boss of bosses

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East Bronx
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Re: boss of bosses

Post by East Bronx »

Chris Christie wrote:But honestly, you've been around Harlem and the Bronx for much of your life, you've seen first hand the slow and gradual decline of things. You look at the 80's, 90's, 00's, '10, what's your own take on where things are going? Lower Manhattan is gone and half of Brooklyn moved to Staten Island. Back in the 1970's it was 'common knowledge' that the mob would never die, no one boldly states that in NYC anymore. No right or wrong (unless you think I'm wrong) but what's your take on the last few decades and where do you see it going?
Well, first off, Harlem is as "gone" as Lower Manhattan. But for much different reasons. Lower Manhattan in gentrified, where East Harlem is over 90 percent Latino now. But the developers are making inroads to gentrify uptown, too. Hell, if it wasn't for the real estate bubble back around 2006 or so, Central Harlem would be sporting nothing but new condos and Starbucks right about now. But the movement is picking up some steam again now that the economy has picked up a little bit. And it's a shame, too. Because when you remove the blue collar families who have been in New York City for generations, it's not New York City anymore. My position there may surprise you being that you know how I make my living, but I say it all the time. I'd much rather rent to blue collar folks who have been here for generations that to some hipsters from Wisconsin. But I'm getting off-topic now.

As far as the future of OC, my stock answer is this: OC will always be around because criminal minded people will always exist. If you were to take food and shelter away from even the wealthiest and most refined people, in a week or so you'd find out that Darwin was right about everything. Survival of the fittest and all that. And having said that, as Italian Americans continue to assimilate and climb the social ladder in the United States, it can't help but affect the face of organized crime. Long story short, I think things will remain the way they are for another generation or so. Beyond that, it's like I said, OC will be around, but the face of it will have to change drastically. Because this isn't Italy or Sicily where it's ingrained into the cultural fabric of the country.
"Listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in your first half-hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker." ---- Rounders.
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Angelo Santino
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Re: boss of bosses

Post by Angelo Santino »

I was referring more specifically to The Mafia- LCN - Traditional Italian Organized Crime... organized crime itself will last forever but the Traditional Italian model is fading. It's like the Irish who in the 1880's owned the docks, they got displaced with new emerging demographics. The Spanish in Harlem will never master what the Italians did there before them, but that doesn't alter the fact that it's the Spanish who have more of a criminal presence inside what constitutes the Harlem Underworld today. The Italian mob is going away like the cowboys.

In your opinion- and that's all it is- how long do you see Traditional Italian OC lasting into the future, given the changes and trends you've witnessed over the past several decades. My own opinion/prediction is that the NY LCN will be like Cleveland or Pittsburgh by 2050, a few dangling older retirees who remember the old days (today).
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East Bronx
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Re: boss of bosses

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Chris Christie wrote:I was referring more specifically to The Mafia- LCN - Traditional Italian Organized Crime... organized crime itself will last forever but the Traditional Italian model is fading. It's like the Irish who in the 1880's owned the docks, they got displaced with new emerging demographics. The Spanish in Harlem will never master what the Italians did there before them, but that doesn't alter the fact that it's the Spanish who have more of a criminal presence inside what constitutes the Harlem Underworld today. The Italian mob is going away like the cowboys.

In your opinion- and that's all it is- how long do you see Traditional Italian OC lasting into the future, given the changes and trends you've witnessed over the past several decades. My own opinion/prediction is that the NY LCN will be like Cleveland or Pittsburgh by 2050, a few dangling older retirees who remember the old days (today).
I agree with that assessment. 100 percent.
"Listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in your first half-hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker." ---- Rounders.
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Angelo Santino
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Re: boss of bosses

Post by Angelo Santino »

Chicago wrote:I also agree except it will end up the way you stated much earlier than 2050 in Chicago, probably by around 2030.
However, don't say it too loud over there on gangsterbb because a couple of those Chicago fanboys will get upset about hearing reality. :lol:
Fifteen years? I think they have longer but 3 or 4 roundups like the Stefanelli bust a few years back might do it in that time.
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Re: boss of bosses

Post by Pete »

