General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[Coloboy]

Yeah, ceremonies and promotions/demotions are standard when a new leadership regime takes over. While he may have known he was in some degree of trouble, he must not have known the full degree if he believed that a promotion for himself and the induction of his brother were in the realm of possibility.

Is there any available info that suggests the Family had addressed any of the issues with him directly?

Really interesting reading and commentary, everyone. Nicks testimony is crazy to revisit.

B.- I don’t have any knowledge of the family expressing frustrations directly to the spilotros, but there is this interesting tidbit in this tribune article from the era, which suggests Tony S. may have gone to Palm Springs to meet with Accardo a few weeks before the murders. I’ve never seen it referenced anywhere else and it does not site an official source.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/1986/07/ ... ros-slain/

[Richards_bar]

When I said I didn't get the impression Calabrese embellished, I meant Nick. If he said on the stand that Spilotro requested to say a prayer, it's as close to a fact as we're ever going to have.

Two things the Spilotro ruse tell us about Chicago organizationally:

- Ceremonies were not extraordinary. Yes, the Calabrese induction had already taken place which we know was "traditional" but Tony Spilotro was not present for that. The idea of going to a house where a group of leaders and members would be present for what appears to be a standard mafia induction was not something that Tony Spilotro would find strange or questionable, indicating he was familiar with this process.

- If it's true part of the ruse was that Tony Spilotro would be promoted to capodecina, the timing doesn't seem to have coincided with an existing capodecina needing replacement (that I'm aware of). There is a tendency to assume Chicago captain promotions were always in direct succession within static crews but along with other evidence we have that challenges this, the "promotion" ruse could suggest it was not abnormal for a member to be promoted to captain over a new crew and/or when there wasn't an obvious need to promote someone. Maybe someone more knowledgeable has a better read on that period but it's an interesting detail.

I believe tony was supposed to take Lombardos spot.

[funkster]

I don’t see how as that would have assumed that Eboli was just a placeholder.

[Richards_bar]

I don’t see how as that would have assumed that Eboli was just a placeholder.

Yes. I’m saying that’s what the ruse was. He was coming back to Chicago cause Vegas was too hot.

[NorthBuffalo]

Why beat these guys to death though and have so many crew bosses there? Why not use a gun or make it quick and cleaner?

There were more bosses there than Nick C's own making ceremony. Unless Spilotro was that suspicious and paranoid at the time that this was the only ruse that would work - I just think there was something more to it.

Gun really isn't all that cleaner, though. Blood, shell casings, etc. I don't think they were worried about law enforcement stumbling onto the scene of the crime but you don't want a lot of evidence that a murder happened. Beating and strangling seemed "safer", I suppose.

Quieter than a gunshot in a respectable neighborhood.

Wasn't the mob using silencers well before 1986? I mean the gun that hit Giancana had one. In terms of physical evidence, sorry but a beating between six to eight guys and perhaps 1-2 with a gun is incomparable. Even back in the 1980s they were running prints and doing blood tests. You know those guys fought back - imagine all of the fingerprints from that many guys at one crime scene alone or all the various defensive wounds those guys had. All of the hair/fingernails/teeth, etc. that went everywhere as they fought for their lives. That was not a clean crime scene...also consider that it allegedly took place in Magnafichi's relative's house in Bensenville.

These guys were smart and hit higher profile people than the Spilotros - I think it was either the only way to get a paranoid Spilotro there or a literal message to involve every crew boss to get the Outfit back in line.

[Snakes]

The cause of death was asphyxiation so I think the beating was largely supplemental. The reason they looked so fucked up in the autopsy pics was because they were in the elements for several days in June.

[PolackTony]

The cause of death was asphyxiation so I think the beating was largely supplemental. The reason they looked so fucked up in the autopsy pics was because they were in the elements for several days in June.

This is true. I've looked at the reporting in June 1986 when the bodies were discovered and while they were noted to have had some bruising, these were also reported as having been superficial and not deep or penetrating. It is pretty clear that they were garotted, and it seems likely to me that any other physical force used against them was largely conducted in the course of subduing them for this purpose.

