Philly mob and Chicago Outfit are on the abyss

[Pogo The Clown]

What do we mean when we say "active" because that's an outsider interpretation.

Not really. Member informants have referred to inactive members as retired. A different term but they are talking about the same thing. So these guys obviously see a distinction between an active and an inactive/retired member.


Pogo

That's not surprising because they are being debriefed by the FBI who are investigating criminal activity, not society standards and protocol. When they answer questions related to FBI debriefings it is generally criminally related in nature, the FBI isn't interested in a member whose last arrest was in 1980 and spends his days at a bar. There's no criminal quota and said someone is still networking and in good standing, he's still a member. He probably won't be asked to do any murders and the mafia doesn't demand their soldiers go out and commit crime. To us and the FBI, this member would be "retired" or "inactive" but to the members, he's not.

They have used the term independent of FBI debriefings. For example in Caramandi’s book he recalls Scarfo telling him his (Scarfo’s) long range plan was to retire to Florida. So it is a term and distinction that they use and recognize.


Pogo

[InCamelot]

Just saw this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0RTBhyTNpA

Pennisi says even when he was on the street Lucchese (former?) UB Patty Red was imprisoned with Solly D, Jimmy I and Mike Sarno -- and he was apparently close to Jimmy I.

"In my time, they were going out to Chicago"

Pennisi even goes on to say Patty Red will be indicted in NY and Chicago.

[UTC]

Binder is a great Outfit historian. His expertise is the Capone era. However, there are people on this board who posses much better Knowledge of everything 1970s-today.

As far as indictments, there are more than you think. I wouldn’t expect anyone to take a deep dive into the Chicago outfit thread, but there were three separate large scale gambling busts in 2020 alone that were highly likely to be outfit connected involving hundreds of millions of dollars. That’s just one example. But yes, it is certainly in decline, along with every other LCN family in the U.S.

He had a great publication years ago--The Prohibition Times. Sort of like a magazine. I have all of them.

[chin_gigante]

Current Philadelphia members (positions per 2015)

Currently at liberty and observed at least socially interacting with the family over the last ten years:

1.Joseph Merlino (boss)
2.Michael Lancellotti (acting boss)
3.Joseph Ligambi (consigliere)
4.Martin Angelina (captain)
5.George Borgesi (captain)
6.John Ciancaglini (captain)
7.Joseph Licata (captain)
8.Anthony Accardo (Borgesi regime)
9.Anthony Borgesi (Borgesi regime)
10.Martin Curro
11.Eric Esposito
12.Louis Fazzini (Licata regime)
13.Vincent Filipelli
14.Joseph Grande
15.Francis Iannarella
16.Gaeton Lucibello
17.Nicholas Olivieri (Licata regime)
18.David Salvo (Borgesi regime)
19.Shawn Vetere
(Plus whoever has been inducted since 2015)

Released from prison in the past few years:

1.Damion Canalichio
2.Joseph Massimino
3.Anthony Staino

Somewhat reliably identified as inactive:

1.Joseph Ciancaglini Jr
2.Joseph Stanfa
3.Paul Tanso
4.Luigi Tripodi

Questionable:

1.Nicholas Milano (listed as inactive 2009, later was meeting with DeCavalcante members)
2.Robert Paleo (Boston)
3.David Pepicelli (Boston)
4.Paul Pepicelli (Boston)
5.Anthony Pungitore Jr (listed as active 2009)
6.Joseph Pungitore (tried to get Joey Grande killed in 2010, then said to be on his own)
7.Philip Narducci (rumoured to be on a panel in the early 2010s, then said to be on his own)
8.Salvatore Scafidi

Presently incarcerated:

1.Steven Mazzone (underboss)
2.Domenic Grande (captain)
3.Giuseppe Gallara
4.Salvatore Mazzone
5.Frank Martines
6.Anthony Nicodemo
7.Salvatore Piccolo
8.Joseph Servidio
9.John Stanfa

Cooperating witnesses:

1.Biagio Adornetto
2.Sergio Battaglia
3.Peter Caprio
4.Nicholas Caramandi
5.Salvatore Grande
6.Philip Leonetti
7.Robert Luisi
8.Eugene Milano
9.Anthony Persiano
10.Gaetano Scafidi
11.John Veasey

Possible members:

1.Nicholas Cimino
2.Frank DePasquale
3.Joseph DeSimone
4.Vincent Iannece
5.Albert Lancellotti
6.Philip Ligambi
7.Vito Malgeri
(Others)

===

25-30 active members seems plausible.