Chicago wrote:I also agree except it will end up the way you stated much earlier than 2050 in Chicago, probably by around 2030.
However, don't say it too loud over there on gangsterbb because a couple of those Chicago fanboys will get upset about hearing reality. :lol:
It won't be over in 2030 that's only 15 years away all the current outfit guys in their 40's and 50's will still be active then. Maybe 2050 but I have trouble believing it will completely dissapear anytime soon though it will continue to weaken. Don't forget with the guys made in recent years the outfit has slightly more members than 15 years ago when difronzo wasn't making anyone. It seems around 10 guys were made since then subtract the 5 or so that have died and you have a small surplus. I would guess the membership will hover around the current amount for the next 20 years there's still a bunch of guys in their 30's who want a button
I agree with phat,I love those old fucks and he's right.we all got some cosa nostra in us.I personnely love the life.I think we on the forum would be the ultimate crew! - camerono
Noochynewarker
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Re: boss of bosses

Post by Noochynewarker »

Johnny boy definitely thought he was in his own mind
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Wiseguy
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Re: boss of bosses

Post by Wiseguy »

Pete wrote:It won't be over in 2030 that's only 15 years away all the current outfit guys in their 40's and 50's will still be active then. Maybe 2050 but I have trouble believing it will completely dissapear anytime soon though it will continue to weaken. Don't forget with the guys made in recent years the outfit has slightly more members than 15 years ago when difronzo wasn't making anyone. It seems around 10 guys were made since then subtract the 5 or so that have died and you have a small surplus. I would guess the membership will hover around the current amount for the next 20 years there's still a bunch of guys in their 30's who want a button
Where have we seen that 10 new members have been made over the past 15 years? And it seems a lot more than 5 members have died over that time.


Members/Possible Members Who Have Died Since 2000:

Donald "Angel" Angelini (2000)
Dominick "Dom" Basso (2001)
Carmine "Carmen" Bastone (2002)
Frank Bonavolante (2002)
Frank "The Horse" Buccieri (2004)
Eugene "Gene" Cacciatore (2000)
Marshall “Shoes” Caifano (2003)
Frank James Calabrese Sr (2012)
Michael "Mike" Castaldo (2005)
Anthony Centracchio (2001)
Anthony "Tony the Hatch" Chiaramonti (2001) (Killed)
Vincent “Jimmy” Cozzo (2007)
Charles "Charlie Specs" DiCaro (2011)
James “Jim” DiForti (2000)
Nicholas Guzzino
Ernest “Rocky” Infelise (2005)
Joseph "Shorty" LaMantia (2002)
Philip "Phil" Mesi (2001)
William “Willie” Messino (2002)
John “Johnny Apes” Monteleone (2001)
Bernard "Snookie" Morgano (2010)
Salvatore Muserino (2004)
Romeo "Jack" Nappi (2001)
Dominick “Tootsie” Palermo (2005)
Charles Parrilli (2005)
Aldo "Junior" Piscitelli (2013)
Albert “Chickie” Rovario (2003)
Donald "Sponge" Scalise (2013)
Albert “Al the Fox” Tocco (2005)
Alphonse “Al the Pizza Man” Tornabene (2009)
Anthony "Little Tony/The Trucker" Zizzo (2006) (Killed)
All roads lead to New York.
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East Bronx
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Re: boss of bosses

Post by East Bronx »

Noochynewarker wrote:Johnny boy definitely thought he was in his own mind
Gotti? I don't think so.

Sure, John was an egomaniac. But I don't think he ever fancied Gigante as being subservient to him. And in hindsight it's almost ridiculous. And to be fair, Vince had to be a little leery of Gotti, too.
Last edited by East Bronx on Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in your first half-hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker." ---- Rounders.
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Re: boss of bosses

Post by JBELL »

East Bronx wrote:
Noochynewarker wrote:Johnny boy definitely thought he was in his own mind
Gotti? I don't think so.

Sure, John was an egomaniac. But I don't think he ever fancied Gigante as being subservient to him. And it hindsight it's almost ridiculous. And to be fair, Vince had to be a little leery of Gotti, too.
EB is it humanly possible for you to know every wiseguy Cherry Hill to Yonkers? Junior Gotti was your wedding yeah sure he was :roll:
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Angelo Santino
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Re: boss of bosses

Post by Angelo Santino »

East Bronx wrote:
Noochynewarker wrote:Johnny boy definitely thought he was in his own mind
Gotti? I don't think so.

