One case (hit) wonders

[gohnjotti]

Gravano.

Set the precedent. Publicity. Drew heat on every family. Bought LCN into the national spotlight.

In my research over the years, I've been lucky enough to make contact with certain connected/involved people from NY (predominantly Brooklyn), some of them cooperating witnesses although most of them not. It's incredibly how many of them reference Sammy the Bull's defection, without knowing him or being connected with his crew. With all the media attention and the grandeur surrounding the so-called Teflon Don, Sammy's defection is almost viewed in an historic, symbolic sense as a turning point of the Mafia and law enforcement's ability to combat them (that's my interpretation). Some even use Sammy's defection as an anchor point for remembering events in their own life - For example, "When did so-and-so buy the auto shop on so-and-so Avenue?" And the answer might be something like "It was like a year after Sammy flipped." I think that highlights the cultural impact of Sammy's defection on New York mobsters. Somebody in another thread (I think it might've been B.) articulated perfectly how mobsters testifying in court often have hazy memories on specific dates and years, since the Mob does not operate on a calendar, they don't stop for weekends nor for bank holidays.

I'd be curious to hear if Frank (Ridgewood) had a similar impression of Sammy's defection up in Queens.

[JeremyTheJew]

Commission case in a way was the beginning of the end also

Yup.
Could be argued sent the Lucchese family into a permanent downwood spiral.

Commission case was easily the most detrimental to MULTI families

Took out whole lucchesse admin and left it where psychos could take over ….. probably went from one of the most sophisticated crews to garbage

I’m surprised more isn’t gone into about PERSICO representating himself….. to me that in itself hadda be a show.
Brasco said perisco was going to question him but the other lawyers had to stop him he’s an idiot.

Genovese losing Tony was probably a big hit too

Castellano obviously but we killed right before - was there anyone else on the commission case for them??? Dellacroce was supposed to be on it I think but died before

Bonanno only had indelicato convicted - and actually them being kicked off the comission saved them from here probably

[JeremyTheJew]

Gravano.

Set the precedent. Publicity. Drew heat on every family. Bought LCN into the national spotlight.

In my research over the years, I've been lucky enough to make contact with certain connected/involved people from NY (predominantly Brooklyn), some of them cooperating witnesses although most of them not. It's incredibly how many of them reference Sammy the Bull's defection, without knowing him or being connected with his crew. With all the media attention and the grandeur surrounding the so-called Teflon Don, Sammy's defection is almost viewed in an historic, symbolic sense as a turning point of the Mafia and law enforcement's ability to combat them (that's my interpretation). Some even use Sammy's defection as an anchor point for remembering events in their own life - For example, "When did so-and-so buy the auto shop on so-and-so Avenue?" And the answer might be something like "It was like a year after Sammy flipped." I think that highlights the cultural impact of Sammy's defection on New York mobsters. Somebody in another thread (I think it might've been B.) articulated perfectly how mobsters testifying in court often have hazy memories on specific dates and years, since the Mob does not operate on a calendar, they don't stop for weekends nor for bank holidays.

I'd be curious to hear if Frank (Ridgewood) had a similar impression of Sammy's defection up in Queens.

I would definitely agree and it’s funny you said all that bc I was young when Sammy flipped and that’s technically how I got interested in mafia history - I was around 10 - and my dad talked about the rat gravano - and then we watched goodfellas and the rest was history

So it’s funny you said that

[gohnjotti]

Gravano.

Set the precedent. Publicity. Drew heat on every family. Bought LCN into the national spotlight.

In my research over the years, I've been lucky enough to make contact with certain connected/involved people from NY (predominantly Brooklyn), some of them cooperating witnesses although most of them not. It's incredibly how many of them reference Sammy the Bull's defection, without knowing him or being connected with his crew. With all the media attention and the grandeur surrounding the so-called Teflon Don, Sammy's defection is almost viewed in an historic, symbolic sense as a turning point of the Mafia and law enforcement's ability to combat them (that's my interpretation). Some even use Sammy's defection as an anchor point for remembering events in their own life - For example, "When did so-and-so buy the auto shop on so-and-so Avenue?" And the answer might be something like "It was like a year after Sammy flipped." I think that highlights the cultural impact of Sammy's defection on New York mobsters. Somebody in another thread (I think it might've been B.) articulated perfectly how mobsters testifying in court often have hazy memories on specific dates and years, since the Mob does not operate on a calendar, they don't stop for weekends nor for bank holidays.

