Beliefs with no evidence

[Adam]

I've got a bunch of hunches for the Detroit family, but a quick Chicago one is I think Jackie Cerone was some kind of informant. And I base that almost entirely on how Roemer wrote about him. He did the same thing with guys we later on found out were informants. I'm thinking of Rosenthal specifically. But Roemer used to lavish Cerone with praise and I think that was his way of signaling he had been giving him information.

Detroit: I honestly think that for decades Detroit was coercing people in the mob and on the fringes to kill themselves when they were having issues. To avoid too much heat. It's just way too many suicides and accidents. Or they were really good at staging suicides. It's just way too many Detroit mobsters and associates killing themselves. Now, I'm not sure how you get someone to kill themselves, but it's just so incredibly common in my research. Or they die in really weird "accidents".

Detroit: It seems to me that there was almost an agreement to not go after the Detroit mob by local law enforcement too aggressively. Local, state and federal. And it's hard to figure out why. And then at a certain point the local press decided or were encouraged to not report on them too much. Just in terms of the kind of coverage and aggressive prosecutions that happened in other cities. The difference is definitely evident, but it's really hard to come up with a reason.

[PolackTony]

I also think that the Hoffa thing is a played out and overdone topic (not in terms of LCN control and influence in the IBT, as that's a major story, but the specific how/when etc. of Hoffa's murder), but that's just an opinion rather than a belief about events.

Yeah the way people come up with all sorts of convoluted speculative shit is pretty blah in my opinion, no argument here. Ockham's Razor works beautifully with the specifics of the Hoffa hit IMHO.

Detroit whacked him and got rid of the body, there's no need to go on about how perhaps the Andretta brothers were flown across the country to help dispose of it or whatever.

Exactly, same with the idea that guys were going to ship his body across multiple states to be disposed of, etc. I think part of these fanciful beliefs about the Hoffa thing is due to its major place in the American imaginary for a generation ("it had to be some complex conspiracy, or something"), while another part is just general ignorance of the Detroit outfit and how serious of an organization this was.

[Brovelli]

I believe Carlo Gambino was not nearly as feared or held up on a pedastal as people make him out to be. I also belief if things had gone a slightly different way, which I think they could have he wouldn’t have been boss.

In some contrast, I am convinced gambino had knowledge and “influence” in the murder of Anastasia with his subsequent rise to boss. Possible I am ignorant and I am definitely less educated than most on the forum but for him to rise as a Sicilian, not too long after mangano brother murders and then be a boss navigating those times untouched and highly respected by his family I think he’s a sneakier and even more savvy bastard than he is maybe given credit for on top of his respect etc as honorable guy blah blah blah.

[NickleCity]

I not only believe the Buffalo mob is active but it has kept an active presence in Las Vegas. That presence is primarily responsible for the mob connected drug trafficking into WNY. Names that arose during the 80's and were busted in the 90s Biscotto, graziadei and sardina drug mob connected drug rings continue to appear in the Masecchia/Serio and the Tripi DTO that have recently been alleged to be connected to Italian Organized Crime. These names include: Frank Tripi, Larry and Bobby Panaro, Johnny Amoia, Sam Amoia, Mark Amoia, Parisi,...etc. Masecchia was being investigated for a long time. I think as far back as 2004 and was thinking of moving out there. I know some of the Mazzara's (his wife side of the family) are out there and I believe the are involved. Johnny Cats was friends with a lot of these guys' fathers and signed condolences on some of their Dad's guestboooks. Cats comes up in recent court documents related to the Serio/Masecchia DTO. Bongiovanni had an Uncle Cheech who was out there in Vegas. I wander if it was Frank Mambrino whose dad Carmen (AKA Chisel) was always alleged to have been a member. The Mambrinos are related to the DEA Agent on his mom's side. Ralph Amoia was and probably still is close to Michael Masecchia and Ralph comes up as a drug dealer in Lou Selva's testimony at the Bongiovani trial. In thier late teens early 20's Ralph Amoia and Masecchia's very good friend Wayne Anderson (Masechhia and Anderson robbed bank drops together) were with Mario Zhangi who had moved to Buffalo from the Bronx when the got into an altercation at a bar. Paper original said it was a drug beef then retracted that. Zhangi get left out to dry for murder of a UB Student after the beef in bar, but Zhangi's attorney said Wayne Anderson was the shooter. I believe Wayne Anderson and Ralph Amoia (the driver) where protected by Michael Masecchia's uncle Reno Masecchia (BPD) and Mario Zhangi was the fall guy. Reno Masecchia was the one who charged Mario Zhangi with murder but not the other two. Michael Maseecchia sister Kristen married Reno Masecchia Jr, the BPD officer's son. Anderson was allegedly protected by Bongiovanni when he and Abbate's drug shipment was ceased. Abbate took the fall because Bongiovanni protected Anderson. Then their is Monty Masimmi... I am convinced that this was a mob connected drug ring hit. He was murdered by Sam Vacanti and SamVacanti's brother was part of the Serio/Masecchia drug ring according to court documents. The papers said it was a drug related murder. I could keep going but the tin foil hat on my head is getting very heavy now, so I should probably stop. LOL