[Angelo Santino]

What do we mean when we say "active" because that's an outsider interpretation.

Not really. Member informants have referred to inactive members as retired. A different term but they are talking about the same thing. So these guys obviously see a distinction between an active and an inactive/retired member.


Pogo

That's not surprising because they are being debriefed by the FBI who are investigating criminal activity, not society standards and protocol. When they answer questions related to FBI debriefings it is generally criminally related in nature, the FBI isn't interested in a member whose last arrest was in 1980 and spends his days at a bar. There's no criminal quota and said someone is still networking and in good standing, he's still a member. He probably won't be asked to do any murders and the mafia doesn't demand their soldiers go out and commit crime. To us and the FBI, this member would be "retired" or "inactive" but to the members, he's not.

They have used the term independent of FBI debriefings. For example in Caramandi’s book he recalls Scarfo telling him his (Scarfo’s) long range plan was to retire to Florida. So it is a term and distinction that they use and recognize.


Pogo

They did, in an operational sense. I can quote Chinky Fabi-something who volunteered for a hit, they said you're retired and he responded, you're never retired. Scarfo saying retired was referring to his vacating his position as boss. Let's envision some alternative history where Don Nicky stayed on the streets until the year 2000 where he decided it was time to "retire." He vacates his position as boss and moves to FL. What then? Is he no longer a member? He's not active in the operational sense, but still a member. If there was a family meeting and he spoke up, no one would counter with "Nicky, you're retired!" or "inactive." The secret society aspect is still a factor.

[Pogo The Clown]

Yes an inactive member is still a member. That is not in dispute. But when assessing the strength of a family as we are doing one must make a distinction between an active member and an inactive/retired member.


Pogo

[Ivan]

Yes an inactive member is still a member. That is not in dispute. But when assessing the strength of a family as we are doing one must make a distinction between an active member and an inactive/retired member.

Yeah look at the Cleveland family in the late 70s. They had about a dozen retired members (a little more than the active membership, I think) who were basically irrelevant to everything that was going on among the active members and associates, at least as far as we know.

https://image.ibb.co/jEWZ1y/CL1980_Chart_A.gif

[PolackTony]

Just saw this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0RTBhyTNpA

Pennisi says even when he was on the street Lucchese (former?) UB Patty Red was imprisoned with Solly D, Jimmy I and Mike Sarno -- and he was apparently close to Jimmy I.

"In my time, they were going out to Chicago"

Pennisi even goes on to say Patty Red will be indicted in NY and Chicago.

I have it directly from an associate of an NYC Family that all of the Families in New York have had close and ongoing ties to Chicago and that multiple NYC guys were working with Chicago guys at least up until the early 2000s. This person confirmed specifically that the Luccheses had close ties to the Cicero crew, and his account was independent of Scott B’s info on Patty Red and Pennisi’s confirmation of it. Today they all network with each other in places like AZ also.

[Cheech]

Philly was working with Chicago as well. I think it came out in the Nicodemo wiretaps

[PolackTony]

Philly was working with Chicago as well. I think it came out in the Nicodemo wiretaps

Do you have any further details on this?

As an aside, when I told the NYC associate who I referred to above that there are people today who would be very surprised to hear that Chicago had ongoing ties to the NYC Families, he acted like it was the stupidest thing to say, and replied that “those connections are what it is” (as in, that is what LCN is about), that they are all “the same thing” and still are in the “same circle”. Only a subset of guys in any Family will have ties to a Family in another city of course, so it’s not like all these guys are in contact with each other by any means, just that they have conduits that they can make use of if need be.