We can go back to Nick C's testimony here (and for anyone reading, I'd like to reiterate and emphasize that we had an actual LCN member who participated in the planning and execution of these murders testify on the stand about them, so we actually know a lot more here than we do for the vast majority of mob-related murders).

After Michael S entered the Bensenville residence, he greeted Nick, whom he knew. Nick then abruptly tackled him at the legs, while Eboli strangled Michael to death with a rope. I'm sure that during the course of the struggle, Michael incurred some contusions. Nick -- who doesn't exactly shy away from the gruesome details of his various crimes on the stand -- never said anything about guys beating or stomping Michael or anything of that nature. While he didn't see Tony get taken down, he also doesn't report any beating (let alone a group of guys beating him to death or whatever). He just says that all he heard was Tony ask for a prayer and then nothing else, which sounds consistent with Tony having been garotted as well.

It also bears emphasizing that from what we know of the murders, the actual method of dispatch was not out of line with many other Chicago murders, including a number that Nick hard participated in, where victims were forcibly tackled/restrained and garotted. Some of those were in fact bloodier, as the target had their throat slit after strangulation (the "Calabrese necktie").

The gathering of members was fully consistent with a mock induction ceremony and as I've already gone over, totally in line with the ceremony that Nick himself underwent. Further, the method of dispatch was not at all out of the ordinary for Chicago. If anyone thinks that all Chicago hits were a clean, silenced .22 to the back of the head "gangland style", well, c'mon lol. You had guys getting blown to pieces in the middle of a busy suburban expressway on-ramp, guys who were garotted, guys who had their throats slit, Aleman et al. blowing guys away in crowded restaurants with shotguns like they were in the OK Corral (they didn't get monikered "The Wild Bunch" for being precision surgical assassins). Nick C testified that every guy present at the mock ceremony wore gloves, while blood evidence (and I doubt any significant blood was let at the Bensenville residence anyway) was much less of an issue in the days before DNA forensics. And, again, the original hit team dispatched had initially planned to Schwarzenegger these two with an Uzi, but were unable to do this in Vegas so Plan B was floated to lure them into a trap back home (I would also stress that while flamboyant public hits happened back in the day in Chicagoland itself, it would have been much more difficult for Schweihs et al to have pulled off a brash public hit in Vegas, as they simply did not have the kind of pull with local LE and the court system in the same way. They tried for weeks to make it happen and it was too risky there).

I think that some of the coverage of these murders was sensationalized a bit by the media, while the fictionalized portrayal of the murders in the film "Casino" has probably further exaggerated the gruesome or exceptional nature of it. While LE was saying that the cause of death was asphyxiation and other wounds were minor, you had our old pal Bill Roemer (then retired from the FBI and heading the CCC) bellowing to reporters that the Spilotro brothers had been "tortured to death", which probably helped set the stage for this event being narrativized in the way that it came to be.

[funkster]

I don’t see how as that would have assumed that Eboli was just a placeholder.

Yes. I’m saying that’s what the ruse was. He was coming back to Chicago cause Vegas was too hot.

Yeah i understand and it's possible. I'm saying my guess is Eboli was firmly in place by that point so it would be difficult for them to make Tony think he was taking over for Lombardo. Again, i would imagine he was under the impression he was being given his own crew that wasn't necessarily Grand Ave. But you never know, he of course under lombardo for years.

[Ivan]

I think that some of the coverage of these murders was sensationalized a bit by the media, while the fictionalized portrayal of the murders in the film "Casino" has probably further exaggerated the gruesome or exceptional nature of it. While LE was saying that the cause of death was asphyxiation and other wounds were minor, you had our old pal Bill Roemer (then retired from the FBI and heading the CCC) bellowing to reporters that the Spilotro brothers had been "tortured to death", which probably helped set the stage for this event being narrativized in the way that it came to be.

