had almost no experience with Philly's Sicilian culture from decades past, so Stanfa was this aging guy who was MIA during the 1980's when they were coming up and who they had trouble communicating with. South Philly has a very distinct culture and Stanfa never really molded to it which was probably insulting to them.

Stanfa already had money too by the time he was made boss he had his own business(s) and blood family business. If he allegedly didn't know how to run a book then, he was already looked after I bet too many were starving under him because I don't think anyone stayed loyal to the guy in the end what 2 guys martines and Pagano n Piccolo well three people I guess I need to read that book again he's caught on a million wiretaps he spoke broken English as worded in the good fella tape. B do they ever release audio of those to the public or just the print?

[Angelo Santino]

Not straight off the boat by any means, but what I mean is he still had limited English, preferred to socialize with other Sicilians, and kept his Sicilian identity. Most of the younger guys in the early 90's had almost no experience with Philly's Sicilian culture from decades past, so Stanfa was this aging guy who was MIA during the 1980's when they were coming up and who they had trouble communicating with. South Philly has a very distinct culture and Stanfa never really molded to it which was probably insulting to them.

B., I'm not seeing him around Sicilians, maybe if his heart of hearts he would have preferred that but most of his foreign-born Italian associates were Calabresi, that's where the whole Cittanova discussion came in. He was older generation American Italian and his wiretaps of him talking in Italian wasn't dialect, he was talking to Adornetto who was Calabrian-American and responded in English to Stanfa talking Italian.. If Stanfa and the 2 or 3 Italian-born flunkies he had with him are zips then they were a very watered down zips.

[JBELL]

Not straight off the boat by any means, but what I mean is he still had limited English, preferred to socialize with other Sicilians, and kept his Sicilian identity. Most of the younger guys in the early 90's had almost no experience with Philly's Sicilian culture from decades past, so Stanfa was this aging guy who was MIA during the 1980's when they were coming up and who they had trouble communicating with. South Philly has a very distinct culture and Stanfa never really molded to it which was probably insulting to them.

B., I'm not seeing him around Sicilians, maybe if his heart of hearts he would have preferred that but most of his foreign-born Italian associates were Calabresi, that's where the whole Cittanova discussion came in. He was older generation American Italian and his wiretaps of him talking in Italian wasn't dialect, he was talking to Adornetto who was Calabrian-American and responded in English to Stanfa talking Italian.. If Stanfa and the 2 or 3 Italian-born flunkies he had with him are zips then they were a very watered down zips.

Stanfa said on the wiretaps that he wished his son was like his daughter because she was tougher then him which is pretty funny. Speaking of his son his pizza place didn't last long at all it was in a horrible area to begin with I'm surprised Dave S and fox 29 didn't try and walk in there with a camera and bother the kid

[Angelo Santino]

And the term zip is as varied as associate. What constitutes a zip?

Given that the term became popular in the 70's and was applied to certain Italian-born Bonanno members, it seem to take on this definition of a Mafioso from Sicily operating in America under the tutelage of an LCN group. Ceasar Bonventre or Furio Giunta type. If that's the definition of a zip, Stanfa clearly isn't that since he wasn't "imported" from Sicily to run Philadelphia.

More recently, Zip has been redefined (in gangland) to include Italian gangsters, Italian born immigrants who became gangsters in America (Cefalu) as well as Sicilian-Americans with deep ties to Sicily. Stanfa would fall in this secondary def, but it's still widely varied in terms of what constitutes a zip.

[Rocco]

Not straight off the boat by any means, but what I mean is he still had limited English, preferred to socialize with other Sicilians, and kept his Sicilian identity. Most of the younger guys in the early 90's had almost no experience with Philly's Sicilian culture from decades past, so Stanfa was this aging guy who was MIA during the 1980's when they were coming up and who they had trouble communicating with. South Philly has a very distinct culture and Stanfa never really molded to it which was probably insulting to them.

B., I'm not seeing him around Sicilians, maybe if his heart of hearts he would have preferred that but most of his foreign-born Italian associates were Calabresi, that's where the whole Cittanova discussion came in. He was older generation American Italian and his wiretaps of him talking in Italian wasn't dialect, he was talking to Adornetto who was Calabrian-American and responded in English to Stanfa talking Italian.. If Stanfa and the 2 or 3 Italian-born flunkies he had with him are zips then they were a very watered down zips.

Stanfa said on the wiretaps that he wished his son was like his daughter because she was tougher then him which is pretty funny. Speaking of his son his pizza place didn't last long at all it was in a horrible area to begin with I'm surprised Dave S and fox 29 didn't try and walk in there with a camera and bother the kid

Stanfa is all talk...last I remember his son took a bullet in his face...what did his father do that was so tough? Last I remember Stands never even pulled a trigger himself.. Stanfa hid behind a bunch of freaks. Really that video of him leaving the court house with his crew...they look like freaks who just rolled off the short bus. Feds did his son a favor by taking his old man away.

[Pogo The Clown]

I don't know about all talk. A lot of guy's got clipped on his say so during his brief time as Boss. Yeah his crew was inept but they still killed a lot of people.


Pogo

[Cheech]

killed a lot of people is relative.

[Rocco]

I don't know about all talk. A lot of guy's got clipped on his say so during his brief time as Boss. Yeah his crew was inept but they still killed a lot of people.


Pogo

Stanfa stayed at his store and fucked cantaloupes. The guy never pulled the trigger on someone.... Merlino might have liked to do blow off girls tits in the bathroom stall of nightclubs...but he pulled off some ballsy shit. Of course he had allot to live up to...lol