Not even from the East Coast. Can't find any evidence of the NJ Family before the 1920s, so maybe it was under the radar for 10 or 20 years at most, but I doubt it. The Mineo/Profaci Family was formed in 1911, the Morello/Masseria/Reina Family started in the mid to late 1890s, the Bonannos started somewhere between 1898 and 1906, and the Lupo/D'Aquila/Gambino Family goes back to the 1860s-1880s.toto wrote:I guess they mean from the East coast area.
Anthony Rotondo 2005 cross-examination
Moderator: Capos
Re: Anthony Rotondo 2005 cross-examination
Re: Anthony Rotondo 2005 cross-examination
To make it more confusing, D'Arco said that the Lucchese family can be traced to the Jersey family. He said this information came from his relative and sponsor Joe Schiavo, who was close to Tommy Lucchese and had a long history in the organization. It's likely that some things got lost in translation, as Schiavo would have heard it from someone else and D'Arco was remembering something that was told to him many years earlier. Still, he has no reason to make this up so there is something there, maybe not accurate, but it's something. And by citing Schiavo as the source, that makes it clear that it wasn't something he picked up after hearing about Rotondo's testimony.
One thing to keep in mind is that the earliest known DeCavalcante members did not start out in Elizabeth, they started out in New York and then settled into Elizabeth. That's assuming that other early unidentified members didn't live in other US cities (Rick has mentioned potential connections between the DeCavalcantes and the mysterious Birmingham family). So I don't think it's fair to say that the claim is purely about "New Jersey" being the first family. It's about the family that would later come to settle in NJ, but not necessarily "NJ".
There is also the claim Rotondo made to Italian authorities that Phil Bacino (Tony Bello) was an early DeCavalcante boss, which everyone knows I love to bring up. Bacino lived in New York for a time before going to Illinois where he ran with high-ranking Ribera mafioso Pasqualino LoLordo (whose brother Joseph would flee Chicago after Pasquale's murder and become a DeCavalcante capo in New York). I don't know why Rotondo would just throw Bacino's name out there for no reason, so again there is something there, we just don't know what. One possibility is that during Bacino's brief stay in New York, he was appointed boss for a short time OR he held the official boss title remotely. I know he is identified as a Chicago soldier at a later point, but I've never seen anything that 100% confirms his membership with Chicago, only business/racket relationships to Chicago (Rick or someone might have something more concrete). It's also possible he later stepped down in favor of Amari and joined Chicago. Just too many unknowns, but again there is something there.
I check out social media a bit to see what relationships different blood families have to one another. I can tell you that the Bacinos of Calumet City and Indiana, who are direct descendants of Phil Bacino, are still in close contact with DeCavalcante family relatives in New Jersey. And this is generations removed. I can tell you with 100% certainty that the Bacinos of IL/IN are in regular contact with the Majuris (who are Corleonese on the father's side, but possibly have a Ribera connection), the Riggis, and other very well-known NJ families in 2016. These are legitimate people, just relatives, but I think it's very telling how strong these ties are.
My personal theory is that the early DeCavalcante did not follow the common model of City>Family until much later. I think the Ribera connections and relationships were so strong that it's more than possible they could have had someone out of state hold the official boss title, such as Bacino or Lolordo before him. One non-member informant talks about Amari's move to Elizabeth in the 1920s and describes Amari as the boss, but this was not a member, simply someone who lived in Elizabeth and had a superficial view of the family. Naturally Amari was the leader in Elizabeth, but when it comes to the national scene and the inner-workings of the organization it doesn't mean that Amari was the "official boss" at that time.
