Kansas City Mob Today

[NickleCity]

Sorry I put the wrong screenshot to this in my original post. Here is the correct one.

Or perhaps federal law enforcement just didn’t do a good enough job. Indeed some FBI agents imply the FBI leadership didn’t do enough to go after the “alleged” buffalo mob during the alleged “Todaro” era:

[Wiseguy]

Attrition has been beat to death. We already know it's effects. It's not the end all be all

It's been the #1 killer of LCN families across the country, more than any other factor. And the reason its been beaten to death is precisely because people haven't understood its effects and continue to underestimate them.

Still not the end all be all and how you're trying to use it as a pairing to say how the feds prove viability...in relation to indictments

I'm not sure what you guys are getting at but my point is, whatever the feds lacked in the way of indicting the top level of the Buffalo mob over the years, attrition more than made up for it. Hence the reason they have 11 identified remaining members, most of whom are in their 80s and 90s and inactive. If people adequately understood attrition and its effects, we wouldn't be having this discussion in a thread about "Kansas City today," to say nothing of a hundreds pages long Buffalo thread.

[Newyorkempire]

Attrition has been beat to death. We already know it's effects. It's not the end all be all

It's been the #1 killer of LCN families across the country, more than any other factor. And the reason its been beaten to death is precisely because people haven't understood its effects and continue to underestimate them.

Still not the end all be all and how you're trying to use it as a pairing to say how the feds prove viability...in relation to indictments

I'm not sure what you guys are getting at but my point is, whatever the feds lacked in the way of indicting the top level of the Buffalo mob over the years, attrition more than made up for it. Hence the reason they have 11 identified remaining members, most of whom are in their 80s and 90s and inactive. If people adequately understood attrition and its effects, we wouldn't be having this discussion in a thread about "Kansas City today," to say nothing of a hundreds pages long Buffalo thread.

Again. There isn't 11 identified members. Buffalo consists of both members in NY and Ontario. A chart hasn't come out in years and the Feds know nothing about making ceremonies that have happened in the last 20+ years. Youre threshold isnt all of the rest of ours threshold, nor is the Feds word. They cant be trusted on so many levels with so many things, not just mafia stats....as far as Kansas City, if there's 6 remaining guys left according to the Feds the same applies. They're viable. They exist. They are working. They are committing crimes in unison. A boss holds a spot. He is recognized by other families. Viable regardless of indictments. They're just not top priority in these cities, due not necessarily to attrition but other groups committing worse crimes together.

[Wiseguy]

Again. There isn't 11 identified members.

Yes, there are 11 identified (i.e. confirmed) members.

Buffalo consists of both members in NY and Ontario.

Yes, 8 in Buffalo, 3 in Canada.

A chart hasn't come out in years

That alone should tell you something.

and the Feds know nothing about making ceremonies that have happened in the last 20+ years.

And how would you know that?

Youre threshold isnt all of the rest of ours threshold, nor is the Feds word.

There you go again, talking like you speak for everyone else.

They cant be trusted on so many levels with so many things, not just mafia stats....

That you actually think that speaks volumes.

as far as Kansas City, if there's 6 remaining guys left according to the Feds the same applies

They don't even have 6.

They're viable. They exist. They are working. They are committing crimes in unison.

There is nothing to base that on.

A boss holds a spot. He is recognized by other families. Viable regardless of indictments.

Who, Sciortino? And what other families? Just curious, who's claiming any of this besides internet forum talk and some guy named Burnstein?

They're just not top priority in these cities, due not necessarily to attrition but other groups committing worse crimes together.

They're not any priority.

[Newyorkempire]

Again. There isn't 11 identified members.

Yes, there are 11 identified (i.e. confirmed) members.

Buffalo consists of both members in NY and Ontario.

Yes, 8 in Buffalo, 3 in Canada.

A chart hasn't come out in years

That alone should tell you something.

and the Feds know nothing about making ceremonies that have happened in the last 20+ years.

And how would you know that?

Youre threshold isnt all of the rest of ours threshold, nor is the Feds word.

There you go again, talking like you speak for everyone else.

They cant be trusted on so many levels with so many things, not just mafia stats....

That you actually think that speaks volumes.

as far as Kansas City, if there's 6 remaining guys left according to the Feds the same applies

They don't even have 6.

They're viable. They exist. They are working. They are committing crimes in unison.

There is nothing to base that on.

A boss holds a spot. He is recognized by other families. Viable regardless of indictments.

Who, Sciortino? And what other families? Just curious, who's claiming any of this besides internet forum talk and some guy named Burnstein?

They're just not top priority in these cities, due not necessarily to attrition but other groups committing worse crimes together.

They're not any priority.

There's more than 8 in Buffalo and more than 3 in Ontario. Been over this at nauseum.

No chart means they aren't a priority, they don't kill, like they use to, kidnap or push fentanyl or blow up federal buildings. That's what it tells me.

I would know that because they haven't said so.

I'm not speaking for EVERYONE. I didn't say everyone. The fact you think that shows your broadsweeping attempt to group everyone together. I know I speak for more than zero.

The FEDS can't even protect a president from an attempted assassin yet they know everything about a Mafia family? Nah. That's what speaks volumes. Common sense to me. The fact you can't correlate certain things speaks volumes

There's about 6 members. You're playing semantics.

If Sciortino is in fact boss he is recognized by other families. Just like Papalardo in Cleveland is. Falzo in Tampa is. Etc. The fact you still don't get it or use your own logic to stretch into other topics is telling.

If they've been arrested at all in the last decade they are a priority. Just not the top priority. Indictments don't prove viability or Buffalo never existed. As stated above by Nickle

[Ivan]

Just like Papalardo in Cleveland is.

