Current Cleveland Scene + Carmine Angnello

[FriendofHenry]

Patmatress for you what must do the left made men ?
Make a group suicide ? Half all in their 70s and for sure enjoy the money that made apart,stay at the social club and remember the old glorious day when rules on Cleveland and youngstown and whacking the Nardi/Greene gang.

your like talking to a dead horse...

I gave it a shot a couple of months ago. Unfortunately Furio is what my Uncle called me: "Pratico"

I think he has watched to many sopranos episodes... Just sittin around in a social club countin money from the 70s and reminiscing about the Danny Greene hit... Like wow get real dude... Does anyone know how old furio is? He seems to have the imagination of a 6 year old

You should love this as I believe that Furio lives in Italy. Who better to know about Cleveland that a guy that lives thousands of miles away

[phatmatress777]

Patmatress for you what must do the left made men ?
Make a group suicide ? Half all in their 70s and for sure enjoy the money that made apart,stay at the social club and remember the old glorious day when rules on Cleveland and youngstown and whacking the Nardi/Greene gang.

your like talking to a dead horse...

I gave it a shot a couple of months ago. Unfortunately Furio is what my Uncle called me: "Pratico"

I think he has watched to many sopranos episodes... Just sittin around in a social club countin money from the 70s and reminiscing about the Danny Greene hit... Like wow get real dude... Does anyone know how old furio is? He seems to have the imagination of a 6 year old

You should love this as I believe that Furio lives in Italy. Who better to know about Cleveland that a guy that lives thousands of miles away

lol for sure lol it's like when I see people from other countries on here spouting off about American politics claiming they support this person or that person... Like how can you support an American politician when your not a citizen of this country? It just makes no sense to me

[SonnyBlackstein]

You should love this as I believe that Furio lives in Italy. Who better to know about Cleveland that a guy that lives thousands of miles away

When was Furio ever saying he knew better about Cleveland than anyone here?
As is rather obvious English is not his first language. The impression I got was he was listing the remaining Cleveland members.
Why you guys believe he deserves to be shat on repeatedly is beyond me.

Its similar to the behaviour exhibited towards Bronx.
Smug, superior attitude on this board which is simply uncalled for.

lol for sure lol it's like when I see people from other countries on here spouting off about American politics claiming they support this person or that person... Like how can you support an American politician when your not a citizen of this country? It just makes no sense to me

Seriously?
I wouldve thought thats rather obvious. Because what the US does has a huge effect, direct and indirect on the rest of the world. You think what the US does doesnt affect Mexico? Canada (the US is Canada's largest trading partner). That Trump wanting to tear up NAFTA or build a wall wouldnt affect opinion in these countires? That the middle east is MILDLY interested on what America's foriegn policy will be for the next decade? That Europe under NATO with Putin flexing his muscles isnt slightly interested in merica's poistion towards Russia? That That the Russians themselves arent curious? That China and Japan, being the biggest US treasury bond holders in the world arent interested in US fiscal and interest rate policy? That Australia and New Zealand which follwed the US into Vietnam and whos current military security are directly entwined with the US are interested whether the US will have a passive or aggressive relationship with China?

I could go on but I think you get the point.

[phatmatress777]

Furio posts non sense 90 percent of the time... But what I'm getting at is you can't vote in this country so why would you rally for a particular person is what I'm getting... I understand that United States leads the world in many different subjects but you can't vote other countries kind of have to go with the flow... And it's not the American citizens that decide who is president... That's what I was asking


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[JCB1977]

That's what remain

Boss: Joseph "Joe Loose" Iacobacci

Soldiers:

James "Jimmy" Comella b.1960
William "Billy" DeNova b.1940
William "Billy D" "Dileno b.1937
John Iorillo b.1944
Ronald Lucarelli Jr b.1958
Russell "Rusty" Massetta b.1952
Nicholas "Nick" Nardi b.1926
John Oliverio b.1952
Russell Papalardo b.1941
Sam Sirna
Anthony Velotta b.1941

Furio, there is no family anymore--how many times do we have to go through this? Plus, some of these guys you mention have been dead for a while

Jbc I know that the family is dead. I just put thr name of the left made men.