Sure, John was an egomaniac. But I don't think he ever fancied Gigante as being subservient to him. And in hindsight it's almost ridiculous. And to be fair, Vince had to be a little leery of Gotti, too.
Agreed. Being successful in organized crime requires the ability to make alliances, which is why most bosses tend to be pragmatists in dealing with each other.
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Re: boss of bosses

Post by Rocco »

JBELL wrote:
East Bronx wrote:
Noochynewarker wrote:Johnny boy definitely thought he was in his own mind
Gotti? I don't think so.

Sure, John was an egomaniac. But I don't think he ever fancied Gigante as being subservient to him. And it hindsight it's almost ridiculous. And to be fair, Vince had to be a little leery of Gotti, too.
I don't think Gotti ever thought for a minute that he could out smart Gigante. I think Gotti's ego maybe got in the way of thinking that anyone would dare put a hit on him until he got wind of it later on. Gotti had no Idea Chin had put a contract on his life until later. Gotti was also some what impressed by Chin when he met him and found out he was staying in the Condo unit after heart surgery etc. And on the flip side...Chin knew Gotti was a dangerous guy. But I don't think for a minute that Gotti was smarter than Chin because he clearly wasn't. Had Gotti not been picked up I think eventually Chin would have succeeded in killing him.
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East Bronx
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Re: boss of bosses

Post by East Bronx »

Rocco wrote:Had Gotti not been picked up I think eventually Chin would have succeeded in killing him.
That's always been my position too, Rocco. I've posted it ad nauseam over the years.
"Listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in your first half-hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker." ---- Rounders.
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Snakes
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Re: boss of bosses

Post by Snakes »

Wiseguy wrote:
Pete wrote:It won't be over in 2030 that's only 15 years away all the current outfit guys in their 40's and 50's will still be active then. Maybe 2050 but I have trouble believing it will completely dissapear anytime soon though it will continue to weaken. Don't forget with the guys made in recent years the outfit has slightly more members than 15 years ago when difronzo wasn't making anyone. It seems around 10 guys were made since then subtract the 5 or so that have died and you have a small surplus. I would guess the membership will hover around the current amount for the next 20 years there's still a bunch of guys in their 30's who want a button
Where have we seen that 10 new members have been made over the past 15 years? And it seems a lot more than 5 members have died over that time.


Members/Possible Members Who Have Died Since 2000:

Donald "Angel" Angelini (2000)
Dominick "Dom" Basso (2001)
Carmine "Carmen" Bastone (2002)
Frank Bonavolante (2002)
Frank "The Horse" Buccieri (2004)
Eugene "Gene" Cacciatore (2000)
Marshall “Shoes” Caifano (2003)
Frank James Calabrese Sr (2012)
Michael "Mike" Castaldo (2005)
Anthony Centracchio (2001)
Anthony "Tony the Hatch" Chiaramonti (2001) (Killed)
Vincent “Jimmy” Cozzo (2007)
Charles "Charlie Specs" DiCaro (2011)
James “Jim” DiForti (2000)
Nicholas Guzzino
Ernest “Rocky” Infelise (2005)
Joseph "Shorty" LaMantia (2002)
Philip "Phil" Mesi (2001)
William “Willie” Messino (2002)
John “Johnny Apes” Monteleone (2001)
Bernard "Snookie" Morgano (2010)
Salvatore Muserino (2004)
Romeo "Jack" Nappi (2001)
Dominick “Tootsie” Palermo (2005)
Charles Parrilli (2005)
Aldo "Junior" Piscitelli (2013)
Albert “Chickie” Rovario (2003)
Donald "Sponge" Scalise (2013)
Albert “Al the Fox” Tocco (2005)
Alphonse “Al the Pizza Man” Tornabene (2009)
Anthony "Little Tony/The Trucker" Zizzo (2006) (Killed)
Pretty sure Nick Guzzino is still alive, that looks like the list I posted on the old forum a while back so maybe I made a mistake and accidentally placed him with the deceased.