I'd be curious to hear if Frank (Ridgewood) had a similar impression of Sammy's defection up in Queens.

I would definitely agree and it’s funny you said all that bc I was young when Sammy flipped and that’s technically how I got interested in mafia history - I was around 10 - and my dad talked about the rat gravano - and then we watched goodfellas and the rest was history

So it’s funny you said that

I'm sure you're not the only one. You're from Detroit, right? How much did they cover the local mob on the news there?

[Adam]

There wasn't much left of Cleveland after the big RICO case in the early 80s.

The case against Local 210 where the government took it over turned the Buffalo family into a minor-league operation.

The entire Stanfa faction was taken off the street by a sweeping RICO case, allowing the Merlino gang to take over.

Lenny Strollo flipping completely removed in one case organized crime from Youngstown and the Mahoning Valley's local governments, which had been completely dominated by it for decades.

All excellent examples

Was Lonoardo the first ranking UB to flip? Or would that be jimmy the weasel? Lonardo I think decimated the whole family

I think it's accepted that Fratianno was not an official underboss. Or even acting boss. I believe Lonardo was the first actual official underboss to flip. Guaranteeing that Sinito and Gallo go down as well. So that seems to have essentially destroyed that family. Now I've talked about this a lot on this forum and the previous forums, but I still don't know how involved Lonardo was in what was going on in Cleveland. His great lack of knowledge about what was going on in the family and his relatively weak testimony for other cases is confusing to me. But yeah, that destroyed Cleveland in my opinion.

[JeremyTheJew]

Gravano.

Set the precedent. Publicity. Drew heat on every family. Bought LCN into the national spotlight.

In my research over the years, I've been lucky enough to make contact with certain connected/involved people from NY (predominantly Brooklyn), some of them cooperating witnesses although most of them not. It's incredibly how many of them reference Sammy the Bull's defection, without knowing him or being connected with his crew. With all the media attention and the grandeur surrounding the so-called Teflon Don, Sammy's defection is almost viewed in an historic, symbolic sense as a turning point of the Mafia and law enforcement's ability to combat them (that's my interpretation). Some even use Sammy's defection as an anchor point for remembering events in their own life - For example, "When did so-and-so buy the auto shop on so-and-so Avenue?" And the answer might be something like "It was like a year after Sammy flipped." I think that highlights the cultural impact of Sammy's defection on New York mobsters. Somebody in another thread (I think it might've been B.) articulated perfectly how mobsters testifying in court often have hazy memories on specific dates and years, since the Mob does not operate on a calendar, they don't stop for weekends nor for bank holidays.

I'd be curious to hear if Frank (Ridgewood) had a similar impression of Sammy's defection up in Queens.

I would definitely agree and it’s funny you said all that bc I was young when Sammy flipped and that’s technically how I got interested in mafia history - I was around 10 - and my dad talked about the rat gravano - and then we watched goodfellas and the rest was history

So it’s funny you said that

I'm sure you're not the only one. You're from Detroit, right? How much did they cover the local mob on the news there?

So I was very young when it was actually going on so I’m not sure how much coverage DURING the case - but I know when the HBO movie came out it was a big deal bc my mom even wanted to rent it at blockbuster


And another thing is my family was always….. pro gangster life - my g father was a Jewish bookie and my uncles were “ex purple gang”

So I was exposed to the life early on and loved it so I’m not a good one to ask

[gohnjotti]

Gravano.

Set the precedent. Publicity. Drew heat on every family. Bought LCN into the national spotlight.