Roemer is also a (the?) source for that thing about Vandermark being hunted down and killed in Latin America, which too ended up in the movie but got combined with the Jerry Lisner hit, with consultant-actor Frank Culotta amusingly being paid to reenact a real-life murder he committed (nice work if you can get it). The Vandermark thing is in his Spilotro book but I haven't seen it anywhere else, so it's unclear if that was the FBI's theory or just Roemer's or what.

(I honestly didn't know that the "vicious beating" thing was so exaggerated until I just now read it here, great stuff guys.)

[PolackTony]

I think that some of the coverage of these murders was sensationalized a bit by the media, while the fictionalized portrayal of the murders in the film "Casino" has probably further exaggerated the gruesome or exceptional nature of it. While LE was saying that the cause of death was asphyxiation and other wounds were minor, you had our old pal Bill Roemer (then retired from the FBI and heading the CCC) bellowing to reporters that the Spilotro brothers had been "tortured to death", which probably helped set the stage for this event being narrativized in the way that it came to be.

Roemer is also a (the?) source for that thing about Vandermark being hunted down and killed in Latin America, which too ended up in the movie but got combined with the Jerry Lisner hit, with consultant-actor Frank Culotta amusingly being paid to reenact a real-life murder he committed (nice work if you can get it). The Vandermark thing is in his Spilotro book but I haven't seen it anywhere else, so it's unclear if that was the FBI's theory or just Roemer's or what.

(I honestly didn't know that the "vicious beating" thing was so exaggerated until I just now read it here, great stuff guys.)

To be clear, garroting a guy is by nature a brutal and extremely personal method of murder. And we can imagine that men like the Spilotros would have fought like cornered animals, guaranteeing some other wounds to have been incurred in the struggle and attempt to restrain them. But my point is that this method of dispatch was not at all exceptional and it’s pretty clear that they weren’t *beaten* to death (let alone “tortured”). The level of brutality used doesn’t seem in of itself unusual at all to me (keeping in mind that they basically walked into a house full of serial killers who really wanted them dead).

Replying to your earlier comment about the Rosenthal bombing. I actually went back to Pileggi’s book and some other sources here. Pileggi noted that the FBI believed that Balistrieri had ordered the bombing while the Vegas Metro PD firmly believed that it was Spilotro who was behind it (another theory I’ve seen floated was that it was a biker gang hired by Geri, though I’m not aware that any level of LE took that one seriousl). So far as I can tell, the sole evidence for the FBI’s belief were the bugs made of Balistrieri taking with his sons, in the weeks prior to the bombing, where he derided Rosenthal as having messed the casinos up for them and in another conversation stated that they were going to get “full satisfaction” from him. Which, if that was really all the Feds were going on (and they may well have had other intel that I’m not aware of) — yeah, he may have had a motive but it’s far from a proven fact that Balistrieri was actually responsible (or even an argument that I find particularly compelling). He could have meant many things by “satisfaction”. I also have a hard time imagining Balistrieri *ordering* a hit like this on a Chicago associate himself (maybe his standing had deteriorated enough by this point that he was non grata, but it’s important to note that Rosenthal was personally close to Cerone going back to the 50s/60s). Balistrieri would at the least had to have had approval from Chicago for it and I really have a hard time seeing them giving him permission for any such thing even if he had good cause to want Rosenthal dead (hard to imagine that Chicago would approve a bombing like this in Vegas of all places, considering how much heat was already on them there in ‘82).

For Spilotro being behind it (and presumably as an unsanctioned action), we have the Metro PD considering him the prime suspect and Nick C reporting that Fecarotta told him that this was one of the marks against Spilotro that led to his contract (and while the latter is not definitive proof, it is at least indicative that some Chicago guys apparently believed this to have been the case).

[Richards_bar]

Just for the record. I think it’s funny that burnstain has missed out on the latest Dominic news. I mean with all his “sources”. Keep that in mind next time he mentions his sources.

