General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[Coloboy]

Thanks, Tony. Will definitely be buying it

[Ivan]

https://chicago.suntimes.com/fbi-files/ ... -fbi-files

Joey 'The Clown' Lombardo's FBI files show Chicago Outfit boss complaining about government inspectors

Despite his penchant for humor, the late hoodlum comes across as rather grumpy as authorities kept showing up at his workplace, the newly released records show.

By Robert Herguth Nov 15, 2024, 5:00pm UTC

Known for a wicked sense of humor as well as a penchant for violence, the late Chicago Outfit boss Joseph Lombardo was known as “Joey the Clown.”

But newly released FBI files on the hoodlum, who died in 2019, showed he also could be, well, kind of prickly.
The once-secret paperwork — FBI files generally can be released, on demand, only after a person’s death and, even then, often only with large swaths blacked out — shows Lombardo complaining about government inspectors descending on a suburban company he was employed by in 1971.

“He noted that he was in dirty work clothes and industrially employed in the production of fiberglass sinks at the time he was contacted,” according to one document. “Lombardo stated that the fiberglass business is good and that they were working very hard to meet their production schedules.

“Lombardo stated that the Village of Elk Grove is harassing him by having frequent inspections conducted by the Fire Department and very closely watching this fiberglass operation for fire violations.

“He stated he does not really mind this as he expects to abide by the law and if on any occasion he feels that he is being discriminated against, he will make an issue of it in the courts.

“Joseph Lombardo stated that people like himself have more problems with the law enforcement authorities than the general public and as a case in point he explained the circumstances of his arrest when he was mistaken for Joe Lombardi and actually taken to court by the Chicago Police Department, where he was not identified by the victim.

“He stated that at the time of this arrest he was pushed around by the Chicago police, who would not listen to him when he stated that he was the wrong man.

“Lombardo advised that he as a matter of practice is polite to policemen until he is placed under arrest, at which time he refuses to discuss anything with them and generally replies to their queries with obscenities.”

Months later, investigators visited Lombardo again at his work place, and he “noted that they had recently cleared up the premises due to a complaint of the Elk Grove Fire Department.

“Lombardo would disclose only general subjects, however was very emphatic in his opinion that the Italian American people are discriminated against in that they are classified as hoodlums.”

He pointed to being a member of the YMCA but being “dropped” from its “Executive Club,” his dues returned without explanation, except that “his membership was not desirable.”

Upset, Lombardo said that “he talked to an attorney concerning this and was advised that inasmuch as it was a private club in the YMCA, he had no recourse.

“Lombardo stated he was bitter.”

The records also briefly mention one of Lombardo’s former business associates — Daniel Seifert, who was gunned down in 1974 outside his Bensenville factory to stop him from testifying against Lombardo in a pension fraud case.

The Seifert killing was one of 10 killings that Lombardo and other mob bosses were found liable for when they were convicted in 2007 in the landmark Operation Family Secrets mob trial.

Just before charges were announced in 2005, Lombardo fled. He was tracked down in early 2006 in Elmwood Park and put on trial.

The 124 pages that were released by the FBI all appear to be regarding Lombardo’s earlier years, when he was rising in the Outfit and not yet one of the top bosses.

One document in Lombardo’s FBI file shows that, when a car he was traveling in was pulled over in the early 1970s, one of his associates tried to bribe a Niles cop and an “altercation” ensued.

“Information was later received . . . that as a result of an alleged $1,000 payoff to the Niles Police, all charges against [REDACTED] were dismissed and all reports relative to the arrest and assault were destroyed,” FBI records say.

According to another document, an informant told authorities Lombardo and fellow mobster Anthony Spilotro “pulled” a 1966 Tiffany robbery that saw hundreds of thousands of dollars in jewelry taken from a Michigan Avenue store.

The records also show Lombardo had a host of other nicknames and aliases besides “The Clown,” including Joe Padula, Little Joey, William Baker, Milton Snyder, Harold McBride, Frederick Bomberd, George S. Carroll and Henry Jones.

The files show the lengths to which investigators went to track down Lombardo decades ago, even contacting his mother, then living in Park Ridge. She “refused to disclose his residence, activities or associates.”