There is also the fact that the DeCavalcantes have held something of an "open door" policy with the Ribera family, with members able to go between them. If it's possible for them to keep that level of trust between two different countries across the ocean, I don't think it's too hard to believe that the family could have had a leader in another state, especially in the early days when most if not all of the members were first generation immigrants from the same small Sicilian town who may have all actually been members of the Ribera family when they left. Amari and Bacino were photographed together in Ribera in the 1950s at the opening of the orphanage (I posted this on the old board but can't find it now), so we know they maintained a relationship for many years. Bacino's brother Luciano was also a member of the Ribera famil. Let's not ignore the Connecticut operations, either, where the DeCavalcantes had a separate underboss along with a captain and several members who remained loyal until the end... reading the DeCav tapes from the 1960s, having a second underboss and operations throughout Connecitcut seems totally natural to everyone involved. Who knows what kind of weird structure this group had before that.
IF they were the first US family, I think it's because they were very small and made up primarily of immigrants from the same town. They didn't necessarily need a strong Sicilian immigrant community, only those paesan relationships. The DeCavalcantes as a group have never had the widespread dominance in different industries like the NY families, they have only had control over their union in Elizabeth and been more mid-tier when it comes to illegal rackets, barring a couple exceptions. I say that because it's important to understand that being the "first family" doesn't mean they were the first to become Americanized or to follow the American model of diversifying and expanding.
What I have trouble with is D'Arco's claim that the Lucchese family was a part of this group at one point, especially with them having come from the Morello group... but then again, the DeCavalcantes do have some Corleone connections, including Frank Majuri (who was originally from New York) using the alias "Frank Gagliano". I'm a broken record, but having a high-ranking DeCavalcante member having a Corleonesi father and using the alias "Gagliano" does make you wonder if there is a connection.
One thing to keep in mind is that the earliest known DeCavalcante members did not start out in Elizabeth, they started out in New York and then settled into Elizabeth. That's assuming that other early unidentified members didn't live in other US cities (Rick has mentioned potential connections between the DeCavalcantes and the mysterious Birmingham family). So I don't think it's fair to say that the claim is purely about "New Jersey" being the first family. It's about the family that would later come to settle in NJ, but not necessarily "NJ".
There is also the claim Rotondo made to Italian authorities that Phil Bacino (Tony Bello) was an early DeCavalcante boss, which everyone knows I love to bring up. Bacino lived in New York for a time before going to Illinois where he ran with high-ranking Ribera mafioso Pasqualino LoLordo (whose brother Joseph would flee Chicago after Pasquale's murder and become a DeCavalcante capo in New York). I don't know why Rotondo would just throw Bacino's name out there for no reason, so again there is something there, we just don't know what. One possibility is that during Bacino's brief stay in New York, he was appointed boss for a short time OR he held the official boss title remotely. I know he is identified as a Chicago soldier at a later point, but I've never seen anything that 100% confirms his membership with Chicago, only business/racket relationships to Chicago (Rick or someone might have something more concrete). It's also possible he later stepped down in favor of Amari and joined Chicago. Just too many unknowns, but again there is something there.
I check out social media a bit to see what relationships different blood families have to one another. I can tell you that the Bacinos of Calumet City and Indiana, who are direct descendants of Phil Bacino, are still in close contact with DeCavalcante family relatives in New Jersey. And this is generations removed. I can tell you with 100% certainty that the Bacinos of IL/IN are in regular contact with the Majuris (who are Corleonese on the father's side, but possibly have a Ribera connection), the Riggis, and other very well-known NJ families in 2016. These are legitimate people, just relatives, but I think it's very telling how strong these ties are.
My personal theory is that the early DeCavalcante did not follow the common model of City>Family until much later. I think the Ribera connections and relationships were so strong that it's more than possible they could have had someone out of state hold the official boss title, such as Bacino or Lolordo before him. One non-member informant talks about Amari's move to Elizabeth in the 1920s and describes Amari as the boss, but this was not a member, simply someone who lived in Elizabeth and had a superficial view of the family. Naturally Amari was the leader in Elizabeth, but when it comes to the national scene and the inner-workings of the organization it doesn't mean that Amari was the "official boss" at that time.
