B. wrote:Lucchese capo Scarfo Jr.'s attempts to pull disabled former underboss Joe Ciancaglini Jr., plus Joe Grande and Lou Fazzini, into the Lucchese family
This seems like an inconceivable scenario. Those 3 guys would need permission to transfer and there was absolutely no shot of that happening. Nicky Jr just stirring the pot?
I assumed the idea by the Scarfo's would be that Nicky Jr would get released "back" into the Philly family, not the Luccheses absorbing made guys from another family. It seemed like more than stirring the pot considering it led to a major meeting between Ligambi and the Gambinos.
The Scarfo's had the support of Joe Grande at one point before Licata swayed him back to the "new administration", he approached Lou Fazzini through his brother, and had dinner with Joe Chang Jr in South Philly in 2008 about jumping ship to him.
I don't understand why Ligambi didn't just reach out to Merlino so he could get word to Joey Perna since they are friends and deal with the Luchese family directly. The Perna's were much closer to the Family Panel in NY then any Gambino member and certainly more so then Nicky Jr. BY 2007 Ralph Perna was Capo and Nicky was knocked down. What was the Date on the meeting Between Ligambi and Johnny Gambino? was it prior to 2007 or after?
The meeting was May 2010. So by this time Jr. Has been making moves for 2 years or so. With Ligambi goimg to the Gambinos instead of getting in touch with the Lucchese admin shows thay circa 2010 Amuso very well of could of still be a man of influence. If Amuso by than still has clout than he is supportng Nicky Jr. And Ligambi isnt going that route.
Dave213 posted this over on GBB. I guess some guy who does a podcast type of thing. In this one he deals mainly with Philly. Makes for some interesting listening, I guess, but seems to mainly go by the same headlines we all read. Wouldn't be surprised if he's on the forums.
I listen to this guy he's on my fb I asked him how it's 4 factions , and how merlino and ligambi are part of dif factions... He couldn't answer me ! He repeats everything we already know and claims to have sources on the street. His first few shows he did nothing but quote John alite
johnny_scootch wrote:
Bosses can't just take made guys from other families without throwing all the rules out the window.
That's true. When was the last time we saw a member actually transfer from one family to another?
Do we know for a fact that the rules are that a member can never join another family, even if both families approve of the transfer?
No, because Fratianno was a member of both the L.A. family and the Chicago family at different times.. It may have been different on the East Coast, though.
I don't think that was ever a rule as it has happened several times. Although it was much more of a rare occurence with the east coast families and I don't recall it happening among the 5 families after 1931. It did happen with the 5 families and some of the other families though.
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Pogo The Clown wrote:I don't think that was ever a rule as it has happened several times. Although it was much more of a rare occurence with the east coast families and I don't recall it happening among the 5 families after 1931. It did happen with the 5 families and some of the other families though.
Pogo
Nick Bianco, was made in to the Bonanno (Or was it the colomobs) family and was underboss in the New England family.......Soliai
Pogo The Clown wrote:I don't think that was ever a rule as it has happened several times. Although it was much more of a rare occurence with the east coast families and I don't recall it happening among the 5 families after 1931. It did happen with the 5 families and some of the other families though.
Pogo
Nick Bianco, was made in to the Bonanno (Or was it the colomobs) family and was underboss in the New England family.......Soliai
Yep, he was a Colombo. I always forget the exact way it went down, but I believe he was inducted by Patriarca, transferred to the Colombos where he was eventually named captain, only to transfer back to Patriarca where he became a high-ranking member.
Charlie Battaglia transferred from the LA family to the Bonanno Arizona crew as well I believe.
It also sounds like Allie Persico may have been made by Bufalino and transferred immediately back to the Colombos.
Pre-1930s it sounds like transfers were more common as people got settled, tried to find work, went to live with relatives, etc. The methods of introduction was also easier, as there were apparently letters of introduction sent from the bosses and maybe even sets of code words guys could use to introduce themselves. Not clear to me when they stopped using that but Dave Critchley talks about it in his book.
