In light of the recent Colombo bust, my observations.

[Angelo Santino]

Wiseguy, didn't I make you laugh or even smile just a little bit with that Joe Bonanno reference regarding his involvement with drugs?

[Pogo The Clown]

I wouldn't even say it is an exception. You can add the Windows scam, the garbage routes, the parking lot racket, the push carts, the Vegas skim, Atlantic City, the national and local unions, etc. Almost from the beginning the families have been coordinating to control a specific criminal racket and or assigning people to oversee a specifics criminal operation.


Pogo

[Wiseguy]

Wiseguy, didn't I make you laugh or even smile just a little bit with that Joe Bonanno reference regarding his involvement with drugs?

Sure. I actually thought of responding, "OK, sure Dan," but let it be.

[UTC]

Some great info here @ Villian....

I wanna look at some contemporary examples... to illustrate the criminality aspect over the legitimate....


1. Arrilotta - Made guy. West Side, the " Ivey League".
You know what threw me about this guy? He got involved in the streets, he himself said he didnt give education much interest. He gets in debt 100k to a shylock, then he just....... goes and ask his Dad for the 100k. Then proceeds to say his Dad had a very successful flower business.

Now, I was confused, like..... why didnt you just go into the family's LEGITIMATE BUSINESS? Or at least, try to expand it? If he wasnt into flowers, he coulda went to his DAD, not a LOANSHARK, for the 100k and started a legit business. No, he goes to the streets. And not a Union racket, or gambling either. No, he goes and sell the Mexican brick weed.

2. Leandro Greco - Scion of a mafia dynasty in Sicily.... but the son of a law abiding citizen. His father didnt get involved in crime, and instead became I think, a movie director.

Leandro however, takes after his Grandfather, Michele and becomes the latest in the line of Greco clan bosses.
I doubt the clan threw its resources and full support behind the elder Grecos film endeavors. Hes probably looked at as a " civilian". Leandro could have run for public office, anything. He became a mafiosi.

Whom do we think holds the greater respect? The citizen? Or the Boss?


3. Paolo Bontade - again, son of a mafia Scion. Could run for Mayor probably, or started ANYTHING legit, but his name pops up in criminal investigations.


4. Leonardo Rizzuto - Scion of a powerful mafiosi. An actual lawyer, but just couldnt stay legitimate. Hell, same with the construction based murdered son, Nick jr.

5. The Campos thing - One of the reasons that indictment is silly to me is the inveterate "Hoodlumness"
of it. They couldnt just run a construction company, they had to shit where they ate.

What they did, is what I would expect if you put the typical gang leader in that position. Instead of trying to leverage the next 80 million dollar deal, you worried about floor tiles and a new bathroom.

Even that Hootie guy. Said he got a union job at like 18, in the PJs, I think. Decent money. I'm like, so why you still selling drugs?

There are also some common personality traits found in criminals that may help to explain these seemingly unexpected developments. Anti-social mindset, impulse control, narcissism, attention deficit, power centric thinking, etc. It's not all social conditioning. Greco's situation reminds me of Amongst Friends.

[PolackTony]

Some great info here @ Villian....

I wanna look at some contemporary examples... to illustrate the criminality aspect over the legitimate....


1. Arrilotta - Made guy. West Side, the " Ivey League".
You know what threw me about this guy? He got involved in the streets, he himself said he didnt give education much interest. He gets in debt 100k to a shylock, then he just....... goes and ask his Dad for the 100k. Then proceeds to say his Dad had a very successful flower business.

Now, I was confused, like..... why didnt you just go into the family's LEGITIMATE BUSINESS? Or at least, try to expand it? If he wasnt into flowers, he coulda went to his DAD, not a LOANSHARK, for the 100k and started a legit business. No, he goes to the streets. And not a Union racket, or gambling either. No, he goes and sell the Mexican brick weed.

2. Leandro Greco - Scion of a mafia dynasty in Sicily.... but the son of a law abiding citizen. His father didnt get involved in crime, and instead became I think, a movie director.

