Organization & Operation revisited

[InCamelot]

When I first read about this 'vs' perspective (think it was a few years ago), my thought was "I can see the difference but who cares about organizational status if they're operating differently". Its almost like pointing out a detail that was arbitrary. The mob itself seemed to give organizational less weight than operational.

But I guess as time went on and I can see how as a historian you wouldn't want to label someone's organizational status wrong, not because its important to get it 'right' in the moment, but because it could lead to confusion or contradictions several research steps down the road....I think?

[motorfab]

Peace on earth gentlemen. As I'm not especially an expert for this topic, for what it worth your arguments are both credible with good explanations. It's too bad if it slips to a brawl

[TallGuy19]

Some of the basic organizational functions of these roles. Probably forgetting some.

Consiglio / Council / Chair / Board
- Seats belong to made members ranging from admin to soldier.
- Apparently voted in by the membership.
- Conducts underworld trials involving made members.
- Votes on said trials, internal policy, and other matters relevant to the org.
- Can approve transfers (Gentile in San Fran) and holds banquet afterward.
- Likely involved in approving / conducting inductions.
- Presides over boss elections and can remove a boss from power.
- Chairman can consult directly with the Commission about an issue with the boss.
- Discusses and decides on murders.
- Mediates Family disputes.

Boss / Rappresentante
- Must be a made member, can be elected by the entire membership or captains.
- Can be voted out of office by the membership.
- Must be introduced as a boss by a third party who has already been introduced to him as such.
- Represents the Family in high-level politics with other Families.
- Influences all facets of the organization.
- Either sits on the Commission or answers to an avugad on the Commission.
- Carries out many of the duties of the consiglio, especially in Families that didn't have one.
- Sponsors new members and approves lists of proposed members in other Families.
- Often presides over inductions.
- Can promote/demote underboss, captains, and in some cases consigliere.
- Can have soldiers or a decina direct w/ him.
- Sits on the consiglio.
- Can't be killed without Commission approval (during that era).

Underboss / Sottocapo
- Appointed by the boss, must be a made member.
- Must be introduced as an underboss by a third party who has already been introduced to him as such.
- Represents the boss on the street.
- Sometimes a loyalist of boss, other times head of a separate faction.
- Directs many of the Family operations.
- Can represent his boss at Commission meetings if needed.
- Sometimes responsible for "enforcement".
- Sponsors new members and approves lists of proposed members in other Families.
- Sometimes serves as acting boss.
- Often presides over inductions.
- Can have soldiers or a decina direct w/ him.
- Sits on the consiglio.
- Can't be killed without Commission approval (during that era).

Consigliere
- Elected by the membership in many cases, must be a made member.
- Can apparently be voted out by the membership / captains (Gotti / Gallo wiretap).
- Must be introduced as a consigliere by a third party who has already been introduced to him as such.
- Represents the full membership, advises everyone from the boss down to the soldiers.
- Represents the Family in high-level sitdowns and deals with other Families.
- Sometimes a loyalist of boss, other times head of separate faction.
- Carries out many of the duties of the consiglio, especially in Families that didn't have one.
- Can attend Commission meetings as a Family representative.
- Looks after the Family treasury.
- Often the final word in internal beefs between members.
- Sometimes has specific ceremonial duties at inductions and elections.
- Sponsors new members and approves lists of proposed members in other Families.
- Often presides over the Family consiglio as chairman / secretary.
- Traditionally served as acting boss.
- Can have soldiers or a decina direct w/ him.
- Sits on the consiglio.
- Can't be killed without Commission approval (during that era).

Captain / Capodecina
- Appointed by the boss, must be a made member.
- Must be introduced as a captain by a third party who has already been introduced to him as such.
- Can be assigned a wide range of members or none.
- Can represent the Family in sitdowns with other Families' captains.
- Solves lower-level problems involving members and associates.
- When the entire membership can't attend, casts vote(s) on behalf of his members at boss elections.
- Two captains together can preside over inductions in the absence of the admin.
- Sometimes serves as acting admin member or part of a ruling panel.
- Sponsors new members and approves lists of proposed members in other Families.
- Directs all operations within his decina.
- Can sit on the consiglio.
- Can't be killed without the admin's (Commission?) approval.