In my research over the years, I've been lucky enough to make contact with certain connected/involved people from NY (predominantly Brooklyn), some of them cooperating witnesses although most of them not. It's incredibly how many of them reference Sammy the Bull's defection, without knowing him or being connected with his crew. With all the media attention and the grandeur surrounding the so-called Teflon Don, Sammy's defection is almost viewed in an historic, symbolic sense as a turning point of the Mafia and law enforcement's ability to combat them (that's my interpretation). Some even use Sammy's defection as an anchor point for remembering events in their own life - For example, "When did so-and-so buy the auto shop on so-and-so Avenue?" And the answer might be something like "It was like a year after Sammy flipped." I think that highlights the cultural impact of Sammy's defection on New York mobsters. Somebody in another thread (I think it might've been B.) articulated perfectly how mobsters testifying in court often have hazy memories on specific dates and years, since the Mob does not operate on a calendar, they don't stop for weekends nor for bank holidays.

I'd be curious to hear if Frank (Ridgewood) had a similar impression of Sammy's defection up in Queens.

I would definitely agree and it’s funny you said all that bc I was young when Sammy flipped and that’s technically how I got interested in mafia history - I was around 10 - and my dad talked about the rat gravano - and then we watched goodfellas and the rest was history

So it’s funny you said that

I'm sure you're not the only one. You're from Detroit, right? How much did they cover the local mob on the news there?

So I was very young when it was actually going on so I’m not sure how much coverage DURING the case - but I know when the HBO movie came out it was a big deal bc my mom even wanted to rent it at blockbuster


And another thing is my family was always….. pro gangster life - my g father was a Jewish bookie and my uncles were “ex purple gang”

So I was exposed to the life early on and loved it so I’m not a good one to ask

Thanks Jeremy, the people I've spoken to from Brooklyn have been in or around that life too so the same applies there. I think Sammy the Bull's defection shattered the perception of an invincible criminal entity for a lot of young New York criminals, even more so than the Commission Case since there was no 'smoking gun' witness there like Sammy. One person I spoke to used Sammy's defection as an estimated turning point for when social clubs started to become more clandestine rather than the flashy, neighborhood characters he perceived them as in the '80s. Obviously it's an oversimplified explanation to say Sammy's defection resulted in that (after all, there were multiple prosecutions across all Five Families during that period), but it seems to be a moment that people point to as the beginning of the end.

[Adam]

Gravano.

Set the precedent. Publicity. Drew heat on every family. Bought LCN into the national spotlight.

In my research over the years, I've been lucky enough to make contact with certain connected/involved people from NY (predominantly Brooklyn), some of them cooperating witnesses although most of them not. It's incredibly how many of them reference Sammy the Bull's defection, without knowing him or being connected with his crew. With all the media attention and the grandeur surrounding the so-called Teflon Don, Sammy's defection is almost viewed in an historic, symbolic sense as a turning point of the Mafia and law enforcement's ability to combat them (that's my interpretation). Some even use Sammy's defection as an anchor point for remembering events in their own life - For example, "When did so-and-so buy the auto shop on so-and-so Avenue?" And the answer might be something like "It was like a year after Sammy flipped." I think that highlights the cultural impact of Sammy's defection on New York mobsters. Somebody in another thread (I think it might've been B.) articulated perfectly how mobsters testifying in court often have hazy memories on specific dates and years, since the Mob does not operate on a calendar, they don't stop for weekends nor for bank holidays.

I'd be curious to hear if Frank (Ridgewood) had a similar impression of Sammy's defection up in Queens.

I would definitely agree and it’s funny you said all that bc I was young when Sammy flipped and that’s technically how I got interested in mafia history - I was around 10 - and my dad talked about the rat gravano - and then we watched goodfellas and the rest was history

So it’s funny you said that

I'm sure you're not the only one. You're from Detroit, right? How much did they cover the local mob on the news there?

Not to speak for others, but mob coverage in local news in the Detroit area is weird and has been historically. I literally have corresponded with a journalist and later author who's job was to cover crime for the Detroit Free Press in the early 90s. And there actually was a lot of stuff that hit the news back then but he literally said certain stories were shut down pre 1996 because they didn't want to get sued for mentioning names. Like political donations to people like Jack Tocco. And we're not even going into the whole Anthony Lapiana thing. Where it's almost impossible to find him mentioned in articles in the search engines available for news papers. Even when he's mentioned in articles about the murder of Ralph Proctor. There's a reason for that. But in researching the mob for a long time, Free Press and News were good for the big things, major busts, but so much stuff went completely under the radar in terms of reporting. Like murders just being reported as "body found" and no reference to how the mob was related. Very different from other cities. Even when they're actual mobsters. So it's been different.