Leandro however, takes after his Grandfather, Michele and becomes the latest in the line of Greco clan bosses.
I doubt the clan threw its resources and full support behind the elder Grecos film endeavors. Hes probably looked at as a " civilian". Leandro could have run for public office, anything. He became a mafiosi.

Whom do we think holds the greater respect? The citizen? Or the Boss?


3. Paolo Bontade - again, son of a mafia Scion. Could run for Mayor probably, or started ANYTHING legit, but his name pops up in criminal investigations.


4. Leonardo Rizzuto - Scion of a powerful mafiosi. An actual lawyer, but just couldnt stay legitimate. Hell, same with the construction based murdered son, Nick jr.

5. The Campos thing - One of the reasons that indictment is silly to me is the inveterate "Hoodlumness"
of it. They couldnt just run a construction company, they had to shit where they ate.

What they did, is what I would expect if you put the typical gang leader in that position. Instead of trying to leverage the next 80 million dollar deal, you worried about floor tiles and a new bathroom.

Even that Hootie guy. Said he got a union job at like 18, in the PJs, I think. Decent money. I'm like, so why you still selling drugs?

There are also some common personality traits found in criminals that may help to explain these seemingly unexpected developments. Anti-social mindset, impulse control, narcissism, attention deficit, power centric thinking, etc. It's not all social conditioning. Greco's situation reminds me of Amongst Friends.

Bingo.

[B.]

Vast majority of members are Republicans, so are their associates, friends, families, etc. Many were open Trump supporters.

Even the Sicilian mafia was/is traditionally conservative.

What are we basing that on? We've all seen the news articles about Rosotti and Staluppi donating to Bush back in the day. And the online gossip about some Philly guys liking Trump. But those are the only ones I can think of off hand. Traditionally at least, the connection was overwhelmingly with the Democratic political machine. Due, in no small part, to the unions. I'm not saying there hasn't been any change over the years. And like Capeci has said, most of them have a certain amount of patriotism, ironically enough. And are conservative in many ways, though I think that's due more to the Italian heritage and Catholicism than anything related to the Republican Party.

Cruise through their social media accounts and those of their family/friends. Look at their longstanding history going back to Sicily. Most of the guys who have podcasts lean right if they're not full-blown Republicans.

Some early Sicilian mafiosi supported the Fascist Party before Mussolini started targeting them. The mafia was involved in all kinds of anti-socialist activity in Sicily, sometimes violently.

It's a fundamentally conservative organization and that is usually (but not always) reflected in who they support. Their self-interest is of course #1 and transcends politics if they feel any party/politician/group isn't serving them properly.

I consider the mafia extremely socially conservative and economically libertarian in theory, with their economics being obviously corrupt and self-serving which libertarian policies are naturally subject to (making them more attractive as a "philosophy" than an actual "policy").

Just to add to this, on Frank Fiordilino's most recent MBA episode he says in his experience the mafia is heavily right wing and if you asked "600 wiseguys" they would have all voted for Trump.

Tom seemed confused because he said the Republican party is the "law and order" party, but I think there's confusion from outsiders over this aspect. Harry Riccobene and Nino Calderone both said the mafia supported the Fascist Party's initial crackdown on common criminals and really only became upset when Mussolini and Mori went after the mafia. I would bet the current New York Families have no problem with local LE going after other ethnic gangs and unaffiliated criminals, too.

I think the mafia's attitude on "law and order" is more self-serving than it is absolute. When Nick Piccolo had his business broken into in Philly he called the police to investigate because it was done by outsiders and he kept his captain position. Angelo Bruno had no issue with it.

You have exceptions with politics like Cascio Ferro being involved with anarchists and Bernardo Verro being a socialist, but Verro was apparently inducted because Corleone thought they could use his influence over workers and later killed him. The mafia leans right even in Sicilian mafia history. It makes sense too because hardline socialism is completely at odds with self-governance and the free market, which the mafia corrupts but requires to operate. The mafia is by its nature anti-federal which puts it at odds with leftism. Obviously the hardline social conservativism of the mafia doesn't work with leftism either.