[Patrickgold]

I was told that this shooting and murder is possibly linked to organized crime, either Outfit or Chinese. Two Chinese men murdered in Chinatown. Targeted. I’m guessing someone was ripping off a gambling house or these guys weren’t paying their taxes. I’m sure we will hear more in the future.

https://abc7chicago.com/amp/post/chicag ... /15542341/


CHINATOWN SHOOTING: 2 KILLED IN TARGETED ARMED ROBBERY, CHICAGO POLICE, ALDERMAN SAY
'Chinatown remains a safe place,' Chamber of Commerce director said
By Christian Piekos and Leah Hope
Thursday, November 14, 2024 1:00PM CT

Two men shot and killed in a targeted armed robbery in Chinatown have been identified.
CHICAGO (WLS) -- Two people were killed in a targeted robbery and shooting in Chinatown Tuesday night, Chicago police and the local alderman said.

The shooting took place at about 9:56 p.m. in the 2400-block of South Normal Avenue.

ABC7 Chicago is now streaming 24/7. Click here to watch


Officers were responding to shots fired when they found the first victim outside a home with multiple gunshot wounds, police said. The victim was pronounced dead on the scene.


Chinatown residents react to double fatal shooting


A second victim was found with a gunshot wound to the shoulder, and taken to a hospital, where he later died, police said.




The Cook County Medical Examiner's Office identified the victims as 32-year-old Faliang Gao and 33-year-old Jianru Zheng. Gao was shot multiple times, and Zheng was shot in the back.

They both lived in the block where the shooting took place.

Police believe the shooting may have happened inside a home.

"I heard the shooting sound, and then I heard the ambulance, and the police car come here," nearby resident Betty said. "Very terrible."




Some residents did not want to be identified.

One said she heard a woman calling for help, and what was apparently gunfire.

"I'm cooking at home, at that time I hear one shooting. I only hear one shooting, I'm not sure it's a shooting. I thought it was fireworks," she said.

Wade Chan was born and raised in Chinatown, and is calling for an increased law enforcement presence in this neighborhood.

"We are processing. We are telling our friends, our family to be careful," Chan said. "I think it's more frustration we can't do anything. The only thing we can do is turn around and watch our back, literally."

RELATED: Armed suspect shot after security guard pistol-whipped at South Shore Family Dollar store: CPD

Alderwoman Nicole Lee said she's spoken with police, and the incident appeared to be a targeted armed robbery.




"It's very jarring; this is becoming way too normal in this city. And while the stats are down, it doesn't feel good to know two people were shot and killed next-door to you, blocks away from you," Lee said. "I don't live far from here. I can walk here."

She's cautioning Chinatown neighbors to be aware of their surroundings.

"What we need to do is continue to work with police," Lee said." We need to be vigilant as community members; we need to, if we see something, say something. We don't have ShotSpotter anymore at this point. Now we rely more on the public to report these crimes."




Alderwoman Lee said some surveillance video was shared with police to help with the investigation.

"We feel a deep sense of sorry and sympathy for the family. I think that's the most important thing," Chinatown Chamber of Commerce Director Homan Wong said. "I think it's an isolated incident; the police are looking Into it. I think that everybody should know Chinatown remains a safe place."

No one is in custody, and Area One detectives are investigating.

"They believe it's targeted, but not necessarily something to fear in the neighborhood. But, of course, the ninth district is going to be paying special attention to this area for the foreseeable future," Lee said.

Chicago police left door hangers in the area asking for information, using characters in Mandarin and Cantonese.

They emphasized information can be shared anonymously.

[Ivan]

Interesting that the one guy died from a shoulder wound. Might have gotten it in the subclavian or axillary artery and bled out, or the bullet might have traveled at a downward angle and hit something else important. Thanks for posting.

[Patrickgold]

Interesting that the one guy died from a shoulder wound. Might have gotten it in the subclavian or axillary artery and bled out, or the bullet might have traveled at a downward angle and hit something else important. Thanks for posting.