[JeremyTheJew]

Gravano.

Set the precedent. Publicity. Drew heat on every family. Bought LCN into the national spotlight.

In my research over the years, I've been lucky enough to make contact with certain connected/involved people from NY (predominantly Brooklyn), some of them cooperating witnesses although most of them not. It's incredibly how many of them reference Sammy the Bull's defection, without knowing him or being connected with his crew. With all the media attention and the grandeur surrounding the so-called Teflon Don, Sammy's defection is almost viewed in an historic, symbolic sense as a turning point of the Mafia and law enforcement's ability to combat them (that's my interpretation). Some even use Sammy's defection as an anchor point for remembering events in their own life - For example, "When did so-and-so buy the auto shop on so-and-so Avenue?" And the answer might be something like "It was like a year after Sammy flipped." I think that highlights the cultural impact of Sammy's defection on New York mobsters. Somebody in another thread (I think it might've been B.) articulated perfectly how mobsters testifying in court often have hazy memories on specific dates and years, since the Mob does not operate on a calendar, they don't stop for weekends nor for bank holidays.

I'd be curious to hear if Frank (Ridgewood) had a similar impression of Sammy's defection up in Queens.

I would definitely agree and it’s funny you said all that bc I was young when Sammy flipped and that’s technically how I got interested in mafia history - I was around 10 - and my dad talked about the rat gravano - and then we watched goodfellas and the rest was history

So it’s funny you said that

I'm sure you're not the only one. You're from Detroit, right? How much did they cover the local mob on the news there?

Not to speak for others, but mob coverage in local news in the Detroit area is weird and has been historically. I literally have corresponded with a journalist and later author who's job was to cover crime for the Detroit Free Press in the early 90s. And there actually was a lot of stuff that hit the news back then but he literally said certain stories were shut down pre 1996 because they didn't want to get sued for mentioning names. Like political donations to people like Jack Tocco. And we're not even going into the whole Anthony Lapiana thing. Where it's almost impossible to find him mentioned in articles in the search engines available for news papers. Even when he's mentioned in articles about the murder of Ralph Proctor. There's a reason for that. But in researching the mob for a long time, Free Press and News were good for the big things, major busts, but so much stuff went completely under the radar in terms of reporting. Like murders just being reported as "body found" and no reference to how the mob was related. Very different from other cities. Even when they're actual mobsters. So it's been different.

Didn’t jack tocco even pull a mini “Colombo” and went picketing the Detroit FBI office with signs saying there harassing Italians???

See Detroit really is unlike anywhere else and people don’t get it unless you’re here. Everything is backwards here.

In all major cities you have the major cities and the bad areas surround the majors …. Not like Detroit where the whole city is the bad area. Detroit politically is backwards

From the raciest mayor who had a hall named after him (COBO HALL)
To the first playboy mayor who ended up getting 20 years jn prison for all his scandals (including a un proven murder) - kwame kilpatrick

But also - if u live here you’d understand the local landscape…. People here KNOW who runs what…. Icewear Vezzo said in one his songs “I’m a mob boss - call me GIACALONE”

Detroit in my eyes is like Chicago where we have the Sicilians clans but they have multi ethnicities too…. Like the Chaldeans and Jews are very prevalent here also

And in Detroits it’s also a. Street code mentality city
We don’t have many police that come in actual relevant time when they are called

Lot of things are brushed under the rug…..

[JeremyTheJew]

Gravano.

Set the precedent. Publicity. Drew heat on every family. Bought LCN into the national spotlight.

In my research over the years, I've been lucky enough to make contact with certain connected/involved people from NY (predominantly Brooklyn), some of them cooperating witnesses although most of them not. It's incredibly how many of them reference Sammy the Bull's defection, without knowing him or being connected with his crew. With all the media attention and the grandeur surrounding the so-called Teflon Don, Sammy's defection is almost viewed in an historic, symbolic sense as a turning point of the Mafia and law enforcement's ability to combat them (that's my interpretation). Some even use Sammy's defection as an anchor point for remembering events in their own life - For example, "When did so-and-so buy the auto shop on so-and-so Avenue?" And the answer might be something like "It was like a year after Sammy flipped." I think that highlights the cultural impact of Sammy's defection on New York mobsters. Somebody in another thread (I think it might've been B.) articulated perfectly how mobsters testifying in court often have hazy memories on specific dates and years, since the Mob does not operate on a calendar, they don't stop for weekends nor for bank holidays.