Soldier / Soldato
- Must be a made member.
- Must be introduced as a member by a third party who has already been introduced to both members.
- Can have any number of associates "on record" with him.
- Represents the Family in lower-level interactions with other Families.
- Can sit down with soldiers of other crews and Families to settle problems.
- Directs his associates' operations.
- Sponsors new members.
- Can transfer to another Family w/ approval of both Families' leadership.
- Can serve as acting captain or in rare cases acting admin.
- Can sit on the consiglio in select cases.
- Can't be killed without the admin's approval.
- Must check in with his captain in regular intervals.
- Must notify superior and receive approval before traveling.

Associate
- Can be anyone of any ethnicity -- if Italian, can be proposed for membership.
- Range of operational power is extremely wide, can be an operational leader or a gofer and everything between.
- Can be on record with a member of any rank, from admin to soldier.
- Can meet with a member of any rank so long as the ranking member approves.
- If highly respected and well-positioned, can be consulted in important matters and be seen as an extension of high-ranking members.
- Depending on who he is, can't be killed without the approval of the org, while others are more disposable.
- Can be "released" to another member or Family so long as his superiors in the organization approve.
- Can attend sitdowns / meetings when invited.
- If low-level, can be used as muscle or a grunt who is ordered to carry out tasks for the org.
- Attends social events with members, even events with a thinly-veiled organizational purpose (celebrating inductions, elections, Family Christmas parties, etc.)

Can a soldier actually propose an associate, or do they just make a recommendation to their captain on who should get made? Isn't it usually the captain that officially proposes an associate to the boss?

[Angelo Santino]

When I first read about this 'vs' perspective (think it was a few years ago), my thought was "I can see the difference but who cares about organizational status if they're operating differently". Its almost like pointing out a detail that was arbitrary. The mob itself seemed to give organizational less weight than operational.

But I guess as time went on and I can see how as a historian you wouldn't want to label someone's organizational status wrong, not because its important to get it 'right' in the moment, but because it could lead to confusion or contradictions several research steps down the road....I think?

Yes, but it goes deeper than that. Org and Op allows us to classify what we hear.

Let's say I am a Gambino member and there are two wiretaps that mention me.

Wiretap 1 involving made members talking: "Angelo's under Mikey Scars."

Wiretap 2 involving non-members in a gambling ring: "We're going to have to go to the boss about this and see what Angelo says."

Wiretap 1 identifies me as a soldier in DiLeonardo's decina whereas Wiretap 2 calls me "the boss." What am I? We know the boss of the Gambinos are the Gottis so I'm not that. Made members are referring to me as a soldier under DiLeonardo, associates are calling me "the boss."

Within the organization- I am a soldier. But operationally to these associates, I am their boss. No one is going to say that DiLeonardo has members in his decina holding the title of boss.

Outsiders try and make sense of it and conclude, "well Angelo is a crew boss" "like a capo." But say Gotti calls a meeting and all the members have to attend, I'm going to that meeting as a soldier in the DiLeonardo crew. Black and white. Gotti's not going to say "That Ange, he's got associates with him, he's a crew boss, go sit in the crew boss section, actually fk let's just call him a capo."

These little nuances can be confusing and/or misleading. My presentation of Org and Op is an attempt to explain and clear up these discrepancies.

--

Back to reality, Chin_Gigante really articulated it very well with the Colombo-Russo-Teddy Persico details.

[Guest]

Financial falls under operational. If said "non-Italian 'boss'" isn't a formal member then he's not part of the organization and never can be and the members themselves aren't confused by this. But the fact that this "non-Italian 'boss'" enjoys a large degree of respect and deference only boasts his credentials, his not being a formal member doesn't take anything away from his status.

Guys like Rockman, Watts, Alex, Lanksy are one-in-a million and labeling them "just associates" is true from an organizational perspective but misleading from an operational one. The history of the American Mafia cannot be told accurately by excluding these individuals.

You're completely right regarding your last senetence but I think that this falls completely in "organizational" because we are not talking about some operation or scheme...we are talking about protocol and TRADITION that went all around the country (all the families) for decades

They're not formal members and hence not part of the organization. Their power/influence with members of the organization stems from someone already within it. Let's use Watts as an example. Gotti would pass orders to others (including members) through him and no one would question Watts passing an order. Then Gotti dies and Pete becomes boss and lets say he hates Watts. He could approach Watts, disrespect him, order him to hand over all of his money or he and his family would be murdered. Watts would have no recourse, no defense, his power was an extention of Gotti in that world. But that didn't happen because that's generally not how Italians behave, that's the movies.