Just to clarify what I've related here on the dude as told to me by my Cleveland people is that Papalardo is regarded as "representing" Cleveland among the Cosa Nostra nationally even though there's no family besides him and maybe a handful of aging non-made associates, and he's a rich octogenarian who is enjoying his golden years and never does anything illegal. It's probably more "ceremonial" than anything at this point. I've never heard him identified as having the boss rank; I've asked about this and the response is always the "Boss of what?" rhetorical question. Last known boss in Cleveland was Joe Iacobacci.

My overall impression is that the remnant "family" of associates run by Iacobacci finally fizzled out in the mid 2010s when Iacobacci retired. Everyone got old and died.

If this Sciortino chap is a "boss" in Kansas City, his "family" is probably like what Cleveland was like circa 2005.

[Wiseguy]

There's more than 8 in Buffalo and more than 3 in Ontario. Been over this at nauseum.

Yes, we have. And the best any can come up with is a handful of guys who "could be member," a "possible member," or "either a member or associate."

No chart means they aren't a priority, they don't kill, like they use to, kidnap or push fentanyl or blow up federal buildings. That's what it tells me.

Of course no chart couldn't possibly be the result of there being no hierarchy left to chart.

I would know that because they haven't said so.

First, why would you assume there have been multiple ceremonies over that time period? Second, maybe they haven't commented because there has been little to comment on. And the little there has been to comment on, like Violi or the Bonanno ceremony, they HAVE commented on.

I'm not speaking for EVERYONE. I didn't say everyone. The fact you think that shows your broadsweeping attempt to group everyone together. I know I speak for more than zero.

Then why do you phrase things like "the rest of ours?" Why are you speaking in the plural or collective? You do that a lot. Learn to stand on your own two feet.

The FEDS can't even protect a president from an attempted assassin yet they know everything about a Mafia family? Nah. That's what speaks volumes. Common sense to me. The fact you can't correlate certain things speaks volumes

First, that's just a godawful comparison, even for you. Second, nobody said the feds know everything. But they know far more than the sources you routinely take at face value. You say they can't be trusted, yet you swallow every last bit of internet rumor as long as it's to your liking.

If Sciortino is in fact boss he is recognized by other families. Just like Papalardo in Cleveland is. Falzo in Tampa is. Etc. The fact you still don't get it or use your own logic to stretch into other topics is telling.

I agree there would be a technical, formal recognition as far as it goes. But there isn't much of any evidence anyone left in Kansas City is interacting with anyone else where such recognition would be necessary.

If they've been arrested at all in the last decade they are a priority. Just not the top priority. Indictments don't prove viability or Buffalo never existed. As stated above by Nickle

No, what we've seen - not just over the past decade but over the past 25 years and more - is a relative handful of cases, almost all of which have been the typical ad-hoc crimes committed by individuals with varying degrees of connection to the now extinct mob family in Kansas City. The most significant one was the bookmaking bust in 2010, that included some familiar surnames and one of the few remaining living members (who has since died), but no evidence of it being overseen by, paying tribute, or answerable to a formally structured mob family.

[Newyorkempire]

There's more than 8 in Buffalo and more than 3 in Ontario. Been over this at nauseum.

Yes, we have. And the best any can come up with is a handful of guys who "could be member," a "possible member," or "either a member or associate."

No chart means they aren't a priority, they don't kill, like they use to, kidnap or push fentanyl or blow up federal buildings. That's what it tells me.

Of course no chart couldn't possibly be the result of there being no hierarchy left to chart.

I would know that because they haven't said so.

First, why would you assume there have been multiple ceremonies over that time period? Second, maybe they haven't commented because there has been little to comment on. And the little there has been to comment on, like Violi or the Bonanno ceremony, they HAVE commented on.

I'm not speaking for EVERYONE. I didn't say everyone. The fact you think that shows your broadsweeping attempt to group everyone together. I know I speak for more than zero.

Then why do you phrase things like "the rest of ours?" Why are you speaking in the plural or collective? You do that a lot. Learn to stand on your own two feet.

The FEDS can't even protect a president from an attempted assassin yet they know everything about a Mafia family? Nah. That's what speaks volumes. Common sense to me. The fact you can't correlate certain things speaks volumes

First, that's just a godawful comparison, even for you. Second, nobody said the feds know everything. But they know far more than the sources you routinely take at face value. You say they can't be trusted, yet you swallow every last bit of internet rumor as long as it's to your liking.

If Sciortino is in fact boss he is recognized by other families. Just like Papalardo in Cleveland is. Falzo in Tampa is. Etc. The fact you still don't get it or use your own logic to stretch into other topics is telling.

I agree there would be a technical, formal recognition as far as it goes. But there isn't much of any evidence anyone left in Kansas City is interacting with anyone else where such recognition would be necessary.

If they've been arrested at all in the last decade they are a priority. Just not the top priority. Indictments don't prove viability or Buffalo never existed. As stated above by Nickle

No, what we've seen - not just over the past decade but over the past 25 years and more - is a relative handful of cases, almost all of which have been the typical ad-hoc crimes committed by individuals with varying degrees of connection to the now extinct mob family in Kansas City. The most significant one was the bookmaking bust in 2010, that included some familiar surnames and one of the few remaining living members (who has since died), but no evidence of it being overseen by, paying tribute, or answerable to a formally structured mob family.

I disagree on all of what you wrote. Now what?

[Wiseguy]

I disagree on all of what you wrote. Now what?

You talk as if this is a matter of opinion.

[Newyorkempire]

I disagree on all of what you wrote. Now what?

You talk as if this is a matter of opinion.

Not at all. Very factual. Hard evidence for many years....now.......what? or nah?