B. wrote:Lucchese capo Scarfo Jr.'s attempts to pull disabled former underboss Joe Ciancaglini Jr., plus Joe Grande and Lou Fazzini, into the Lucchese family
This seems like an inconceivable scenario. Those 3 guys would need permission to transfer and there was absolutely no shot of that happening. Nicky Jr just stirring the pot?
I assumed the idea by the Scarfo's would be that Nicky Jr would get released "back" into the Philly family, not the Luccheses absorbing made guys from another family. It seemed like more than stirring the pot considering it led to a major meeting between Ligambi and the Gambinos.
The Scarfo's had the support of Joe Grande at one point before Licata swayed him back to the "new administration", he approached Lou Fazzini through his brother, and had dinner with Joe Chang Jr in South Philly in 2008 about jumping ship to him.
I don't understand why Ligambi didn't just reach out to Merlino so he could get word to Joey Perna since they are friends and deal with the Luchese family directly. The Perna's were much closer to the Family Panel in NY then any Gambino member and certainly more so then Nicky Jr. BY 2007 Ralph Perna was Capo and Nicky was knocked down. What was the Date on the meeting Between Ligambi and Johnny Gambino? was it prior to 2007 or after?
The meeting was May 2010. So by this time Jr. Has been making moves for 2 years or so. With Ligambi goimg to the Gambinos instead of getting in touch with the Lucchese admin shows thay circa 2010 Amuso very well of could of still be a man of influence. If Amuso by than still has clout than he is supportng Nicky Jr. And Ligambi isnt going that route.
Maybe. BUT. Scarfo Jr was knocked down by the ruling panel in 2007. If Amuso had a lot of influence this never would have happened since Jr was making him millions of dollars personally thru FirstPlus Financial. Having that Capo stripes was the only thing JR had because he was a loan wolf in NJ. The entire North Jersey Faction of the Philly family were pretty much Anti all things Scarfo for a while now so he wasn't getting support there. Perna's clearly were not fund of him per the wire taps.
johnny_scootch wrote:
Bosses can't just take made guys from other families without throwing all the rules out the window.
That's true. When was the last time we saw a member actually transfer from one family to another?
Do we know for a fact that the rules are that a member can never join another family, even if both families approve of the transfer?
Lupara we know for a FACT that members CAN and have switched families with proper approval throughout the history of American Cosa Nostra. What I was getting at is that a Boss can't just deem a member of another family to be his soldier. Doing so would rightfully start a war.
As far as I know the last made member to switch families was Robert Vaccaro who went from the Lucchese family to the Gambino family.
I don't think the plan was to have all those guys Scarfo approach transfer to the Luccheses, but rather once he and his dad had enough support Nicky Jr would transfer back to Philly (where he never was technically released from) and become acting boss with his old man taking back his old spot. At least, that's how I took it.
Chucky wrote:I don't think the plan was to have all those guys Scarfo approach transfer to the Luccheses, but rather once he and his dad had enough support Nicky Jr would transfer back to Philly (where he never was technically released from) and become acting boss with his old man taking back his old spot. At least, that's how I took it.
That's what I thought, but in the Fazzini memo it says that the idea was to recruit them into the Lucchese family.
The bigger picture may have been to have the Scarfos retake AC/Philly (either as a territory of the Lucchese family or to reinstall the Scarfos in the Philly family), but I'm thinking in the short term they may have been brought into the Luccheses for political leverage. Hard to say, it really sounds like such a half-baked, harebrained move.
johnny_scootch wrote:
Bosses can't just take made guys from other families without throwing all the rules out the window.
That's true. When was the last time we saw a member actually transfer from one family to another?
Do we know for a fact that the rules are that a member can never join another family, even if both families approve of the transfer?
Lupara we know for a FACT that members CAN and have switched families with proper approval throughout the history of American Cosa Nostra. What I was getting at is that a Boss can't just deem a member of another family to be his soldier. Doing so would rightfully start a war.
Yeah, I think I was a bit confused by those remarks which is why I needed some clarification. But I understand now and I agree.
