Moderator: Capos
Damn bro, leave me alone.
I agree. But some people are....unforgivable. Thats it. Leave me alone, please. I posted evidences or i was "talking to myself" and you jumped me. Why? No worries, things will be straighten out, ok?
Very nicely said.
I didn't write that the Mafia didn't start as a criminal organization. I wrote that we don't know, that it's a chicken versus egg situation, but we do know that organization took priority. Also that the brotherhood aspect shouldn't be downplayed. They called it Fratellanza and Fratuzzi for a reason. Additionally, the American LCN came out of the Sicilian organization. Until 1931 they were basically the same except for relatively minor difference due to accommodations. For example, in Sicily they had provincial bosses while in America they had a capo di capi. But the other ranks previously existed in Sicily before they were brought to America. The same basic skeletal structure.InCamelot wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 11:56 pm At this point, I still feel that organizational vs operational remains a good way to understand the full picture of the US LCN, as per Tony's earlier post in this thread and B's in the 'Non-Italians' thread. Its the best way to describe a full picture of US LCN. Especially if Antillar's post that LCN did not start as a criminal organization is accurate. Not used to depict any conscious intentions of the US LCN.
Its possible that another part of the misunderstanding in this subject comes from the idea of timing.
One might presume that folks are saying they came up with an Organizational structure first. And then ten minutes later said "let's do an Operational one now. And we'll apply both because we're bored."
But they may be terms that come as a result of changes made as time went by.
After more thinking on the "whats the point of Organizational"....at one point in history perhaps the Organizational structure was very much the Operational structure as well. Maybe. Then things changed, people moved, came into contact with new historical circumstances and these things became two historical facets that can't be excluded when telling the story.
An accurate depiction of LCN might be folks trying to hang onto Organizational while trying to implement Operational to meet their needs of the time.
This is a massive myth that really needs to be debunked too... It really was all Chin, and he did it for political purposes... a quorum of the families had active Sicilian operatives with huge drug ops.... How can it be Commisioned banned, if 3 of the families are involved? Throw in Mannino and the Gambinos in Philly, and the Busico stuff with Buffalo, I would say a majority of the families on the East Coast were in the thick of it.B. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:24 am The Commission was heavily organizational / governmental not a "criminal executive board" where the purpose was to mastermind rackets.
When Giancana complained to Accardo that he had to go to Philly to help settle a leadership dispute, Accardo told him it was his duty on the Commission and he should treat it the same way he would his own jurisdiction. Chicago didn't get any benefit from mediating in Philly but it was the Commission's obligation to help and Chicago was on it.
Like Kiduknow said on our show, the Bonanno War was a purely organizational / political dispute. They never talked about dividing Bonanno rackets or even what to do about them, all of the wiretaps around the country show it was about the org's formal politics. Once the dispute was settled the new leadership could make operational decisions but that wasn't part of the conflict and the Commission dropped everything to handle it. All of Bonanno's offenses were organizational too, he wasn't accused of trying to take anyone's rackets or businesses. He was accused of trying to take over another Family (org), making members when the books were closed (org), promoting his son to consigliere (org), shelving/putting a contract on a senior member without proper cause (org), plotting to have two bosses killed (org), and refusing to meet with the Commission (org).
When the Commission voted to outlaw drug trafficking nationally it was an operational decision but it was designed to protect the organization and limit its operations. The "Concrete Club" intersected with the Commission too but like someone said Gigante didn't believe that should directly involve the Commission. Gigante wanted their interactions to be organizational in nature and what was he? A Neapolitan-American in a Family that sometimes gets called "nontraditional" yet has a reputation for strict secrecy, protocol, discipline, and everything the mafia is supposed to be.
Your thesis is equally valid. Crime cannot be disconnected from the Mafia, let's say we discovered there was another former family in Montana, aside from genealogy we would also go through newspapers looking for any existing evidence of their criminal activity. This subject has room to be evaluated through different lens. Remember the first Predator, he's watching Arnold and Jesse in the forest and he keeps changing his lens to observe/look for different details? That's kinda what this is.Wiseguy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2023 11:38 pm For the record, my viability argument has always rested on both because, while it may be "their organization," I look at it from the outside (I'm an outsider after all) - the way the FBI does, i.e. an ongoing pattern of racketeering (operational) in behalf of a criminal organization (organizational). Both are necessary, not just one or the other.