Angelo, my man, thanks again BUT I asked you about protocol and tradition which lasted/lasts for decades (if not centuries), not about Gotti passing orders through Watts...see my previous question again and think about it...take your time

Was that a question? I thought you were making a statement.

Having a seat on the round table + voting = protocol

Taking care of widows and families of deceased or imprisoned Italian made members and Italian bosses + protocol = tradition

Right?

Falls under operational. Mafia as an organization does not have a set-standard for how to deal with members deceased families. "Taking care" would involve financial disperses and there's no rule that prohibits non-members from taking part in such talks granted he attains that level of trust and confidence with those holding the highest offices.

The fact that he can't be a member isn't being dismissive, to the contrary it makes said individual more impressive. Drawing back to Watts-Gotti, how many people, including members, were selected to act as Gotti's middleman or could approach Gotti and say that he ought to make DiLeonardo?

This question has nothing to do with members or non- members. Rather the action of taking care of prisoners families not being an organizational decision.

I would argue that evidence of such activity, it almost HAS to be an organizational decree. And it also seems like it's a feature of highly sophisticated organizations.

It's one of the things I use as a counter argument when people argue Naples is unorganized. If you follow Sicily, a large part of their income is being paid out to prisoners families, and causing liquidity issues.
( All the clans with money are calling shots there..... I'll get to that part later..)
And this is definitely an organizational strategy to reduce informants and maintain loyalty. Didn't Chins son run a loan business for this purpose? It seems like it's becoming more of a standard.

I always thought Profaci greedy for taking monthly tributes, then you find out apparently Carlo did the same thing. I think the issues arose when the rank and file realized they were pocketing this money.

[CabriniGreen]

There's a lot more to this topic... me personally?


I think Sicilian Mafia, and Sicilian faction are 2 different things. One is operation, the other organization.
I also don't like Calabrian mafia, and the whole " Sicilians vs Calabrian" thing. It's too simplistic.

[mr white]

Juice is juice and self evident

[CabriniGreen]

I don't see the organisational/ operational distinction as a 'guess', I see it as the most useful term we have as researchers to give to an observed process or understanding within cosa nostra that has no name. And those observations are based off of collecting, comparing, and contrasting statements made (be that from witness testimony, tell-all books, wiretaps, etc) by inducted members.

The simplest example I can think of is from the commission in the early 1980s. Vincent Gigante was frustrated about being called to meetings to discuss the construction business, and felt the commission should be reserved for matters pertaining to cosa nostra. There's no name for that distinction within cosa nostra, they get it, but it's useful for us as researchers. Gigante wanted to reserve commission meetings to matters relating to cosa nostra (the organisation), not construction (an operation). I say academic because this is a conversation very much about how we conduct research and evaluate information, but organisational/ operational isn't a hypothesis or conjecture, it's a label we can apply to observed modes of activity within cosa nostra.

A more recent example I'd point to is Steven Crea's position in the Lucchese family in the 2010s. Our best source of information from that period is obviously John Pennisi since he was an inducted member who was active on the street at that time. When discussing his administration, Pennisi has made it clear that while Crea's rank and title in the organisation was official underboss, guys on the street viewed him effectively as the guy really running the family. There was even a point from 2015 to early 2017 when Crea was (in organisational terms) the highest ranking member on the street as official boss Vic Amuso and acting boss Matthew Madonna were in prison. Then from 2016 to 2017, Crea was the only administration member on the street after consigliere Joe DiNapoli was also incarcerated. But Pennisi is clear that Crea officially was the underboss during that time, he was not even granted the role of acting boss. Operationally, it's clear, Crea was the one running the family at the time and the one member that was looked to as their 'guy', but organisationally he was the underboss. Now Pennisi doesn't use the organisational/ operational term but he doesn't have to. As an insider, he comes with an intrinsic understanding of the situation and is able to keep the distinction between Crea's rank and his de facto power clear in his head. He spells it out the way he does not for his own benefit but for his audience's.