There is also the fact that the DeCavalcantes have held something of an "open door" policy with the Ribera family, with members able to go between them. If it's possible for them to keep that level of trust between two different countries across the ocean, I don't think it's too hard to believe that the family could have had a leader in another state, especially in the early days when most if not all of the members were first generation immigrants from the same small Sicilian town who may have all actually been members of the Ribera family when they left. Amari and Bacino were photographed together in Ribera in the 1950s at the opening of the orphanage (I posted this on the old board but can't find it now), so we know they maintained a relationship for many years. Bacino's brother Luciano was also a member of the Ribera famil. Let's not ignore the Connecticut operations, either, where the DeCavalcantes had a separate underboss along with a captain and several members who remained loyal until the end... reading the DeCav tapes from the 1960s, having a second underboss and operations throughout Connecitcut seems totally natural to everyone involved. Who knows what kind of weird structure this group had before that.
IF they were the first US family, I think it's because they were very small and made up primarily of immigrants from the same town. They didn't necessarily need a strong Sicilian immigrant community, only those paesan relationships. The DeCavalcantes as a group have never had the widespread dominance in different industries like the NY families, they have only had control over their union in Elizabeth and been more mid-tier when it comes to illegal rackets, barring a couple exceptions. I say that because it's important to understand that being the "first family" doesn't mean they were the first to become Americanized or to follow the American model of diversifying and expanding.
What I have trouble with is D'Arco's claim that the Lucchese family was a part of this group at one point, especially with them having come from the Morello group... but then again, the DeCavalcantes do have some Corleone connections, including Frank Majuri (who was originally from New York) using the alias "Frank Gagliano". I'm a broken record, but having a high-ranking DeCavalcante member having a Corleonesi father and using the alias "Gagliano" does make you wonder if there is a connection.
Re: Anthony Rotondo 2005 cross-examination
B, you must have forgot that I am Rick 
I can say with certainty that Phil Bacino was in the Chicago Heights street crew. He was close with James De George, who was the North Side boss before Ross Prio, but retired to Wisconsin after getting in trouble. De Georgio was also from Ribera (he was not related to Vito DiGiorgio, who came from Borgetto).
I can say with certainty that Phil Bacino was in the Chicago Heights street crew. He was close with James De George, who was the North Side boss before Ross Prio, but retired to Wisconsin after getting in trouble. De Georgio was also from Ribera (he was not related to Vito DiGiorgio, who came from Borgetto).
Re: Anthony Rotondo 2005 cross-examination
Oh no, I remember. My post wasn't meant to be directed at you, just the general topic of the first family / origin of DeCavs. A lot of re-hash but I like to rethink these things every time I hear a new bit.
It sounds like the day earlier is when Rotondo talked about them being the first US family, which is why the attorney brings it up during cross-exam in reference to Gotti taking them over. Would be good to see what Rotondo's actual words were the day earlier and what the context was for bringing that up. There might be a lot more history and at least some good leads that have come out during the testimony of guys like Rotondo and Palermo.
Here is something else to consider about the DeCavalcantes:
"...the oldest of the 24 United States-based families of La Cosa Nostra, tracing its origins as a sustained criminal group as far back as early in the first quarter of the 20th Century." - 2004 NJ State Commission of Investigation
This was published a year before Rotondo's above testimony, so maybe they got this info from an earlier court appearance or from his 302s. Maybe they got it from D'Arco. Maybe they got it from elsewhere? The "first quarter of the 20th century" line is pretty meaningless, as other groups were already active then. These kinds of reports in my experience aren't the most historically accurate, either, though. What stands out is that it's yet another "authority" claiming the DeCavalcantes are the oldest group.
It sounds like the day earlier is when Rotondo talked about them being the first US family, which is why the attorney brings it up during cross-exam in reference to Gotti taking them over. Would be good to see what Rotondo's actual words were the day earlier and what the context was for bringing that up. There might be a lot more history and at least some good leads that have come out during the testimony of guys like Rotondo and Palermo.