Hey Furio, the only made guys I see from this list is Joe Iacobacci, Russell Papalardo and Nick Nardi. Nardi died in 2014 and hasn't been active since the 1970's. In NO way are any of the other associates made. You forgot to mention Ronald "Ronnie the Crab" Carabbia, who is still alive but has been inactive since 1978

[Stroccos]

That's what remain

Boss: Joseph "Joe Loose" Iacobacci

Soldiers:

James "Jimmy" Comella b.1960
William "Billy" DeNova b.1940
William "Billy D" "Dileno b.1937
John Iorillo b.1944
Ronald Lucarelli Jr b.1958
Russell "Rusty" Massetta b.1952
Nicholas "Nick" Nardi b.1926
John Oliverio b.1952
Russell Papalardo b.1941
Sam Sirna
Anthony Velotta b.1941

Furio, there is no family anymore--how many times do we have to go through this? Plus, some of these guys you mention have been dead for a while

Jbc I know that the family is dead. I just put thr name of the left made men.

Hey Furio, the only made guys I see from this list is Joe Iacobacci, Russell Papalardo and Nick Nardi. Nardi died in 2014 and hasn't been active since the 1970's. In NO way are any of the other associates made. You forgot to mention Ronald "Ronnie the Crab" Carabbia, who is still alive but has been inactive since 1978

Nick nardi was ousted from the teamsters in the 90's for associating with organized crime figures , his cousins Pete and Carmen Milano .

[phatmatress777]

That's what remain

Boss: Joseph "Joe Loose" Iacobacci

Soldiers:

James "Jimmy" Comella b.1960
William "Billy" DeNova b.1940
William "Billy D" "Dileno b.1937
John Iorillo b.1944
Ronald Lucarelli Jr b.1958
Russell "Rusty" Massetta b.1952
Nicholas "Nick" Nardi b.1926
John Oliverio b.1952
Russell Papalardo b.1941
Sam Sirna
Anthony Velotta b.1941

Furio, there is no family anymore--how many times do we have to go through this? Plus, some of these guys you mention have been dead for a while

Jbc I know that the family is dead. I just put thr name of the left made men.

Hey Furio, the only made guys I see from this list is Joe Iacobacci, Russell Papalardo and Nick Nardi. Nardi died in 2014 and hasn't been active since the 1970's. In NO way are any of the other associates made. You forgot to mention Ronald "Ronnie the Crab" Carabbia, who is still alive but has been inactive since 1978

Nick nardi was ousted from the teamsters in the 90's for associating with organized crime figures , his cousins Pete and Carmen Milano .

milano got out of prison in 91, and seemed to be active until about 97 right around the same time Youngstown and Pittsburgh went under... Cleveland always seemed to have relations in the Los Angeles crime family

[B.]

Its similar to the behaviour exhibited towards Bronx.
Smug, superior attitude on this board which is simply uncalled for.

There's no comparison. Bronx claims to have inside knowledge and personal relationships with countless mob members going back ~50 years, plus "previously unknown" info about the NY mob ~100 years ago. People question this to different degrees, sometimes harshly, while other people blindly accept everything he says.

Furio posts charts he finds online and says a few things in broken English. He doesn't claim any inside scoop, but his persistence and ignorance annoys people. Personally he doesn't bother me at all... it's more funny.

On another note, this is a debate I know I've had with Wiseguy before, but I think some people can understand it better than others:

There is a difference between a "viable criminal organization" and a "mafia family". I am in full agreement that there are few Cosa Nostra families left that could be considered viable criminal organizations. However, as long as there is a hierarchy and membership in place, and those members can be introduced to members of other families and say "I'm with so-and-so," that is all it takes to qualify as a family. It doesn't mean they're NOT a shadow of what they once were and on the verge of extinction, but that is still what it means to be a mafia family.