I see the same thing playing out in the Colombo family over recent years. While Andrew Russo was the official boss of the family, it's clear that Teddy Persico was the real power behind the scenes. The government gathered intelligence from recorded conversations of captains stating that Persico had 'final say' over issues and could overrule Benji Castellazzo, the official underboss. It would be accurate to refer to Persico therefore as the real de-facto boss of the family, but this was not his official rank. In organisational terms, he was a captain without a crew. That's how I look at it. If Persico was to be introduced to another member during that time, he'd be introduced as a captain, not as the boss of the family. That's organisational to me. Now, the third party may pull the other member aside and say, 'Look, Teddy's our guy', but that's operational. That's not to say the operational isn't important, it's hugely important. You can't get an accurate picture of the family during that period without looking at Persico's clout, but it's a different mode of authority.

That's why I say the organisational/ operational thing is the farthest thing from a guess. It's a useful term used for us to apply to a very real distinction we observe within cosa nostra.

1st off.. Great post...
Clarification here Chin...

Going off your Persico point, the Westside front boss thing wasn't an organizational management strategy?
Like... thats not a racket like the Concrete club...why operational there? Same with Crea I guess.... why Ops and not Org?

Also, I would say ANY business of sufficient size, through emergence tends to breach the Realm of power. They become very Government-like.They have a habit of sprouting their own bureaucracies, hierarchies, ( CEOs, Boards of Directors, rules and regulations.. ect..) even the mobs biggest rackets all spawned panels to oversee them. You start with a Concrete Club, and before you know it, it's so big it affects Commision politics. A Waste Trade Association had guys like Failla " caucusing" with a sitting Mayor. Whereas the bigger an organization/ Government gets, it needs to do business. This is actually the situation in Italy now. The clans with the liquidity and corporate structures in place, the ones with the higher capacity for business are the central reference right now. So they traded the violence of the Corleonesi for the business of the Parlermo people..So sometimes, business can put guys in that Executive Branch position.

The main issue is the violence. John Dicke has it right I think. It's violence that usually " qualifies" a mafiosi for the " Executive Branch". This is why Teddy Persico is there, and why Mancuso is there now.

As far as a "Legislative/Judicial Branch", I think it's evenly decentralized throughout the mafia structure. A soldier can preside over a sitdown of associates, Capo over soldiers, and so on. If the subordinate body, the Commision is non functional, the " Judicial/ Legislative" aspect is diminished, but not lost. The families.... forgive my analogies, I'm into some weird shit, but the families are kinda designed to be like fractals. Every family has the necessary information to reconstitute the whole. I think it's what Buscetta meant when he said a family still lives if even only one made member is alive.

Economics... is interesting. It doesn't equate to rank. But I've always linked it to a mafiosis individual competence, ESPECIALLY in the STATES. In Italy, some of these positions are almost hereditary. That shit does NOT fly in the States. This is why so many of the rats complain about nepotism.

[CabriniGreen]

Juice is juice and self evident

I don't get it...?

[funkster]

Some of the basic organizational functions of these roles. Probably forgetting some.

Consiglio / Council / Chair / Board
- Seats belong to made members ranging from admin to soldier.
- Apparently voted in by the membership.
- Conducts underworld trials involving made members.
- Votes on said trials, internal policy, and other matters relevant to the org.
- Can approve transfers (Gentile in San Fran) and holds banquet afterward.
- Likely involved in approving / conducting inductions.
- Presides over boss elections and can remove a boss from power.
- Chairman can consult directly with the Commission about an issue with the boss.
- Discusses and decides on murders.
- Mediates Family disputes.

Boss / Rappresentante
- Must be a made member, can be elected by the entire membership or captains.
- Can be voted out of office by the membership.
- Must be introduced as a boss by a third party who has already been introduced to him as such.
- Represents the Family in high-level politics with other Families.
- Influences all facets of the organization.
- Either sits on the Commission or answers to an avugad on the Commission.
- Carries out many of the duties of the consiglio, especially in Families that didn't have one.
- Sponsors new members and approves lists of proposed members in other Families.
- Often presides over inductions.
- Can promote/demote underboss, captains, and in some cases consigliere.
- Can have soldiers or a decina direct w/ him.
- Sits on the consiglio.
- Can't be killed without Commission approval (during that era).