[B.]

I believe Carlo Gambino was not nearly as feared or held up on a pedastal as people make him out to be. I also belief if things had gone a slightly different way, which I think they could have he wouldn’t have been boss.

In some contrast, I am convinced gambino had knowledge and “influence” in the murder of Anastasia with his subsequent rise to boss. Possible I am ignorant and I am definitely less educated than most on the forum but for him to rise as a Sicilian, not too long after mangano brother murders and then be a boss navigating those times untouched and highly respected by his family I think he’s a sneakier and even more savvy bastard than he is maybe given credit for on top of his respect etc as honorable guy blah blah blah.

I agree that Gambino was likely privy to the plot and supported it (along with Domenico Arcuri) even though the plot itself and the murder were the work of the Riccobono-Biondo-Dongarra group.

[CabriniGreen]

I believe that relationships/contact between LCN and U.S intelligence services between the end of WW2 and the 1970's or so were a lot tighter than many know. There is a shadowy network there that intersects crime, business, the military industrial complex, and foreign policy. They could all "scratch each other's backs" essentially.

It's called drugs.

[SonnyBlackstein]

The size of the outfit.
Chicago is fucking huge. In 1960 it was about 3.5m. 500k italian. 3rd largest after NYC and Philly. I just can't believe there would only have been ONLY 50 made guys. I know Roemer has been debunked blah blah but as Louie Ck said "of course there weren't 200 made guy! Of course! of course! But mayyybe....."

I grew up in chicago, and had several family and social acquaintances who had some type of dealing with the Outfit in one way or the other. I think the distinction here is "made" members. At it's peak, the Outfit was a very large network of criminals and hangers on. As you said, Chicago has a huge Italian American population. Between say the 1940's-1980's, if you grew up in the city you likely knew someone who was involved or at the very least had an Outfit story of some kind. That is all to say that it was certainly large, wide-reaching, and had a crucial impact on the social fabric of the city.

With that said, there are lots of primary sources to indicate that the actual made, inducted, membership was small and selective for a city of that size. The outfit network was massive, but the actual made member LCN core that ultimately made the final decisions and directed things was fairly small, and very hard to "break into" so to speak. Hence the literally ONE made member that has testified publicly in the history of the Outfit.

GREAT response...... but...
50 made guys for 500k Italians and EVERYONE knew an outfit story? Cmon.
Made guy = Capo in the Mike Coppola time.
You buy that?
200 buttons for sure. You have ONE family covering Nrth, Sth, East, Wst Side. Whats that, 10 made guys per side?
Coppola.

[Ivan]

Here's a fun one:

The Cleveland Mafia is not quite extinct, it simply evolved into a network of shady, semi-legit businessmen, who collectively are a considerable force in Cleveland society.

[ShotgunTheRifle]

Joey Merlino was cleaning up any one that disrespected his father and if he couldn't get them he went after their kids.

Marconi's had a beef with his father, Joey kills his son. Long John Martorano insulted them both, Joey kills him. Nicky Scarfo Sr insults them both, Joey goes after the son when Nick is in Jail.

[Coloboy]

The size of the outfit.
Chicago is fucking huge. In 1960 it was about 3.5m. 500k italian. 3rd largest after NYC and Philly. I just can't believe there would only have been ONLY 50 made guys. I know Roemer has been debunked blah blah but as Louie Ck said "of course there weren't 200 made guy! Of course! of course! But mayyybe....."

I grew up in chicago, and had several family and social acquaintances who had some type of dealing with the Outfit in one way or the other. I think the distinction here is "made" members. At it's peak, the Outfit was a very large network of criminals and hangers on. As you said, Chicago has a huge Italian American population. Between say the 1940's-1980's, if you grew up in the city you likely knew someone who was involved or at the very least had an Outfit story of some kind. That is all to say that it was certainly large, wide-reaching, and had a crucial impact on the social fabric of the city.

