Philly mob and Chicago Outfit are on the abyss

[Snakes]

Well, one of the assistant U.S. attorneys in the Paolian case tied that case to the Delgiudice case. Paolian has longstanding Outfit ties and was on Sarno's visitor list and a regular contributor to his commissary account. I don't think those things are coincidental

I said that the Paolian case has clear Outfit involvement. And I'm aware the prosecutor said that case was "tied to" the Delguidice case, though I'm not sure what those ties are. But it goes to my point that we see this "tied to," "connections to," etc. phenomenon regarding Chicago more than anyone else. And frankly, it's in this haze, the area of the unknown, or at least not so clear, where outdated and exaggerated views of the modern-day Chicago Outfit thrive the most.

I agree with you on the Coli, case, though. May be nepotism, slight chance that this is something still connected to and Outfit approved -- but not likely.

However, I think the AUSA tying the two gambling cases together is more than what you normally get from Outfit-related cases, so it needs to be taken at face value.

[aray22]

Philly has the youngest administration of any family. They'll be around much longer than Chicago.

[furiofromnaples]

From 2023 membership post

Philadelphia (some positions may be outdated):

Administration:

Boss: Joseph Merlino, 60
Acting: Michael Lancellotti

Underboss: Steven Mazzone, 59 (IP/2027)

Consigliere: Joseph Ligambi, 83

Captains:

1. Martin Angelina, 60
2. George Borgesi, 59
3. John Ciancaglini, 67
4. Domenic Grande, 43 (IP/2028)
5. Joseph Licata, 81

Soldiers:

1. Anthony Accardo, 62
2. Anthony Borgesi
3. Damion Canalichio, 53
4. Joseph Ciancaglini Jr (shelved)
5. Joseph Ciancaglini Sr, 88
6. Martin Curro
7. Eric Esposito, 52
8. Louis Fazzini, 56
9. Vincent Filipelli, 70
10. Giuseppe Gallara, 56 (IP/LIFE)
11. Joseph Grande, 62
12. Francis Iannarella Jr, 75
13. Gaeton Lucibello, 69
14. Frank Martines, 69 (IP/LIFE)
15. Joseph Massimino, 72 (halfway house)
16. Salvatore Mazzone, 58 (IP/2024)
17. Nicholas Milano, 62 (inactive)
18. Philip Narducci, 60
19. Anthony Nicodemo, 51 (IP)
20. Nicholas Olivieri, 76
21. Robert Paleo
22. David Pepicelli
23. Paul Pepicelli
24. Salvatore Piccolo, 71 (IP/2027)
25. Anthony Pungitore Jr, 68
26. Joseph Pungitore, 66
27. David Salvo
28. Salvatore Scafidi, 61
29. Joseph Servidio, 63 (IP/2033)
30. Anthony Staino, 65
31. John Stanfa, 82 (IP/LIFE)
32. Joseph Stanfa, 52/53 (shelved)
33. Paul Tanso, 58 (inactive)
34. Luigi Tripodi, 84 (inactive)
35. Shawn Vetere, 55

Possible/ suspected members:

1. Nicholas Cimino, 63/64
2. Louis DeAngelo
3. Frank DePasquale
4. Joseph DeSimone, 70
5. Albert Lancellotti
6. Philip Ligambi, 79
7. Vito Malgeri
Others

Cooperating witnesses:

1. Biagio Adornetto
2. Sergio Battaglia, 56
3. Peter Caprio, 93
4. Nicholas Caramandi, 87
5. Salvatore Grande, 69
6. Philip Leonetti, 69
7. Robert Luisi, 61
8. Eugene Milano, 63
9. Anthony Persiano
10. Gaetano Scafidi, 58
11. John Veasey, 56

==========

Total confirmed membership: 44 (55 including CWs)
Probable total membership: abt 50-60 (+ 11 CWs)

[Patrickgold]

Well, one of the assistant U.S. attorneys in the Paolian case tied that case to the Delgiudice case. Paolian has longstanding Outfit ties and was on Sarno's visitor list and a regular contributor to his commissary account. I don't think those things are coincidental

I said that the Paolian case has clear Outfit involvement. And I'm aware the prosecutor said that case was "tied to" the Delguidice case, though I'm not sure what those ties are. But it goes to my point that we see this "tied to," "connections to," etc. phenomenon regarding Chicago more than anyone else. And frankly, it's in this haze, the area of the unknown, or at least not so clear, where outdated and exaggerated views of the modern-day Chicago Outfit thrive the most.

I agree with you on the Coli, case, though. May be nepotism, slight chance that this is something still connected to and Outfit approved -- but not likely.

However, I think the AUSA tying the two gambling cases together is more than what you normally get from Outfit-related cases, so it needs to be taken at face value.

I’m pretty sure if DiFronzo would have called up Coli or used a messenger to ask for something, Coli would have done exactly what he said.

[SonnyBlackstein]

I think 25 members is bullshit for Philly.
They just had a recent induction (caught on tape).
They have 5 Captains.
Merlino at the Christmas party with the Westside.
They are interested in new blood (Tuccio)
They have had a bunch of new indictments.

Chicago is 25 guys and all appearances theyve effectively wound up shop? (correct if Im wrong).

Philly arent BEHAVING like a close to gone family. New inductions, Mazzone talking about getting AC back, new associates, new indictments.

Id put total membership at twice Scott Bernsteins number, much closer to ours, even lean on the more active, larger side.