Underboss / Sottocapo
- Appointed by the boss, must be a made member.
- Must be introduced as an underboss by a third party who has already been introduced to him as such.
- Represents the boss on the street.
- Sometimes a loyalist of boss, other times head of a separate faction.
- Directs many of the Family operations.
- Can represent his boss at Commission meetings if needed.
- Sometimes responsible for "enforcement".
- Sponsors new members and approves lists of proposed members in other Families.
- Sometimes serves as acting boss.
- Often presides over inductions.
- Can have soldiers or a decina direct w/ him.
- Sits on the consiglio.
- Can't be killed without Commission approval (during that era).

Consigliere
- Elected by the membership in many cases, must be a made member.
- Can apparently be voted out by the membership / captains (Gotti / Gallo wiretap).
- Must be introduced as a consigliere by a third party who has already been introduced to him as such.
- Represents the full membership, advises everyone from the boss down to the soldiers.
- Represents the Family in high-level sitdowns and deals with other Families.
- Sometimes a loyalist of boss, other times head of separate faction.
- Carries out many of the duties of the consiglio, especially in Families that didn't have one.
- Can attend Commission meetings as a Family representative.
- Looks after the Family treasury.
- Often the final word in internal beefs between members.
- Sometimes has specific ceremonial duties at inductions and elections.
- Sponsors new members and approves lists of proposed members in other Families.
- Often presides over the Family consiglio as chairman / secretary.
- Traditionally served as acting boss.
- Can have soldiers or a decina direct w/ him.
- Sits on the consiglio.
- Can't be killed without Commission approval (during that era).

Captain / Capodecina
- Appointed by the boss, must be a made member.
- Must be introduced as a captain by a third party who has already been introduced to him as such.
- Can be assigned a wide range of members or none.
- Can represent the Family in sitdowns with other Families' captains.
- Solves lower-level problems involving members and associates.
- When the entire membership can't attend, casts vote(s) on behalf of his members at boss elections.
- Two captains together can preside over inductions in the absence of the admin.
- Sometimes serves as acting admin member or part of a ruling panel.
- Sponsors new members and approves lists of proposed members in other Families.
- Directs all operations within his decina.
- Can sit on the consiglio.
- Can't be killed without the admin's (Commission?) approval.

Soldier / Soldato
- Must be a made member.
- Must be introduced as a member by a third party who has already been introduced to both members.
- Can have any number of associates "on record" with him.
- Represents the Family in lower-level interactions with other Families.
- Can sit down with soldiers of other crews and Families to settle problems.
- Directs his associates' operations.
- Sponsors new members.
- Can transfer to another Family w/ approval of both Families' leadership.
- Can serve as acting captain or in rare cases acting admin.
- Can sit on the consiglio in select cases.
- Can't be killed without the admin's approval.
- Must check in with his captain in regular intervals.
- Must notify superior and receive approval before traveling.

Associate
- Can be anyone of any ethnicity -- if Italian, can be proposed for membership.
- Range of operational power is extremely wide, can be an operational leader or a gofer and everything between.
- Can be on record with a member of any rank, from admin to soldier.
- Can meet with a member of any rank so long as the ranking member approves.
- If highly respected and well-positioned, can be consulted in important matters and be seen as an extension of high-ranking members.
- Depending on who he is, can't be killed without the approval of the org, while others are more disposable.
- Can be "released" to another member or Family so long as his superiors in the organization approve.
- Can attend sitdowns / meetings when invited.
- If low-level, can be used as muscle or a grunt who is ordered to carry out tasks for the org.
- Attends social events with members, even events with a thinly-veiled organizational purpose (celebrating inductions, elections, Family Christmas parties, etc.)

Can a soldier actually propose an associate, or do they just make a recommendation to their captain on who should get made? Isn't it usually the captain that officially proposes an associate to the boss?

I thought the same for a long time but I've seen a lot of evidence that soldiers can do it. Maybe someone can shed some light on whether or not they can be proposed by a solder then OFFICIALLY have their name sent up by a captain?

[TallGuy19]

Some of the basic organizational functions of these roles. Probably forgetting some.