Who knows could just be a drug ripoff but some guys from Bridgeport were saying it is a good possibility to be connected to organized crime in the area

[NorthBuffalo]

I've mentioned this to a few of you previously, but there is an 'Anthony Labalestra' who has a looming indictment in Northern District Illinois - I'm told that is the son of Pete Labalestra. Lots of speculation as to what it involves. Anthony has also been arrested several times for burglaries that seem more sophisticated than teenage/hooligan stuff. I'm not sure if anyone can access the actual indictment, but it would be interesting to see what's in there.

https://casetext.com/case/united-states-v-labalestra

He has already pled guilty to it. Possession of a firearm by a convicted felon and the sale or manufacture of firearms in exchange for money or narcotics. He sold 5 pistols and 1 "AR-Style rifle" to a couple of Colombians. He had previously been convicted of burglary and manufacture of ecstasy (two separate convictions). There was no indictment as he pled guilty and agreed to be prosecuted by "way of information." The most interesting part of the plea agreement is Labalestra's agreement to "fully and truthfully" cooperate when called upon by the Northern District of Illinois to provide testimony in any court proceeding. His sentencing (facing a maximum of 15 years) has been delayed until the completion of this cooperation. I had first thought he was going to cooperate against the Colombians he dealt with, but they have also pled guilty, so it must be concerning some other matter.

Wow thanks Snakes for finding this .Do you have any of the links handy where you got this? We've been looking into this for some time- you are gonna make me a hero to this goofball who sends me all these things. Can you also confirm this is indeed the son of Pietro Labalestra? I think Scott B's got his next Outfit article

It's rare when you link someone affiliated to the Outfit to something that violent and street level these days - reminds of the PK Crew with all the work they were doing with hispanic drug gangs. Then again, maybe this has no ties to the Outfit.

From whatever Intel is out there, it actually seems like there are sort of two levels of the outfit remaining today. The older, legacy guys, who have a lot of legitimate businesses and probably participate in some of the traditional rackets. Thinking of people like Solly D, Gary Gags, Spina, Bobby D, etc. Then there appears to be a gangbanger type element, similar to the PK crew, which you mentioned. Seems like some elements of the Cicero crew are that style. Real street dudes involved in drugs, armed robberies, and violence.

I agree - however, I think most of the legacy guys you named have been out of 'the rackets' for some time or are these starbucks gangsters that Michael Mandell was talking about on wiretaps - wealthy and just doing bidrigging, real estate deals, white collar crimes, etc. I think some like Gags are active, I think Solly D has been done for some time. I was told that Bobby D is quite wealthy and hasn't been around vice for decades.

I think there is a lot of more violent stuff happening in Chicago that simply goes under the radar and is just not linked to organized crime when it probably is - especially with drugs. We tend to read about things like a tattooist having his hand broken for tattooing the daughter of an Outfit boss (Anthony Calabrese indictment) years after it happens - there is no Jerry Capeci in NYC and none of the local outlets seem to pick up on the everyday stuff. They do pick up on the legacy guys whose names are known - but a LaBalestra selling guns to Colombians somehow doesn't get attention I guess. I posted a photo of one of the PK Crew members a while back and he was in prison for murder - apparently he broke into a house with another guy to collect a debt and the home owner shot and killed his accomplice (Franco Martinelli) - that's clearly linked to Panozzo's juice business but just flies under the radar in the media.

[Coloboy]

Interesting. I have never heard of the Franco martinelli thing. I agree that there’s probably a lot of small day to day stuff that doesn’t make the news or get linked to the outfit.

And hell, if I was one of those older guys we talked about and had millions in real estate, businesses, and all that, I would keep my self distanced from the street shit too.

Not so sure about Solly D though. Remember Caparelli was recorded talking about Mickey Davis being “Solly D’s partner”, whatever that means. That was around 2015, but still pretty recent.

[PolackTony]

I've mentioned this to a few of you previously, but there is an 'Anthony Labalestra' who has a looming indictment in Northern District Illinois - I'm told that is the son of Pete Labalestra. Lots of speculation as to what it involves. Anthony has also been arrested several times for burglaries that seem more sophisticated than teenage/hooligan stuff. I'm not sure if anyone can access the actual indictment, but it would be interesting to see what's in there.

https://casetext.com/case/united-states-v-labalestra

He has already pled guilty to it. Possession of a firearm by a convicted felon and the sale or manufacture of firearms in exchange for money or narcotics. He sold 5 pistols and 1 "AR-Style rifle" to a couple of Colombians. He had previously been convicted of burglary and manufacture of ecstasy (two separate convictions). There was no indictment as he pled guilty and agreed to be prosecuted by "way of information." The most interesting part of the plea agreement is Labalestra's agreement to "fully and truthfully" cooperate when called upon by the Northern District of Illinois to provide testimony in any court proceeding. His sentencing (facing a maximum of 15 years) has been delayed until the completion of this cooperation. I had first thought he was going to cooperate against the Colombians he dealt with, but they have also pled guilty, so it must be concerning some other matter.