[Cheech]

Philly was working with Chicago as well. I think it came out in the Nicodemo wiretaps

Do you have any further details on this?

https://youtu.be/QrtTggk4_bw

Around one min mark.
He says it could be Joe Bilochi or the guy from chicago”

It came out later philly was meeting with joe bilotti. Its not a stretch to think they were working w a chicago guy or guys. He says “the guy” from chicago. Seemingly referring to someone in particular.

[johnny_scootch]

1.Joseph Merlino (boss)
2.Michael Lancellotti (acting boss)
3.Joseph Ligambi (consigliere)
4.Martin Angelina (captain)
5.George Borgesi (captain)
6.John Ciancaglini (captain)
7.Joseph Licata (captain)
8.Anthony Accardo (Borgesi regime)
9.Anthony Borgesi (Borgesi regime)
10.Martin Curro
11.Eric Esposito
12.Louis Fazzini (Licata regime)
13.Vincent Filipelli
14.Joseph Grande
15.Francis Iannarella
16.Gaeton Lucibello
17.Nicholas Olivieri (Licata regime)
18.David Salvo (Borgesi regime)
19.Shawn Vetere
20.Damion Canalichio
21.Joseph Massimino
22.Anthony Staino

Presently incarcerated:

23.Steven Mazzone (underboss)
24.Domenic Grande (captain)
25.Salvatore Mazzone
26.Anthony Nicodemo
27.Salvatore Piccolo
28.Joseph Servidio

(Plus whoever has been inducted since 2015)

Possible members:

1.Nicholas Cimino
2.Frank DePasquale
3.Joseph DeSimone
4.Vincent Iannece
5.Albert Lancellotti
6.Philip Ligambi
7.Vito Malgeri

25-30 active members seems plausible.

Seems like 30+ active members is guaranteed.
Great list btw

[aray22]

1.Joseph Merlino (boss)
2.Michael Lancellotti (acting boss)
3.Joseph Ligambi (consigliere)
4.Martin Angelina (captain)
5.George Borgesi (captain)
6.John Ciancaglini (captain)
7.Joseph Licata (captain)
8.Anthony Accardo (Borgesi regime)
9.Anthony Borgesi (Borgesi regime)
10.Martin Curro
11.Eric Esposito
12.Louis Fazzini (Licata regime)
13.Vincent Filipelli
14.Joseph Grande
15.Francis Iannarella
16.Gaeton Lucibello
17.Nicholas Olivieri (Licata regime)
18.David Salvo (Borgesi regime)
19.Shawn Vetere
20.Damion Canalichio
21.Joseph Massimino
22.Anthony Staino

Presently incarcerated:

23.Steven Mazzone (underboss)
24.Domenic Grande (captain)
25.Salvatore Mazzone
26.Anthony Nicodemo
27.Salvatore Piccolo
28.Joseph Servidio

(Plus whoever has been inducted since 2015)

Possible members:

1.Nicholas Cimino
2.Frank DePasquale
3.Joseph DeSimone
4.Vincent Iannece
5.Albert Lancellotti
6.Philip Ligambi
7.Vito Malgeri

25-30 active members seems plausible.

Seems like 30+ active members is guaranteed.
Great list btw

You have Narducci as inactive?

[PolackTony]

Philly was working with Chicago as well. I think it came out in the Nicodemo wiretaps

Do you have any further details on this?

https://youtu.be/QrtTggk4_bw

Around one min mark.
He says it could be Joe Bilochi or the guy from chicago”

It came out later philly was meeting with joe bilotti. Its not a stretch to think they were working w a chicago guy or guys. He says “the guy” from chicago. Seemingly referring to someone in particular.

Ok, yes, could be that he was referring to some guy with Chicago that they knew, or he could’ve meant “the guy from Chicago” as in “the boss of Chicago”, as he was telling his guy “John Gotti’s son could come up to ya, Joe Bilotti, it could be the guy from Chicago […] anyone approaches you [send them directly to see me]”. Could be that he was just trying to convey “I don’t care how much of a big deal a guy is, if anyone tries to come up to you send them to me”. Or, as you say, since it came out that Philly had links to Joe Bilotti, he may have had a specific Chicago guy with some ties to Philly in mind.

[B.]

Philly has 25 members in Boston alone.