There was a member source, I think one of the San Jose CIs, who said the mafia can exist anywhere except Communist countries.

The Sopranos' portrayal of these guys wasn't perfect, but they nailed the political opinions of Tony and his crew.

[B.]

I thought Sammy Gravano was flirting with Dem/left sympathy when he first showed up on YouTube but that last Valuetainment interview he went off against the Democrats/left.

Of course I don't think Sammy actually believes in anything except Sammy Gravano and his politics are going to change with the wind depending on what he thinks will get "views".

[Pogo The Clown]

Tom seemed confused because he said the Republican party is the "law and order" party, but I think there's confusion from outsiders over this aspect. Harry Riccobene and Nino Calderone both said the mafia supported the Fascist Party's initial crackdown on common criminals and really only became upset when Mussolini and Mori went after the mafia. I would bet the current New York Families have no problem with local LE going after other ethnic gangs and unaffiliated criminals, too.

I think the mafia's attitude on "law and order" is more self-serving than it is absolute. When Nick Piccolo had his business broken into in Philly he called the police to investigate because it was done by outsiders and he kept his captain position. Angelo Bruno had no issue with it.

"You can't have organized crime without law and order." - Don Carmine Falcone


Pogo

[B.]

Haha, not a bad quote.

-

Some of this goes back to a conversation Antiliar, CC, and I had a few months ago about the Stuppagghiari in Monreale. Some have said it was a war between a sort of respectable "anti-mafia" mafia group that included police officers against a younger criminal mafia, which would make the Stuppagghiari not an actual mafia group if they had cops... but I wonder if that is true.

I'd argue the early Sicilian mafia could have inducted local police like they did mayors, judges, priests, etc. On the other hand the mafia would have never inducted Carabinieri or federal police. The Monreale Family later inducted Judge Balsamo who presided over mafia trials and made comments against the mafia but Dr. Allegra said he was actually a Cosa Nostra member too. Some made members in political office made similar anti-mafia statements publicly while secretly assisting their "fratelli". Judge Balsamo isn't that far off from the cops who joined the Stuppagghiari earlier on.

There was that police sergeant in NJ Peter Policastro who Valachi ID'd as a Bonanno member. He was def a corrupt cop very close to Carmine Galante, Joe Zicarelli, etc. but I think he later testified in some capacity. He's listed in the FBN "Mafia" book.

There was also a Lombardino in Newark related to the mafia Lombardinos who one of the San Jose informants said was a police officer that carried out a mafia murder early on. Doesn't mean he was a member or anything, could have been like Lou Eppolito in that he was a relative of members who did hits and gave intel. In early Sicily the level of municipal control would allow a cop to be fully under the mafia though so who knows what the history is.

[UTC]

Vast majority of members are Republicans, so are their associates, friends, families, etc. Many were open Trump supporters.

Even the Sicilian mafia was/is traditionally conservative.

What are we basing that on? We've all seen the news articles about Rosotti and Staluppi donating to Bush back in the day. And the online gossip about some Philly guys liking Trump. But those are the only ones I can think of off hand. Traditionally at least, the connection was overwhelmingly with the Democratic political machine. Due, in no small part, to the unions. I'm not saying there hasn't been any change over the years. And like Capeci has said, most of them have a certain amount of patriotism, ironically enough. And are conservative in many ways, though I think that's due more to the Italian heritage and Catholicism than anything related to the Republican Party.

Cruise through their social media accounts and those of their family/friends. Look at their longstanding history going back to Sicily. Most of the guys who have podcasts lean right if they're not full-blown Republicans.

Some early Sicilian mafiosi supported the Fascist Party before Mussolini started targeting them. The mafia was involved in all kinds of anti-socialist activity in Sicily, sometimes violently.