Wow thanks Snakes for finding this .Do you have any of the links handy where you got this? We've been looking into this for some time- you are gonna make me a hero to this goofball who sends me all these things. Can you also confirm this is indeed the son of Pietro Labalestra? I think Scott B's got his next Outfit article

Pietro LaBalestra does have a son, his only one so far as I know, named Anthony. In his early 40s. I’m pretty certain this is the same guy. He also had a burglary case back in 2007 when he was 17 for ripping off $20k in items from an electronics supply store with one of his buddies, which matches him having a prior burglary conviction. Clearly, the apple don’t fall far from the tree.

[NorthBuffalo]

Interesting. I have never heard of the Franco martinelli thing. I agree that there’s probably a lot of small day to day stuff that doesn’t make the news or get linked to the outfit.

And hell, if I was one of those older guys we talked about and had millions in real estate, businesses, and all that, I would keep my self distanced from the street shit too.

Not so sure about Solly D though. Remember Caparelli was recorded talking about Mickey Davis being “Solly D’s partner”, whatever that means. That was around 2015, but still pretty recent.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2010/09/ ... -invasion/

Article on Martinelli - that was clearly not a burglary and more of a debt scenario.

And I do think Solly probably has a few hundred thousand (potentially million) on the street that guys like Mickey Davis are using for juice - I think that is likely where it ends however. I also wonder how much of a return partnering in a juice operation in Chicago these days would net lol Davis was loaning out $200K at a time - this is big money still.

[InCamelot]

Curious if any of you have read “The Insane Chicago Way” by John Haggedorn of University of Chicago?

Seems to be about Latin gangs in Chicago, working in concert with the outfit, attempting to model themselves after the mob. Lots of references to the C notes.

thinking of ordering it.

It’s an excellent book and I’ve been trying to get people here to read it for years lol.

To summarize. John Hagedorn is a veteran criminologist who has spent decades researching street gangs in Chicago and Milwaukee. Some time like around 2010, IIRC, an Italian kid took one of his courses at UIC on gangs and told Hagedorn that he knew some people who could tell him things. He wound up being put into contact with a guy who Hagedorn refers to by the pseudonym “Sal”. He describes Sal as a made guy with the Grand Ave crew, and Hagedorn conducts a series of in depth interviews with Sal over an extended period.

Sal tells Hagedorn that after Joey Lombardo, who he calls “the old man”, was released from prison in the early 90s, the Grand Ave crew under Lombardo’s direction spearheaded what was basically an outreach program to steer the organizational structure of the Latin Folks (the non-black organizations in the Folks alliance) via liaisons with the C-Notes. The Notes by this time had joined the Folks alliance under the banner of the “Insane” faction headed by the Spanish Cobras (a major PR gang). The motivations seems to have been the realization that “our people” (the Italians) were becoming a declining demographic and criminal force in Chicago and thus elements of the mafia sought to control the Hispanic organizations and push them into a more sophisticated, OC-oriented mode. With the C-Notes, the Grand Ave crew had access to the leadership of the “Tabla”’(the “Board”) of the Spanish Gangster Disciples Nation (aka “Spanish Growth and Development”), the deliberative and command echelon in the IL prison system for the Latin Folks (modeled on, but semi-autonomous from, the Black Gangster Disciples “Board” set up under “Chairman” Larry Hoover; Hoover, in turn, is apocryphally said to have modeled this structure on LCN). [should note here there is also an active street gang organization on the Northside of Chicago called SGDN; this was directly sponsored by the formation of the prison organization].

Long story short, this attempt to more fully organize the Latin Folks blew up pretty quickly in the 90s, in spectacular fashion, as bloody waves of gang warfare erupted on the streets of Humboldt Park, Logan Square, Hermosa etc., between the “Insane” and “Maniac” (the latter controlled by the Maniac Latin Disciples) factions (leading to a situation that while their leaders in prison all sat on the “Tabla” together, these organizations became implacable foes on the streets, a situations that pertains to this day).

Hagedorn has longstanding informant connections in the gang world and was able to corroborate and more fully flesh out the events of this period following his interviews with Sal. I can at least say that his account of the Insane/Maniac wars in the 90s is extremely accurate, as I lived through it and was a participant (to say that I am a “survivor” of these events isn’t hyperbole). I knew a number of the shooting victims and other actors that Hagedorm discusses. It also jibes with the general picture I had as a youth on the street: that not only the C-Notes (because duh, everyone know they were mobbed up) but also the Spanish Cobras had close ties to the mafia.