[Ivan]

Replying to your earlier comment about the Rosenthal bombing. I actually went back to Pileggi’s book and some other sources here. Pileggi noted that the FBI believed that Balistrieri had ordered the bombing while the Vegas Metro PD firmly believed that it was Spilotro who was behind it (another theory I’ve seen floated was that it was a biker gang hired by Geri, though I’m not aware that any level of LE took that one seriousl). So far as I can tell, the sole evidence for the FBI’s belief were the bugs made of Balistrieri taking with his sons, in the weeks prior to the bombing, where he derided Rosenthal as having messed the casinos up for them and in another conversation stated that they were going to get “full satisfaction” from him. Which, if that was really all the Feds were going on (and they may well have had other intel that I’m not aware of) — yeah, he may have had a motive but it’s far from a proven fact that Balistrieri was actually responsible (or even an argument that I find particularly compelling). He could have meant many things by “satisfaction”. I also have a hard time imagining Balistrieri *ordering* a hit like this on a Chicago associate himself (maybe his standing had deteriorated enough by this point that he was non grata, but it’s important to note that Rosenthal was personally close to Cerone going back to the 50s/60s). Balistrieri would at the least had to have had approval from Chicago for it and I really have a hard time seeing them giving him permission for any such thing even if he had good cause to want Rosenthal dead (hard to imagine that Chicago would approve a bombing like this in Vegas of all places, considering how much heat was already on them there in ‘82).

For Spilotro being behind it (and presumably as an unsanctioned action), we have the Metro PD considering him the prime suspect and Nick C reporting that Fecarotta told him that this was one of the marks against Spilotro that led to his contract (and while the latter is not definitive proof, it is at least indicative that some Chicago guys apparently believed this to have been the case).

There's also something in the book to the effect that the feds thought it fit his Balistrieri's MO because he was fond of using bombs to kill people or something, but I'm not sure if that characterization is accurate (I can only think of one actual case off the top of my head, the "now they can't find his skin" one -- perhaps the FBI overextrapolated from his enthusiasm there, if that's even a genuine quote). "Mad Bomber" as used below sounds like one of those dumb media nicknames like "the Lackey" I find so irritating. I found the relevant Casino book passage online:

There are two serious theories about who tried to bomb Frank Rosenthal. The first—which the FBI believes—is that it was Frank Balistrieri. Balistrieri was actually known as the Mad Bomber owing to his habit of blowing up his adversaries. And an FBI wiretap in Balistrieri’s office a few weeks before the bombing had recorded Balistrieri telling his sons that he believed that Frank Rosenthal caused their problems. He promised his sons that he would “get full satisfaction.” The second theory, popular with the Metro cops, is that Spilotro did it.

So yeah, as you said not exactly conclusive. Also, though I haven't read it in years, I got the impression that Balistrieri was given undue prominence in the book among the figures involved, as if Pileggi was personally fascinated by him or something. The book also claims he ordered the Tamara Rand hit.

Here's a link from the Mob Museum that talks about the bikers theory. Also makes reference to some History Channel publication that apparently goes into more depth about the Balistrieri theory for whatever that's worth: https://themobmuseum.org/blog/who-bombe ... thals-car/

[funkster]

I highly doubt Balistrieri had the juice to order that. My guess is as others have said that it was an unsanctioned move by Spilotro.

[Patrickgold]

Just for the record. I think it’s funny that burnstain has missed out on the latest Dominic news. I mean with all his “sources”. Keep that in mind next time he mentions his sources.

He saw your post and just poster an article about it lol

[NorthBuffalo]

Good points on the garrote - I was not aware of the exact cause of death and had thought blunt force trauma for at least one of them. It's still odd to involve so many people in a murder - its just not typical for the Outfit as you saw in Nick C's testimony that he often had no idea who was being hit and when and that often included hits he wasn't part of (like the Daubers). For a family who worked overtime to keep everyone in the dark and as secretive as possible, its just wild that they would take such a risk involving so many people just to hit two guys.