This is a list of 41 guys that I compiled that are possibly made. Subtract the seven that are in jail (*) and probably another seven or so for inactivity and you have 27, roughly on par with federal estimates for active members:

Abbinanti, Robert (59)
Andriacchi, Joseph (82)
Bellavia, Robert* (75)
Calabrese, Nicholas (WITSEC) (71)
Calato, Joseph (64)
Caruso, Bruno (71)
Caruso, Frank (68)
Cataudella, Nicholas (54)
Cataudella, Salvatore (62)
Cozzo, Phillip (57)
D'Amico, Marco (78)
DeLaurentis, Salvatore (76)
DiFronzo, John (85)
DiFronzo, Joseph (79)
DiFronzo, Peter (81)
Dominic, Robert (63)
Dote, Anthony (62)
Fratto, Rudolph (70)
Gagliano, Gary (70)
Granata, Anthony (54)
Grieco, Joseph (86)
Guzzino, Nicholas (73)
Inendino, James (71)
Lombardo, Joseph* (85)
Magnafichi, Michael (52)
Marcello, James* (70)
Marcello, Michael (63)
Marino, Dino (56)
Marino, Louis (82)
Matassa, John Jr. (63)
Matassa, Thomas (68)
Mazza, Francis (62)
Salerno, Robert* (80)
Sarno, Michael* (56)
Scalise, Joseph* (76)
Spano, Michael Sr.* (74)
Spina, Anthony (60)
Spina, John Jr.
Spina, Chris (61)
Tominello, Raymond (74)
Vena, Albert (66)
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Angelo Santino
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Re: boss of bosses

Post by Angelo Santino »

East Bronx wrote:
Rocco wrote:Had Gotti not been picked up I think eventually Chin would have succeeded in killing him.
That's always been my position too, Rocco. I've posted it ad nauseam over the years.
My own worthless 2cents is that Gotti and Chin were achiral images of each other. Wearing a 2000 dollar suit and walking around in a bathrobe are two sides of extremities. Gotti (according to Gravano) believed he could cultivate a popular media image, Chin thought he could fake mental illness. But it doesn't matter because between those two extemes, lesser covered bosses in the other families went down at the same time Gotti and Gigante did. If Gotti crashed and burned in '91 while the other 4 bosses went onto become 4 Gamcardos with 20 year reigns then the argument of Gotti's style would have more merit. But it seems everyone went down at about the same time (early 90's). And if you're going to be a boss and then go to prison to die, do you really want 5 Chin years or 5 Gotti years? Granted Chin lasted a little longer out of prison but he was still facing legal problems by 92.

If I had to walk around in a bath robe and piss in the street in open public in order to be a successful criminal, I'd just conclude it's not worth the effort and get a job but that's me.
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East Bronx
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Re: boss of bosses

Post by East Bronx »

Chris Christie wrote:
East Bronx wrote:
Rocco wrote:Had Gotti not been picked up I think eventually Chin would have succeeded in killing him.
That's always been my position too, Rocco. I've posted it ad nauseam over the years.
My own worthless 2cents is that Gotti and Chin were achiral images of each other. Wearing a 2000 dollar suit and walking around in a bathrobe are two sides of extremities. Gotti (according to Gravano) believed he could cultivate a popular media image, Chin thought he could fake mental illness. But it doesn't matter because between those two extemes, lesser covered bosses in the other families went down at the same time Gotti and Gigante did. If Gotti crashed and burned in '91 while the other 4 bosses went onto become 4 Gamcardos with 20 year reigns then the argument of Gotti's style would have more merit. But it seems everyone went down at about the same time (early 90's). And if you're going to be a boss and then go to prison to die, do you really want 5 Chin years or 5 Gotti years? Granted Chin lasted a little longer out of prison but he was still facing legal problems by 92.

If I had to walk around in a bath robe and piss in the street in open public in order to be a successful criminal, I'd just conclude it's not worth the effort and get a job but that's me.
It's not worthless, Christie. What you say has a lot of merit. But it should be noted that if you take Gigante's years as a skipper and ad them to his run as boss, he had thirty years as a powerhouse in the street after he came home from the dope pinch. Gotti didn't have half that.
"Listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in your first half-hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker." ---- Rounders.
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