An interesting tangent in the book also comes from a separate interview that Hagedorn conducted with an informant that he calls “The Don”. This was not our good friend John Lennon, but rather the pseudonym that Hagedorn gave to an elderly Sicilian outfit member that Hagedorn was introduced to by a contact in the gang world. As part of the longer context of mafia-street gang contact, “The Don” told Hagedorn about longstanding ties between the outfit and black organizations on the Southside such as the Vice Lords and the Black P Stones, who “The Don” claimed outfit affiliates supplied with narcotics for street level distribution operations in the 1960s-70s. Again, fully plausible to me as factions of the VLs were long-rumored to have close ties to LCN.

In short, an excellent book by a respected criminology scholar, but which seems to have largely been ignored by the mob enthusiast readership.

I have ordered this as well, great rec. Tony were you a member of the Maniac Latin Disciples?

[PolackTony]

Curious if any of you have read “The Insane Chicago Way” by John Haggedorn of University of Chicago?

Seems to be about Latin gangs in Chicago, working in concert with the outfit, attempting to model themselves after the mob. Lots of references to the C notes.

thinking of ordering it.

It’s an excellent book and I’ve been trying to get people here to read it for years lol.

To summarize. John Hagedorn is a veteran criminologist who has spent decades researching street gangs in Chicago and Milwaukee. Some time like around 2010, IIRC, an Italian kid took one of his courses at UIC on gangs and told Hagedorn that he knew some people who could tell him things. He wound up being put into contact with a guy who Hagedorn refers to by the pseudonym “Sal”. He describes Sal as a made guy with the Grand Ave crew, and Hagedorn conducts a series of in depth interviews with Sal over an extended period.

Sal tells Hagedorn that after Joey Lombardo, who he calls “the old man”, was released from prison in the early 90s, the Grand Ave crew under Lombardo’s direction spearheaded what was basically an outreach program to steer the organizational structure of the Latin Folks (the non-black organizations in the Folks alliance) via liaisons with the C-Notes. The Notes by this time had joined the Folks alliance under the banner of the “Insane” faction headed by the Spanish Cobras (a major PR gang). The motivations seems to have been the realization that “our people” (the Italians) were becoming a declining demographic and criminal force in Chicago and thus elements of the mafia sought to control the Hispanic organizations and push them into a more sophisticated, OC-oriented mode. With the C-Notes, the Grand Ave crew had access to the leadership of the “Tabla”’(the “Board”) of the Spanish Gangster Disciples Nation (aka “Spanish Growth and Development”), the deliberative and command echelon in the IL prison system for the Latin Folks (modeled on, but semi-autonomous from, the Black Gangster Disciples “Board” set up under “Chairman” Larry Hoover; Hoover, in turn, is apocryphally said to have modeled this structure on LCN). [should note here there is also an active street gang organization on the Northside of Chicago called SGDN; this was directly sponsored by the formation of the prison organization].

Long story short, this attempt to more fully organize the Latin Folks blew up pretty quickly in the 90s, in spectacular fashion, as bloody waves of gang warfare erupted on the streets of Humboldt Park, Logan Square, Hermosa etc., between the “Insane” and “Maniac” (the latter controlled by the Maniac Latin Disciples) factions (leading to a situation that while their leaders in prison all sat on the “Tabla” together, these organizations became implacable foes on the streets, a situations that pertains to this day).

Hagedorn has longstanding informant connections in the gang world and was able to corroborate and more fully flesh out the events of this period following his interviews with Sal. I can at least say that his account of the Insane/Maniac wars in the 90s is extremely accurate, as I lived through it and was a participant (to say that I am a “survivor” of these events isn’t hyperbole). I knew a number of the shooting victims and other actors that Hagedorm discusses. It also jibes with the general picture I had as a youth on the street: that not only the C-Notes (because duh, everyone know they were mobbed up) but also the Spanish Cobras had close ties to the mafia.