With that said, there are lots of primary sources to indicate that the actual made, inducted, membership was small and selective for a city of that size. The outfit network was massive, but the actual made member LCN core that ultimately made the final decisions and directed things was fairly small, and very hard to "break into" so to speak. Hence the literally ONE made member that has testified publicly in the history of the Outfit.

GREAT response...... but...
50 made guys for 500k Italians and EVERYONE knew an outfit story? Cmon.
Made guy = Capo in the Mike Coppola time.
You buy that?
200 buttons for sure. You have ONE family covering Nrth, Sth, East, Wst Side. Whats that, 10 made guys per side?
Coppola.

For what it’s worth, some contemporary estimates put the number of made guys as high as 150 at its peak, so there’s that.

We also know from non-member informants that getting made gave a person the right to both extort street tax as well as run what essentially amounted to as a crew. In other words, a made guy basically had a mini crew around him. So if you had 10-15 guys running a portion of the city, that was essentially like 10-15 small crews operating in that area.

[Don_Peppino]

I often believed Joe Bonanno was deposed for more "operational" reasons as opposed to the "organizational" reasons we know of.
I think it was about dominance in the heroin trade.
1957- Bonanno, Luciano, Frank Coppola etc. brokered the deal with the Sicilians
1959- Vito Genovese is jailed, making way for Bonnano's rise in influence in the heroin trade
1960- Galante is Jailed, destabilizing Bonanno's power with his family
Mid 60s- Bonanno tries to place Bill Bonanno in the Galante position. Bill makes trips to west coast, Canada and the Carribean islands.
1968- Bonanno is deposed and exiled
1970s- who comes into prominence in the drug trade? The Luccheses and Gambinos. (I am aware that both groups were involved since the late 40s, with the Lukes being the more influential)
1976-Galante gets whacked after a few years of trying to regain power and who was behind the hit? The Gambinos.
I'll leave it there. Any thoughts????

[Oc1878+]

Great idea for a thread B.

My hunch is there will be an indictment pretty soon which proves American LCN, be it at least 2 of the 5 families, my guess would be Gambino & Lucchese have been trafficking narcotics in hundreds of kilos if not tons, colluding with the Sicilians and the N’Drangheta.

[SonnyBlackstein]

The size of the outfit.
Chicago is fucking huge. In 1960 it was about 3.5m. 500k italian. 3rd largest after NYC and Philly. I just can't believe there would only have been ONLY 50 made guys. I know Roemer has been debunked blah blah but as Louie Ck said "of course there weren't 200 made guy! Of course! of course! But mayyybe....."

I grew up in chicago, and had several family and social acquaintances who had some type of dealing with the Outfit in one way or the other. I think the distinction here is "made" members. At it's peak, the Outfit was a very large network of criminals and hangers on. As you said, Chicago has a huge Italian American population. Between say the 1940's-1980's, if you grew up in the city you likely knew someone who was involved or at the very least had an Outfit story of some kind. That is all to say that it was certainly large, wide-reaching, and had a crucial impact on the social fabric of the city.

With that said, there are lots of primary sources to indicate that the actual made, inducted, membership was small and selective for a city of that size. The outfit network was massive, but the actual made member LCN core that ultimately made the final decisions and directed things was fairly small, and very hard to "break into" so to speak. Hence the literally ONE made member that has testified publicly in the history of the Outfit.

GREAT response...... but...
50 made guys for 500k Italians and EVERYONE knew an outfit story? Cmon.
Made guy = Capo in the Mike Coppola time.
You buy that?
200 buttons for sure. You have ONE family covering Nrth, Sth, East, Wst Side. Whats that, 10 made guys per side?
Coppola.

For what it’s worth, some contemporary estimates put the number of made guys as high as 150 at its peak, so there’s that.

We also know from non-member informants that getting made gave a person the right to both extort street tax as well as run what essentially amounted to as a crew. In other words, a made guy basically had a mini crew around him. So if you had 10-15 guys running a portion of the city, that was essentially like 10-15 small crews operating in that area.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XLGzFQg_1 ... liZQ%3D%3D

[sdeitche]

The mob is currently more active in South Florida than people think.

[SonnyBlackstein]

The mob is currently more active in South Florida than people think.

Follow that up?