It's a fundamentally conservative organization and that is usually (but not always) reflected in who they support. Their self-interest is of course #1 and transcends politics if they feel any party/politician/group isn't serving them properly.

I consider the mafia extremely socially conservative and economically libertarian in theory, with their economics being obviously corrupt and self-serving which libertarian policies are naturally subject to (making them more attractive as a "philosophy" than an actual "policy").

Just to add to this, on Frank Fiordilino's most recent MBA episode he says in his experience the mafia is heavily right wing and if you asked "600 wiseguys" they would have all voted for Trump.

Tom seemed confused because he said the Republican party is the "law and order" party, but I think there's confusion from outsiders over this aspect. Harry Riccobene and Nino Calderone both said the mafia supported the Fascist Party's initial crackdown on common criminals and really only became upset when Mussolini and Mori went after the mafia. I would bet the current New York Families have no problem with local LE going after other ethnic gangs and unaffiliated criminals, too.

I think the mafia's attitude on "law and order" is more self-serving than it is absolute. When Nick Piccolo had his business broken into in Philly he called the police to investigate because it was done by outsiders and he kept his captain position. Angelo Bruno had no issue with it.

You have exceptions with politics like Cascio Ferro being involved with anarchists and Bernardo Verro being a socialist, but Verro was apparently inducted because Corleone thought they could use his influence over workers and later killed him. The mafia leans right even in Sicilian mafia history. It makes sense too because hardline socialism is completely at odds with self-governance and the free market, which the mafia corrupts but requires to operate. The mafia is by its nature anti-federal which puts it at odds with leftism. Obviously the hardline social conservativism of the mafia doesn't work with leftism either.

There was a member source, I think one of the San Jose CIs, who said the mafia can exist anywhere except Communist countries.

The Sopranos' portrayal of these guys wasn't perfect, but they nailed the political opinions of Tony and his crew.

As has been said, once you're made "it's all legal".

[Cheech]

Whats up UTC. Hope all is well

[likethewatch]

Amen. The Mafia is a culture, not a corporation. As for the ones who are seemingly devoted to a legitimate business, that's just as organic a part of it. Having friends who are willing to commit crimes for your benefit gives you a leg up in any industry where your competition is restricted to legal or nonviolent activities.

[Raghead_Guido]

The bit about prospective initiatives being led to believe they were about to plan a murder is reminiscent of Tommy Ricciardi, who was told by his Captain "Tumac" Accetturo that they had to go yo New York on "a piece of work", only to find the boss of his family staring right back at him.

[DKellerman]

I see alot of talk about this being the end of the Colombos. It would be if this were purely a criminal organization. I know that sounds insane, the mafia revolves around crime from an outside perspective. Yes and no.

Let's compare any Mafia Family to another group- the cartels or even a black drug gang. With the latter they are joined together purely for one unified criminal endeavor- drugs. To run a drug gang you need leadership, lieutenants, enforcers, crew leaders, sellers, runners, lookouts all the way down the line, because the business is drug distribution. Each person has a specific job to play. A mafia family doesn't work that way. It's not primarily focused on anything, there's never been a drug Family, a casino Family, a Union family and so forth. It is not a criminal organization so much as it is an organization of people who resort to crime. In a crew person A could be involved in drugs, person B could be involved in Unions, person C dould run restaurants and have no criminal acumen but would kill a competitor if they had to. They don't have specific roles for hitmen or moneymen and those that do, like Roy DeMeo act informally. He was, in the end, a formal soldier. Not official Gambino Family Hitsquad leader.