Here is something else to consider about the DeCavalcantes:
"...the oldest of the 24 United States-based families of La Cosa Nostra, tracing its origins as a sustained criminal group as far back as early in the first quarter of the 20th Century." - 2004 NJ State Commission of Investigation
This was published a year before Rotondo's above testimony, so maybe they got this info from an earlier court appearance or from his 302s. Maybe they got it from D'Arco. Maybe they got it from elsewhere? The "first quarter of the 20th century" line is pretty meaningless, as other groups were already active then. These kinds of reports in my experience aren't the most historically accurate, either, though. What stands out is that it's yet another "authority" claiming the DeCavalcantes are the oldest group.
Re: Anthony Rotondo 2005 cross-examination
Yes, I've been wanting to get the Palermo testimony too. That would be great. I'd like to encourage Scott D to interview them and ask them specific questions with prompts. Whatever the case, from my research I've found nothing to substantiate the claim that the Elizabeth Family existed before the 1920s. I'm open to correction, but so far I'm not seeing it.
Re: Anthony Rotondo 2005 cross-examination
Interviews with Rotondo or Palermo would be essential to writing any kind of history about the "mob in NJ" (the irony being that they were both lifelong NYC residents) at this point. There's just no other source of info out there right now. I wonder if they ever heard anything about the Newark family, too. Supposedly Rotondo can put names on faces of DeCavalcante members going back to the time he was a little boy. Even if his info isn't the absolute truth it could lead somewhere.Antiliar wrote:Yes, I've been wanting to get the Palermo testimony too. That would be great. I'd like to encourage Scott D to interview them and ask them specific questions with prompts. Whatever the case, from my research I've found nothing to substantiate the claim that the Elizabeth Family existed before the 1920s. I'm open to correction, but so far I'm not seeing it.
Thanks for the info on Bacino, too.
I have to believe there are some things related to the origins / formations of the mob here that don't follow any logic or make sense based on geographic data or historical info that is currently out there. It's rough when you hit a wall and know there is something just a little ways past it but can't get there. The worst thing you can do is start acting like you know what's past it, though. Too bad we banned Giacomo Vacari -- he could have told us how the DeCavs started and who the first bosses were.
Re: Anthony Rotondo 2005 cross-examination
Giacomo Vicari could have told us who the bosses before the bosses were.
Re: Anthony Rotondo 2005 cross-examination
Phil Bacino was Pasquale Lolordo's underboss and when Lolordo died Bacino became boss and named Phil Amari his underboss and street boss in New Jersey. In the years after the Castellammarese war when everything settled, Bacino stepped down because the mafia was becoming more regional and became a soldier in the Chicago family. Amari became boss and named Frank Majuri underboss, the head of a Corleonesi faction that had originally been aligned with the Morello family. The DeCavalcantes were allowed to have two underbosses because they were the first family in the US and it was a showing of respect.Antiliar wrote:Giacomo Vicari could have told us who the bosses before the bosses were.
This is easy.
Re: Anthony Rotondo 2005 cross-examination
And then they branch out in San Jose.
Q: By the way, what's your source for all that information?
A: I made it up.
Q: By the way, what's your source for all that information?
A: I made it up.
-
brianwellbrock
- Straightened out
- Posts: 453
- Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:02 am
Re: Anthony Rotondo 2005 cross-examination
Was Rotondo initially arrested in theDec 99 bust ot October 2000? If its the former than how did he continue extorting places from jail? Or was he granted bail and out on the streets before deciding to flip? I believe Capo was the first to roll than Palermo?
Re: Anthony Rotondo 2005 cross-examination
Stagno got caught saying something similiar i think?
Salude!
Re: Anthony Rotondo 2005 cross-examination
Not related to Jersey, but along similar lines:
http://citypaper.net/articles/2004-03-04/cb2.shtml
This is an article about Billy D'Elia meeting with Joe Ligambi back in 2004, and it mentions that D'Elia runs the oldest crime family in Pennsylvania, which was "founded in the 1880s by two Sicilian immigrants."