I'm not talking about Cleveland here, I don't know anything about them, I'm only talking about a family in its most basic form because I think some people here still equate the criminal enterprise with the organization itself. Just like it's not a rule that the membership kick up tribute to the boss, it's also not essential for the organization to be engaged in lucrative criminal enterprises in order to qualify as a family. Of course the lines are often blurred and the history of the mafia is filled with criminals, tribute-demanding bosses, and killers, but the point still stands.

I recommend reading Joe Bonanno's book for an exaggerated take on it, or Antonino Calderone's book for a more cynical but practical take. There are countless other resources for understanding it, too, but I feel both of those guys explain the organization very well.

[Stroccos]

Any idea when nick nardi got made ? After John was blown up?
Assuming if John nardi was never made , he certainly outranked nick . He whacked that union official the escapes me at the moment . To put his brother in that spot .
A

[JCB1977]

Any idea when nick nardi got made ? After John was blown up?
Assuming if John nardi was never made , he certainly outranked nick . He whacked that union official the escapes me at the moment . To put his brother in that spot .
A

From my understanding, Nick was buttoned to tighten up control of the unions. I've spoken to FBI agents who said he was a member and other FBI agents who said they're not sure.

[FriendofFamily]

I don't know where to jump in on this but most of the remains are just that - remains.

Most of the Old guys are guess what - DEAD - and the Living Old Guys are just happy somewhat to be alive and just doing what they are doing.

So say for speculation Young guys ran into one of the "Made Guys" So this one Made Guy is going to Make these new Guys "Made" - based on what?

nothing follows tradition - it is not the way it is done

you could be a criminal enterprise but you aren't "Mafia"

Just my opinion and I can easily be persuaded not to have any opinion on this thread

[Angelo Santino]

Part of the problem or misunderstanding is that people equate numbers to power. That might be the case in NYC where each family had to deal with 4 other groups and naturally wanted to bring in the best before another group did. Cleveland had to contend with Pittsburgh and Buffalo, both areas being two hours away. (We'll leave out the Youngstown wars over the years). But Cleveland had the entire state of Ohio and didn't need to 'beef' up it's ranks. That's where you had captains and in some cases soldiers acting as representatives over certain areas. Those guys can have people with them, crews if you'd like, but smaller memberships = a larger cut of income.

Mafia groups have always tried to maintain a certain equilibrium with membership. You don't see a boss making 30 new members en masse just to beef up. Allan May delved into this years ago (I don't agree with everything but he makes some good points.):

http://www.americanmafia.com/Allan_May_7-24-00.html

Ray Ferritto, the Mob informant credited with the murder of Cleveland mobster Danny Greene, told British journalist Martin Short during the taping of the “Crime, Inc.” documentaries, that by killing Greene he would then become a made member and share in the profits. At the time of Cleveland boss John Scalish’s death, Cleveland had very few made members left, and most of them were old men. I believe the reason for this is like Ferritto said, you become made and you get to share in the profits. The math goes like this; the fewer made members to share the profits, the bigger the cut. Even when the bombing war broke out in the mid-1970s and the Cleveland Family decided to make new members, did they initiate younger men like Eugene Ciasullo, Allie Calabrese, or Butchie Cisternino? No they initiated John Calandra, who was 60 years old, and Anthony Libertore who was 56.

My point is, I just don’t understand why people feel that the number of initiated mob members is so important. It’s like asking how many members of the Cleveland Indians are Latino. To me it would seem that the overall strength of a gang should include all members – made members, as well as those considered associates. Are we not to consider associates equally important members of the gang? Look at people over the years who have fallen into this category: Jimmy “the Gent” Burke, who Robert DeNiro made famous in “Goodfellas,” Alex “Shondor” Birns in Cleveland, “Fat Herbie” Blitzstein in Las Vegas, Joe Barboza in Boston, and Jesse Stoneking in St. Louis, to name a few.