An interesting tangent in the book also comes from a separate interview that Hagedorn conducted with an informant that he calls “The Don”. This was not our good friend John Lennon, but rather the pseudonym that Hagedorn gave to an elderly Sicilian outfit member that Hagedorn was introduced to by a contact in the gang world. As part of the longer context of mafia-street gang contact, “The Don” told Hagedorn about longstanding ties between the outfit and black organizations on the Southside such as the Vice Lords and the Black P Stones, who “The Don” claimed outfit affiliates supplied with narcotics for street level distribution operations in the 1960s-70s. Again, fully plausible to me as factions of the VLs were long-rumored to have close ties to LCN.

In short, an excellent book by a respected criminology scholar, but which seems to have largely been ignored by the mob enthusiast readership.

I have ordered this as well, great rec. Tony were you a member of the Maniac Latin Disciples?

It's an important book for anyone interested in modern Chicago stuff IMO.

[PolackTony]

I've mentioned this to a few of you previously, but there is an 'Anthony Labalestra' who has a looming indictment in Northern District Illinois - I'm told that is the son of Pete Labalestra. Lots of speculation as to what it involves. Anthony has also been arrested several times for burglaries that seem more sophisticated than teenage/hooligan stuff. I'm not sure if anyone can access the actual indictment, but it would be interesting to see what's in there.

https://casetext.com/case/united-states-v-labalestra

He has already pled guilty to it. Possession of a firearm by a convicted felon and the sale or manufacture of firearms in exchange for money or narcotics. He sold 5 pistols and 1 "AR-Style rifle" to a couple of Colombians. He had previously been convicted of burglary and manufacture of ecstasy (two separate convictions). There was no indictment as he pled guilty and agreed to be prosecuted by "way of information." The most interesting part of the plea agreement is Labalestra's agreement to "fully and truthfully" cooperate when called upon by the Northern District of Illinois to provide testimony in any court proceeding. His sentencing (facing a maximum of 15 years) has been delayed until the completion of this cooperation. I had first thought he was going to cooperate against the Colombians he dealt with, but they have also pled guilty, so it must be concerning some other matter.

Wow thanks Snakes for finding this .Do you have any of the links handy where you got this? We've been looking into this for some time- you are gonna make me a hero to this goofball who sends me all these things. Can you also confirm this is indeed the son of Pietro Labalestra? I think Scott B's got his next Outfit article

Pietro LaBalestra does have a son, his only one so far as I know, named Anthony. In his early 40s. I’m pretty certain this is the same guy. He also had a burglary case back in 2007 when he was 17 for ripping off $20k in items from an electronics supply store with one of his buddies, which matches him having a prior burglary conviction. Clearly, the apple don’t fall far from the tree.

As a correction, Anthony is not Pietro's only kid (not aware that any of the others have been involved in any criminal activities). The rest of the above is correct, though.

I have discussed Pietro LaBalestra on some other threads previously, but worth noting again that the La Balestras are from Mola di Bari, which is also the hometown of Santino Colella and of the Calabrese brothers' father's family. Important hometown for both "first" and "second" wave immigrants to both Chicago and NYC (mainly Brooklyn), so it's unsurprising that these families in Chicago also have relatives in the NYC area.

[NorthBuffalo]

Santino Collela is in one of the photos I have (below). He and his wife own a pizza restaurant that is very popular (Nick and Bruno's) in Franklin Park. Fond of scratch off tickets I see from reading up on him

[Coloboy]

Is there anything out there tying him to the outfit?

[Coloboy]

Interesting. I have never heard of the Franco martinelli thing. I agree that there’s probably a lot of small day to day stuff that doesn’t make the news or get linked to the outfit.

And hell, if I was one of those older guys we talked about and had millions in real estate, businesses, and all that, I would keep my self distanced from the street shit too.

Not so sure about Solly D though. Remember Caparelli was recorded talking about Mickey Davis being “Solly D’s partner”, whatever that means. That was around 2015, but still pretty recent.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2010/09/ ... -invasion/

Article on Martinelli - that was clearly not a burglary and more of a debt scenario.

And I do think Solly probably has a few hundred thousand (potentially million) on the street that guys like Mickey Davis are using for juice - I think that is likely where it ends however. I also wonder how much of a return partnering in a juice operation in Chicago these days would net lol Davis was loaning out $200K at a time - this is big money still.

I think the days of small loans are done. People can use credit cards and payday loans for that stuff. But i bet there's still some pretty big money in larger loans that people use for business purchases and the like. A lot of people have shitty credit but still need financing. I would agree that a lot of the older guys like Solly D probably put out bigger loans filtered through multiple intermediaries that can never be traced back to them.