Consiglio / Council / Chair / Board
- Seats belong to made members ranging from admin to soldier.
- Apparently voted in by the membership.
- Conducts underworld trials involving made members.
- Votes on said trials, internal policy, and other matters relevant to the org.
- Can approve transfers (Gentile in San Fran) and holds banquet afterward.
- Likely involved in approving / conducting inductions.
- Presides over boss elections and can remove a boss from power.
- Chairman can consult directly with the Commission about an issue with the boss.
- Discusses and decides on murders.
- Mediates Family disputes.

Boss / Rappresentante
- Must be a made member, can be elected by the entire membership or captains.
- Can be voted out of office by the membership.
- Must be introduced as a boss by a third party who has already been introduced to him as such.
- Represents the Family in high-level politics with other Families.
- Influences all facets of the organization.
- Either sits on the Commission or answers to an avugad on the Commission.
- Carries out many of the duties of the consiglio, especially in Families that didn't have one.
- Sponsors new members and approves lists of proposed members in other Families.
- Often presides over inductions.
- Can promote/demote underboss, captains, and in some cases consigliere.
- Can have soldiers or a decina direct w/ him.
- Sits on the consiglio.
- Can't be killed without Commission approval (during that era).

Underboss / Sottocapo
- Appointed by the boss, must be a made member.
- Must be introduced as an underboss by a third party who has already been introduced to him as such.
- Represents the boss on the street.
- Sometimes a loyalist of boss, other times head of a separate faction.
- Directs many of the Family operations.
- Can represent his boss at Commission meetings if needed.
- Sometimes responsible for "enforcement".
- Sponsors new members and approves lists of proposed members in other Families.
- Sometimes serves as acting boss.
- Often presides over inductions.
- Can have soldiers or a decina direct w/ him.
- Sits on the consiglio.
- Can't be killed without Commission approval (during that era).

Consigliere
- Elected by the membership in many cases, must be a made member.
- Can apparently be voted out by the membership / captains (Gotti / Gallo wiretap).
- Must be introduced as a consigliere by a third party who has already been introduced to him as such.
- Represents the full membership, advises everyone from the boss down to the soldiers.
- Represents the Family in high-level sitdowns and deals with other Families.
- Sometimes a loyalist of boss, other times head of separate faction.
- Carries out many of the duties of the consiglio, especially in Families that didn't have one.
- Can attend Commission meetings as a Family representative.
- Looks after the Family treasury.
- Often the final word in internal beefs between members.
- Sometimes has specific ceremonial duties at inductions and elections.
- Sponsors new members and approves lists of proposed members in other Families.
- Often presides over the Family consiglio as chairman / secretary.
- Traditionally served as acting boss.
- Can have soldiers or a decina direct w/ him.
- Sits on the consiglio.
- Can't be killed without Commission approval (during that era).

Captain / Capodecina
- Appointed by the boss, must be a made member.
- Must be introduced as a captain by a third party who has already been introduced to him as such.
- Can be assigned a wide range of members or none.
- Can represent the Family in sitdowns with other Families' captains.
- Solves lower-level problems involving members and associates.
- When the entire membership can't attend, casts vote(s) on behalf of his members at boss elections.
- Two captains together can preside over inductions in the absence of the admin.
- Sometimes serves as acting admin member or part of a ruling panel.
- Sponsors new members and approves lists of proposed members in other Families.
- Directs all operations within his decina.
- Can sit on the consiglio.
- Can't be killed without the admin's (Commission?) approval.

Soldier / Soldato
- Must be a made member.
- Must be introduced as a member by a third party who has already been introduced to both members.
- Can have any number of associates "on record" with him.
- Represents the Family in lower-level interactions with other Families.
- Can sit down with soldiers of other crews and Families to settle problems.
- Directs his associates' operations.
- Sponsors new members.
- Can transfer to another Family w/ approval of both Families' leadership.
- Can serve as acting captain or in rare cases acting admin.
- Can sit on the consiglio in select cases.
- Can't be killed without the admin's approval.
- Must check in with his captain in regular intervals.
- Must notify superior and receive approval before traveling.