Even the counting of associates is difficult. What constitutes an associate? How does one become an associate? Do I just have to slap someone around? Do I have to shoot someone? Do I have to do prison time? How long do I have to be associated before I become an associate? Do I have to be an income producer, or can I just murder someone?

[Five Felonies]

Part of the problem or misunderstanding is that people equate numbers to power.

i think some might also get a bit confused seeing how from my limited memory there seem to be a number of small groups/clans/families in italy that might only have a dozen or so made guys but are still considered a viable and ongoing criminal enterprise where as in america by the time a family gets to that point general attrition has assured that things are pretty much over aside from a few guys involved in a few things from time to time, what's left in kc seems to fit this mold pretty well.

[Angelo Santino]

Part of the problem or misunderstanding is that people equate numbers to power.

i think some might also get a bit confused seeing how from my limited memory there seem to be a number of small groups/clans/families in italy that might only have a dozen or so made guys but are still considered a viable and ongoing criminal enterprise where as in america by the time a family gets to that point general attrition has assured that things are pretty much over aside from a few guys involved in a few things from time to time, what's left in kc seems to fit this mold pretty well.

Well we've all been Godfathered or lead to believe that a Family consists of The Hierarchy and in that lies it's true power. A civilian goes to Don Vito who gives an order to Clemenza who has two buttonmen handle an order. That's not not true but there's so much more to it. Outside of ranks, there's a mafia subculture that existed of a certain dress style, social clubs, cohesion among family and friends. The Mafia of yesterday was its own criminal cult rather than a gang. As the eras wore on it seemed to have taken many ganglike qualities but that was never it's intention. When people say things like a boss should only deal with his underboss and under only with the captains, you're stripping away the cohesion that allowed this group to flourish in America. In fact, one could say Massino tried exactly that and half of his lieutenants flipped on him.

[B.]

Part of the problem or misunderstanding is that people equate numbers to power.

i think some might also get a bit confused seeing how from my limited memory there seem to be a number of small groups/clans/families in italy that might only have a dozen or so made guys but are still considered a viable and ongoing criminal enterprise where as in america by the time a family gets to that point general attrition has assured that things are pretty much over aside from a few guys involved in a few things from time to time, what's left in kc seems to fit this mold pretty well.

Well we've all been Godfathered or lead to believe that a Family consists of The Hierarchy and in that lies it's true power. A civilian goes to Don Vito who gives an order to Clemenza who has two buttonmen handle an order. That's not not true but there's so much more to it. Outside of ranks, there's a mafia subculture that existed of a certain dress style, social clubs, cohesion among family and friends. The Mafia of yesterday was its own criminal cult rather than a gang. As the eras wore on it seemed to have taken many ganglike qualities but that was never it's intention. When people say things like a boss should only deal with his underboss and under only with the captains, you're stripping away the cohesion that allowed this group to flourish in America. In fact, one could say Massino tried exactly that and half of his lieutenants flipped on him.

Neighbors, relatives, and even made members who are only marginally involved in crime create that infrastructure you're talking about, and I wouldn't say all of them put crime on a pedestal or anything like that -- they simply have a value system that allows crime to exist alongside everything else they consider "normal". It's why a legitimate doctor could be a member of the Bonanno family and there are talks of priests having been members in old Sicily, not to mention all of the endless conservative businessmen who have filled out the ranks from top to bottom. It's a subculture that allows all of these things to coexist and to those people who are a part of it, there is nothing weird about it.

The most defining part of the subculture that surrounds it is the rejection of outside institutions and a willingness to do anything to benefit themselves, both as individuals and as a group. That last part seems to be a common topic of discussion over the years -- old timers and cooperators say that the organization is supposed to be about helping each other, while the "new school" are greedy and more focused on themselves. You also hear it a lot outside the mob in all walks of life. But it isn't new... people have been making these same complaints in every culture as far back as you can go, especially in the mob. Lately I've been hearing a lot about "Millennials", "etc.