Five families numbers cap.

[AlexfromSouth]

Hello everybody, it's interesting, at least I think so, to see what were the original numbers cap for the five families.I know it's been said a few times that tht Gambino and Genovese had about 250-300 soldiers and the rest about 150. Is that true? Is there something more, and does anybody know the close exact numbers by the decades?

Thanks to everyone.

[Wiseguy]

According to D'Arco, it was 300 for the Genovese and Gambinos. 150 for the Colombos. And 125-140 for the Luccheses and Bonannos.

Other sources had different figures. Valachi, for instance, had the Genovese at over 400 at one point. Capeci's max figures were also higher in his "Idiots Guide to the Mafia" book but that was before he did the D'Arco book.

[AlexfromSouth]

Why do you think they made such a big diference betwen Gambino/genovese and the others?
And another thing, I always thought the Luccheses had the 3rd numbers count of the 5 fams.Seemed to allways be implied.

[Wiseguy]

Why do you think they made such a big diference betwen Gambino/genovese and the others?
And another thing, I always thought the Luccheses had the 3rd numbers count of the 5 fams.Seemed to allways be implied.

Whatever the max was for the Genovese and Gambinos, they were already the two largest families when the cap was put in place. The others were smaller at the time so their caps reflected that too.

As for the Luccheses, I see a lot of people on these forums saying they have always been the third largest/most powerful family but I'm not sure that's always been the case. At times they have but I think there's been a fluctuation in size and position of the three smaller families to some extent. I've read in more than a few places that the Luccheses were the smallest family at certain points. But the difference in membership has been relatively minimal between the three, as it is today.

[AlexfromSouth]

Well, it's allways on the board so one could get the impression that that is the case.Thank you for your input.

[Lupara]

According to D'Arco, it was 300 for the Genovese and Gambinos. 150 for the Colombos. And 125-140 for the Luccheses and Bonannos.

Did he provide a reason as to why the Bonannos and Luccheses were capped at 10 guys less than the Colombos? Sounds kind of silly to me.

[Antiliar]

D'Arco claims that Lucky Luciano set the caps for all the Families. Luciano never had control over the other Families, and if anyone is going to set a cap for a borgata, it's going to be the leaders of that borgata. Maybe by the time D'Arco was an acting boss there were caps, but it's difficult to say how accurate his information is before he became a member (aside from his personal experiences). Mafiosi are well known for believing myths and passing them on.

[johnny_scootch]

D'Arco claims that Lucky Luciano set the caps for all the Families. Luciano never had control over the other Families, and if anyone is going to set a cap for a borgata, it's going to be the leaders of that borgata. Maybe by the time D'Arco was an acting boss there were caps, but it's difficult to say how accurate his information is before he became a member (aside from his personal experiences). Mafiosi are well known for believing myths and passing them on.

I took what he said as caps were put in place when they formed the commission to prevent families from initiating members in secret as was being done during the castellamaresi war. They wanted to preserve the balance of power that had been established when they formed the commission. Its also possible that at this time the tradition of passing the list was created as another way of preventing members from being initiated secretly.

[Antiliar]

The tradition of passing around a list of names goes back to Sicily. I just don't think D'Arco's information about the caps is correct. He may have been told that, but I'm pretty sure that in 1931 the numbers were much higher, but shrunk down do to attrition. They didn't make new members as fast as the old ones died off, and that gave way to the smaller numbers that D'Arco dealt with when he was the acting boss.

[johnny_scootch]

The tradition of passing around a list of names goes back to Sicily.

Is that right? I figured that with he extremely high number of families in Sicily it'd be impossible to pass a list to all the bosses let alone the captains. Or do they just keep the list within the mandamento?

How many families in Sicily right now 60-70 prob even more then that?

[Antiliar]

The tradition of passing around a list of names goes back to Sicily.

Is that right? I figured that with he extremely high number of families in Sicily it'd be impossible to pass a list to all the bosses let alone the captains. Or do they just keep the list within the mandamento?

How many families in Sicily right now 60-70 prob even more then that?

They didn't pass a name around all over Sicily, just within cities where there was more than one borgata, like Palermo. Just like they pass names around the Families in New York, but it's not necessary in Chicago or Boston.

[toto]

About 70 mafia families in province of Palermo. It is a rule in Cosa Nostra only Palermo city can have more than one mafia family.

[Laurentian]

About 70 mafia families in province of Palermo. It is a rule in Cosa Nostra only Palermo city can have more than one mafia family.

I think in Palermo Cosa Nostra used to have between 10 and 15 borgate, in the 1980s and up. Am I right?

[toto]

About 70 mafia families in province of Palermo. It is a rule in Cosa Nostra only Palermo city can have more than one mafia family.

I think in Palermo Cosa Nostra used to have between 10 and 15 borgate, in the 1980s and up. Am I right?

I should research but just from memory I can say it is probably not right. Only in recent years two new families were created: Kalsa and Zen by Lo Piccolo and his son who had a friendship with many guys from there.

All other families are the same for at least 50 years I think.

[Laurentian]

About 70 mafia families in province of Palermo. It is a rule in Cosa Nostra only Palermo city can have more than one mafia family.

I think in Palermo Cosa Nostra used to have between 10 and 15 borgate, in the 1980s and up. Am I right?

I should research but just from memory I can say it is probably not right. Only in recent years two new families were created: Kalsa and Zen by Lo Piccolo and his son who had a friendship with many guys from there.

All other families are the same for at least 50 years I think.

Thanks for your reply. At any event these borgate, whatever the number they are in the city, they are relatively small entities, isn't?