There is no capo who has ever called in a soldier and scolded him for not meeting his criminal quota. There are no crews that are designated to specialize in a certain racket that requires a leader and underlings. A Mafia family is more like this forum than it is a criminal organization, I'll explain. I'm a mod, my name is in green, on the pecking order I'm higher than the names in blue. I hold administrative duties with the power to ban people and if I give a decree it comes with weight. But I don't control what the names in blue do, what they post or what they focus on (outside from a few ground rules- not attacking others, no BS in the threads, no overt racism etc). I'm not about to start demanding that the posters here focus on Myer Lanksey. What you guys post about is your decision as long as you abide by the rules of the board. That's the Mafia. It's members commit crime but a capo is a representative of the members and their actions, not their crimes. They don't direct criminal activity unless a hit order comes down (the boss says a guy needs to be hit and they'd like this crew to handle it), they act as representatives of the members who commit criminal activity. And if a capo goes to prison and there's a vacancy, it doesn't disrupt anything. Solders are not in need of a leader to tell him how to coduct themselves. If a capo involved in the union thing goes down, the union activity is disrupted but there's alot more going on than unions and maybe a bookmaker with leadership skills fills the slot, the crew in question is likely diversified with each member acting as their own free agent doing legal, illegal whatever things. Mikey A becomes capo, he has the represent Mikey B, C, D, E and if Mikey B gets into a dispute with another group, he has to represent him. If Mikey E is a lunatic who is sporadic, Mikey A has to offer guidance as capo that yes, Mikey E is unreliable and not worth having around. Notice that specific crimes are not part of the discussion. That's what being amico nos comes with. You gain representation in this subculture we all follow that we know and regard as Mafia/La Cosa Nostra.

I feel this is lost, even to the most strident mafia researcher who can recite crimes and dates. It's a society of members who are willing to resort to crime more than it is a criminal society. Members don't wake up everyday thinking how to commit crimes purely for the sake of doing so, they wake up and go about their business and are willing to resort to illegal means if it will further benefit their economic interests. They don't consider themselves criminals because crime isn't their primary intention, it's a means to an end in what they are vested in. Hence why the term "soldier" is misleading because they aren't grunts awaiting command, they just don't hold any formal rank within the society.

Rather than regard a boss as a gang leader it's better to use the term representative because he represents those under him. He doesn't direct their criminal activities. He can say "let's try and focus on AC" or "no drug dealing allowed" but he's not pulling aside members and saying you do this, you do that. The mafia is an organic organization with a strong culture linked to Italian culture- social clubs, meeting compaesan, networking is all part of the noncriminal aspect. When DiLeonardo traveled to LA to meet with Milano, he was invited to meet with Frank Valenti in AZ. The meeting wasn't criminal, they weren't meeting to discuss how to do a specific crime, they were meeting as members of the society with a shared heritage- DiLeonardo is Bisacquinese and Valenti was Grottesi. They were both part of a society that is willing to resort to crime but with crime was not nor ever was the primary intention. Is what I am trying to articulate make sense?

Imagine if you had a relative who was part of a business, that business had a prerequisite which requires workers had to kill if the business warranted it. Imagine explaining that to someone, "My uncle is part of XYZed and he had to agree to kill someone if they asked but he hasn't had to." Regardless, you'd look at the relative differently... If I'm a member and I run a restaurant on Roebling and an outsider looks to open one as well and we're both competitors, doesn't it up my advantage that I'm part of the may-fia? Wouldn't it make my competitor kinda trend lightly? I'm not about to send people to kill him (most likely) but my reputation would likely make an average Joe think twice. That's the power of the mafia as reflected by its own members. It gives them an economical heads up. They aren't gangbangers looking to control a territory. That's not mafia.

Rant over. The Colombos will be fine, want to take out the Colombos arrest all of them with crimes that stick and even then...

Well said! I love stuff like the sopranos, but I really wish there was a movie/ tv/ whatever that treated this Thing as accurate. Its a subculture above all else

[7digits]

Despite the federal onslaught and internal wars the Colombo leadership still makes millions a year loaning out six figure loan shark loans, there control of various labor unions and there control and influence over the various feasts in New York. All you have to do is look at the recent indictments, not really sure where this narrative of there in disarray or on there last legs other than from idiots like Gene Borello who isn’t and now and never was not a made member of the mob much less a member of the Colombo’s