I'd be curious to hear if Frank (Ridgewood) had a similar impression of Sammy's defection up in Queens.

I would definitely agree and it’s funny you said all that bc I was young when Sammy flipped and that’s technically how I got interested in mafia history - I was around 10 - and my dad talked about the rat gravano - and then we watched goodfellas and the rest was history

So it’s funny you said that

I'm sure you're not the only one. You're from Detroit, right? How much did they cover the local mob on the news there?

So I was very young when it was actually going on so I’m not sure how much coverage DURING the case - but I know when the HBO movie came out it was a big deal bc my mom even wanted to rent it at blockbuster


And another thing is my family was always….. pro gangster life - my g father was a Jewish bookie and my uncles were “ex purple gang”

So I was exposed to the life early on and loved it so I’m not a good one to ask

Thanks Jeremy, the people I've spoken to from Brooklyn have been in or around that life too so the same applies there. I think Sammy the Bull's defection shattered the perception of an invincible criminal entity for a lot of young New York criminals, even more so than the Commission Case since there was no 'smoking gun' witness there like Sammy. One person I spoke to used Sammy's defection as an estimated turning point for when social clubs started to become more clandestine rather than the flashy, neighborhood characters he perceived them as in the '80s. Obviously it's an oversimplified explanation to say Sammy's defection resulted in that (after all, there were multiple prosecutions across all Five Families during that period), but it seems to be a moment that people point to as the beginning of the end.

Also remember Gotti was THE celebrity gangster that everyone liked like Robin Hood. From the dapper moniker to the Teflon moniker he was looked at like the people’s gangster.

So when Sammy - Gotti’s right hand - flipped - it was like such a shock I think because it was also speaking on how “the code of the street” was just DEAD at that point. Friends flipping on friends. No more just Henry hill a strung out hanger on tryna stay outta jail - we got TOP guys now who were supposed to take it on the chin (pun intended)

So I think it really was the beginning of the end.
Imagine if Gravano DIDNT flip - it would of been a whole different landscape now I would bet

[SonnyBlackstein]

Gravano.

Set the precedent. Publicity. Drew heat on every family. Bought LCN into the national spotlight.

In my research over the years, I've been lucky enough to make contact with certain connected/involved people from NY (predominantly Brooklyn), some of them cooperating witnesses although most of them not. It's incredibly how many of them reference Sammy the Bull's defection, without knowing him or being connected with his crew. With all the media attention and the grandeur surrounding the so-called Teflon Don, Sammy's defection is almost viewed in an historic, symbolic sense as a turning point of the Mafia and law enforcement's ability to combat them (that's my interpretation). Some even use Sammy's defection as an anchor point for remembering events in their own life - For example, "When did so-and-so buy the auto shop on so-and-so Avenue?" And the answer might be something like "It was like a year after Sammy flipped." I think that highlights the cultural impact of Sammy's defection on New York mobsters. Somebody in another thread (I think it might've been B.) articulated perfectly how mobsters testifying in court often have hazy memories on specific dates and years, since the Mob does not operate on a calendar, they don't stop for weekends nor for bank holidays.

I'd be curious to hear if Frank (Ridgewood) had a similar impression of Sammy's defection up in Queens.

You stated my thoughts more eloquently and concisely than I could mate.

Sonny in a nutshell.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Do we think Joe Bonanno being overthrown was a catalyst to the down fall of the family and LCN in general.

Was it a cultural change? A change in values for LCN?

[Hired_Goonz]

That indictment that hit the DeCavalcantes in 1999 started a chain reaction that really devastated the family, lust look at how many guys flipped.

The Vinny Ocean case ? Or pre Vinny ocean? I read MADE MEN but that’s all I know for decavs

Just going by memory here but not sure if Vinny Ocean was caught up in the first indictment or not. I believe Anthony Rotondo was and so was Anthony Capo. If memory serves there was another big indictment in 2000 spinning out of the first one and then another in 2001.