Has anyone ever heard of the Bufalinos being the first PA family or know where this might have come from? I know it's just a City Paper article but it is oddly specific.
http://citypaper.net/articles/2004-03-04/cb2.shtml
This is an article about Billy D'Elia meeting with Joe Ligambi back in 2004, and it mentions that D'Elia runs the oldest crime family in Pennsylvania, which was "founded in the 1880s by two Sicilian immigrants."
Has anyone ever heard of the Bufalinos being the first PA family or know where this might have come from? I know it's just a City Paper article but it is oddly specific.
Re: Anthony Rotondo 2005 cross-examination
The Elizabeth family is formed later but its possible a family was formed firstly by those who came over first and thats what they mean. According to what Giovanni Brusca said Cosa Nostra in America is formed primarily by mafiosi from Agrigento. So perhaps some guys from Ribera formed a family first and joined by some Corleone guys and then the other families were formed after either in ignorance of the existence of this one or after some disputes.
I got no evidence to support such a hypothesis.
If somebody interviews Rotondo they need to show the pictures of Pippo Bono's wedding. At least we can be clear about the two guys we're unsure about on the DeCavalcante table. And maybe some of the others - Rotondo's sister I believe is married to a Cangialosi but I don't know if it's a relative of Johnny who was part of the pizza connection.
I got no evidence to support such a hypothesis.
If somebody interviews Rotondo they need to show the pictures of Pippo Bono's wedding. At least we can be clear about the two guys we're unsure about on the DeCavalcante table. And maybe some of the others - Rotondo's sister I believe is married to a Cangialosi but I don't know if it's a relative of Johnny who was part of the pizza connection.
-
Pogo The Clown
- Men Of Mayhem
- Posts: 14146
- Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:02 am
Re: Anthony Rotondo 2005 cross-examination
brianwellbrock wrote:Was Rotondo initially arrested in theDec 99 bust ot October 2000? If its the former than how did he continue extorting places from jail? Or was he granted bail and out on the streets before deciding to flip? I believe Capo was the first to roll than Palermo?
He was nabbed in the 1999 bust. I don't remember if he got bail. I don't think so. Capo was the first to flip followed by Palermo. Rotondo flipped latter on in 2002
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
-
Angelo Santino
- Filthy Few
- Posts: 6564
- Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:15 am
Re: Anthony Rotondo 2005 cross-examination
The Palermitan's were dominant in early New Orleans and New York, in New York there was a Sciaccatani element on Elizabeth St, E 39th and up to Harlem. I would imagine if the Lonardos were connected with anyone before CL it would have been the Palermitan's whom the Sciaccatani fell under.toto wrote:The Elizabeth family is formed later but its possible a family was formed firstly by those who came over first and thats what they mean. According to what Giovanni Brusca said Cosa Nostra in America is formed primarily by mafiosi from Agrigento. So perhaps some guys from Ribera formed a family first and joined by some Corleone guys and then the other families were formed after either in ignorance of the existence of this one or after some disputes.
I got no evidence to support such a hypothesis.
If somebody interviews Rotondo they need to show the pictures of Pippo Bono's wedding. At least we can be clear about the two guys we're unsure about on the DeCavalcante table. And maybe some of the others - Rotondo's sister I believe is married to a Cangialosi but I don't know if it's a relative of Johnny who was part of the pizza connection.
The Mafia setup has always revolved around territorial jurisdiction, both in Italy and the Americas. Family influence into other areas can be expanded in the form of crews but if a crew becomes too large it can go through the legal mafia measure of becoming it's own independent family, this happens rarely and is now even more rare.
Some time ago I went through the demographics of the Elizabeth/Newark Italo-population of its 4 Italo-quarters. Sicilians arrived later, the bulk of Elizabeth were mainland transplants from Mulberry Bend prior to 1900. We all agree that the Riberesi brought the mafia to Elizabeth, how is that possible in 1890 when it was nothing but Napoletan? The Colombos came from the Gambinos, they don't claim to be the oldest group and neither do the Gambinos for that matter. And mafia groups do not relocate en masse, it's a result of chain migration, not some pre-planned effort.