[funkster]

Well, one of the assistant U.S. attorneys in the Paolian case tied that case to the Delgiudice case. Paolian has longstanding Outfit ties and was on Sarno's visitor list and a regular contributor to his commissary account. I don't think those things are coincidental

I said that the Paolian case has clear Outfit involvement. And I'm aware the prosecutor said that case was "tied to" the Delguidice case, though I'm not sure what those ties are. But it goes to my point that we see this "tied to," "connections to," etc. phenomenon regarding Chicago more than anyone else. And frankly, it's in this haze, the area of the unknown, or at least not so clear, where outdated and exaggerated views of the modern-day Chicago Outfit thrive the most.

I agree with you on the Coli, case, though. May be nepotism, slight chance that this is something still connected to and Outfit approved -- but not likely.

However, I think the AUSA tying the two gambling cases together is more than what you normally get from Outfit-related cases, so it needs to be taken at face value.

I’m pretty sure if DiFronzo would have called up Coli or used a messenger to ask for something, Coli would have done exactly what he said.

Agreed, I have a hard time believing these connections simply disappeared. These guys grew up in this world and that doesnt go poof.

[Patrickgold]

Well, one of the assistant U.S. attorneys in the Paolian case tied that case to the Delgiudice case. Paolian has longstanding Outfit ties and was on Sarno's visitor list and a regular contributor to his commissary account. I don't think those things are coincidental

I said that the Paolian case has clear Outfit involvement. And I'm aware the prosecutor said that case was "tied to" the Delguidice case, though I'm not sure what those ties are. But it goes to my point that we see this "tied to," "connections to," etc. phenomenon regarding Chicago more than anyone else. And frankly, it's in this haze, the area of the unknown, or at least not so clear, where outdated and exaggerated views of the modern-day Chicago Outfit thrive the most.

I agree with you on the Coli, case, though. May be nepotism, slight chance that this is something still connected to and Outfit approved -- but not likely.

However, I think the AUSA tying the two gambling cases together is more than what you normally get from Outfit-related cases, so it needs to be taken at face value.

I’m pretty sure if DiFronzo would have called up Coli or used a messenger to ask for something, Coli would have done exactly what he said.

Agreed, I have a hard time believing these connections simply disappeared. These guys grew up in this world and that doesnt go poof.

Those connections definitely never died. They just became more hidden and harder to prove. There is a reason why D and P, which is now owned by Difronzo’s wife never unionized

[Wiseguy]

I think 25 members is bullshit for Philly.

Again, it's around 40 total but not all of them are active.

Chicago is 25 guys and all appearances theyve effectively wound up shop? (correct if Im wrong).

They had 28 members 15 years ago. They're now down to half that.

Id put total membership at twice Scott Bernsteins number, much closer to ours, even lean on the more active, larger side.

Considering Scott (in typical fashion) put Philly at 40-50 made and active on the street, that's quite the claim.

[Pogo The Clown]

I think 25 members is bullshit for Philly.
They just had a recent induction (caught on tape).
They have 5 Captains.
Merlino at the Christmas party with the Westside.
They are interested in new blood (Tuccio)
They have had a bunch of new indictments.

Chicago is 25 guys and all appearances theyve effectively wound up shop? (correct if Im wrong).

Philly arent BEHAVING like a close to gone family. New inductions, Mazzone talking about getting AC back, new associates, new indictments.

Id put total membership at twice Scott Bernsteins number, much closer to ours, even lean on the more active, larger side.

The 20-25 number is for active members. In total Philly has over 40 members. In all likelihood Chicago has less than 20 living members left.


Pogo

[SonnyBlackstein]

So we're on the same page.

I had Scott quoting 25 for Philly. Good to know about Chicago, although we've had no info on a making ceremony in Chi town in 25 years.

Chi could be, if active, around 20 -25. 2-4 making ceremonies over the past 25 years unreported is not out of the realm of possibility.

Philly is likely around 40 active given making, indictments and activity. Would be my likelihood.

S 2 cents

[Pogo The Clown]

So we're on the same page.

I had Scott quoting 25 for Philly.

It was George Anastasia.

Philly is likely around 40 active given making, indictments and activity. Would be my likelihood.

It is over 40 total. Active is half of that. Philly’s active membership has fluctuated from a dozen to 2 dozen since the late 1980s.


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

What do we mean when we say "active" because that's an outsider interpretation. Innarella got out of prison after two decades and was seen with the guys every day, Scott once speculated he was "like a consigliere / elder statesman." Maybe he wasn't, maybe was just one of the guys. But I doubt Innarella was going out committing crimes and if he wasn't, does that make him "inactive?" To us, yes, to them, no. He's a member. To be truly "inactive" one needs to either be on the shelf or a federally protected witness.

[Pogo The Clown]

What do we mean when we say "active" because that's an outsider interpretation.

Not really. Member informants have referred to inactive members as retired. A different term but they are talking about the same thing. So these guys obviously see a distinction between an active and an inactive/retired member.


Pogo

[CornerBoy]

those wasatch mtn range is so pretty. you're lucky to live there.

The Californians found that out and now they're flooding into the state like locusts.

sorry to hear that dude. it really is a different type of living, diff quality of life. ppl don't jump down your throat, no rush, smiling ppl, ppl saying good morning just to be nice etc.

[Angelo Santino]

What do we mean when we say "active" because that's an outsider interpretation.

Not really. Member informants have referred to inactive members as retired. A different term but they are talking about the same thing. So these guys obviously see a distinction between an active and an inactive/retired member.


Pogo

That's not surprising because they are being debriefed by the FBI who are investigating criminal activity, not society standards and protocol. When they answer questions related to FBI debriefings it is generally criminally related in nature, the FBI isn't interested in a member whose last arrest was in 1980 and spends his days at a bar. There's no criminal quota and said someone is still networking and in good standing, he's still a member. He probably won't be asked to do any murders and the mafia doesn't demand their soldiers go out and commit crime. To us and the FBI, this member would be "retired" or "inactive" but to the members, he's not.