Associate
- Can be anyone of any ethnicity -- if Italian, can be proposed for membership.
- Range of operational power is extremely wide, can be an operational leader or a gofer and everything between.
- Can be on record with a member of any rank, from admin to soldier.
- Can meet with a member of any rank so long as the ranking member approves.
- If highly respected and well-positioned, can be consulted in important matters and be seen as an extension of high-ranking members.
- Depending on who he is, can't be killed without the approval of the org, while others are more disposable.
- Can be "released" to another member or Family so long as his superiors in the organization approve.
- Can attend sitdowns / meetings when invited.
- If low-level, can be used as muscle or a grunt who is ordered to carry out tasks for the org.
- Attends social events with members, even events with a thinly-veiled organizational purpose (celebrating inductions, elections, Family Christmas parties, etc.)

Can a soldier actually propose an associate, or do they just make a recommendation to their captain on who should get made? Isn't it usually the captain that officially proposes an associate to the boss?

I thought the same for a long time but I've seen a lot of evidence that soldiers can do it.

I remember seeing a list of Bonanno inductees along with their sponsors, and all of them had been sponsored by a captain or higher. I assume that at least some of those associates were recommended to the captain by a soldier and the captain proposed them to the boss.

But then there's the Louie Milito situation where John Rizzo (a soldier at the time) refused to propose him, so Gravano did an end-run and had Toddo propose Milito. In that instance, Gravano made it seem like it was mandatory for an associate's direct superior to propose them.

[B.]

Good post, Cabrini.

Chin's point about Teddy Persico is similar to his uncle in the 1970s. Tom DiBella was the official boss but people commonly refer to Carmine Persico as the boss because the Persico faction was the muscle / street power behind DiBella. Persico was technically an incarcerated soldier but on an operational / de facto level he was worlds away from being an ordinary rank-and-file member. Tom DiBella was also important in his own right -- little to no criminal activity but a formidable "dock boss" whose father was once both the Family boss and a dock boss himsel. DiBella was a strategic political choice during a time of turmoil and that meant something to the org even if there was more going on within the Family's power dynamic.

When you look at operational and organizational they tell different histories that intersect and overlap but don't define each other.

Org history = Ranks, rules, hierarchy going back to the beginning. It's black and white and rarely open to interpretation when we have inside accounts. Someone's either the official boss or he's not. He's a capodecina or he's not. He's made or he's not.

Op history = Dominance in cattle rustling, counterfeiting, bootlegging, certain industries, etc. but these come and go and don't define the org. In the early 1900s the bosses / high-ranking members in NYC were also supervising counterfeiting so you could say being the boss of the Morello and Lupo Families meant being a counterfeiting boss but when counterfeiting went away these Families still had bosses from the same lineage and counterfeiting didn't define their role at all. You can't tell the story of the early NYC mafia without counterfeiting but it wasn't organizational, it was operational. In 1915, a guy could have been a counterfeiting "boss" but that didn't automatically make him the Family boss even though the bosses were oversaw counterfeiting 5 years earlier.

[B.]

Re: soldiers proposing members. They can absolutely do it. Valachi proposed at least four members in the 1950s and he's one of countless examples. In Chicago it looks like capidecine generally proposed members into their crews and in NYC the captain would of course have to approve and be part of the process but a soldier could still be the one to propose/sponsor someone.

[funkster]

Hasn't it also been rumored that Fat Andy proposed Gotti sr? Would be an interesting question to pose to Michael D.

[Don_Peppino]

Not an expert on Chicago but I agree with Angelo. Villian presented evidence of a "operating Culture" (every Family operates differently). The point os clear. Organization (were you formally inducted and recognized as such) Operational (are you an earner? Are you feared? Are you close to the Admin? Do you hold sway? Does your name "move the neddle"?)
Example.
Carmine Galante (organization) was officially recognized as Caporegime. But (operationally) he pretty much had a faction to himself in Montreal and NYC. Ran the Family's drug operation and his closeness to Bonanno would have you believe he was the Underboss when he wasn't.
Another is Jackie Nose D'Amico who (organizationally) was a Caporegime. Mikey Scars described him (respectfully) as a brokester. When it comes to rackets, he might not even be in the room. When it comes to a protocol meeting, he might be one of the major speakers. That's operational.

When it comes to Humphreys and Alex, its plausible that they're carried that much weight for consideration. But we can all agree that, only members had a actual vote, no matter who was given grace to make an opinion.