Organization & Operation revisited

[Angelo Santino]

Watching some podcasts today and I feel this needs to be revisited. I love Scott but we do have very different perspectives on this stuff.

Awhile back I introduced the concept or duality of what I coined the Organizational and Operational aspects of Mafia. People at first were confused and then gradually people began to understand/agree.

Organization (Mafia anatomy): Formal members of the Mafia, whether they got their finger picked or told they're a member, very black and white. Someone either is a member or they are not. There is no grey area. "Like a capo" or "Like a soldier" doesn't mean anything, that falls under operational. The Organization layout has pretty much remained consistent since recorded Mafia History. Boss, Under, Consig, Capodecina, Soldier. An example of how little it has changed we can look at what appears to be an American rendition of Captains having a lieutenant - personal underboss or Acting Captains as they are called in different cities. (Many "Acting Capos" hold that position despite the official Capo being on the street and/or free of legal trouble so the title is misleading.) Despite that, they are still technically soldiers. Other examples could be "ruling panels" or the Genovese "Messagero" but these are arguably functions since people who sat on/held these roles were captains, they weren't pulled out of the hierarchy and assigned a special new rank. Acting Captains, Panels, Messenger are essentially functions that an individual who already has an official position (including soldier) operates as.

What the organization boils down to is that its a system of representation. A Boss represents his family to other bosses, captains represent their soldiers. All members, regardless of rank, can have associates "on record" in which they represent.

The Organizational structure is not criminal so much that its a form of government set up to represent members within the network regardless of what crimes they are or aren't involved in. The Mafia as an organization isn't set up to manage a specific criminal enterprise like say the cartels or any drug crew that have specific roles for each individual- enforcers, movers, crew bosses, accountants, hitmen etc. Office positions (Boss to Capo) are not selected based on criminality- there are no official Finance Capo or Hit Team Capo. They are better viewed as political or mafia-government positions.

When it comes to penetrating the organization, you need a wiretap or an informant to confirm who is a member, who holds what position. We as outsiders cannot guess with any degree of accuracy. Especially when most view "soldiers" as low-level grunts working fervently to generate criminal proceeds to "kick up" which is a very dramatic view and leads to outsiders wanting to label members who aren't grunts as capos or "like a capo" and they not. "Soldiers" are a wide spectrum of very active criminals, white collar racketeers, do nothings and semi-legitimate people. They can be very powerful in their own right and the fact that they don't or do not wish to hold rank ie be a representative with members under them does not take anything any from their prestige.

Which brings us to Operational (Mafia physiology): How things run and what is arguably the more visible side to outsiders.

Awhile back, I'm sure it still goes on, there were board discussions on how to successfully run a family and someone said: "A boss should only deal with his underboss, captains should only deal with soldiers and soldiers should handle the associates." That would only work if a Mafia structure centered around a criminal business. Instead it's a network and members can navigate that network as they wish, be it opening a business, bookmaking or drug dealing. They use their resources within the mafia network. And this includes the use of / partnerships with non-Mafia members.

The Mafia, in every part of the world in which it exists, always had friendships, contacts or business deals with non-members. It's how it has survived and thrived in America since the 1850's. There's this idea that Mafiosi only keep to themselves and scowl at others based on race or origin. That's just simply not the case. It's important to remember that it's not a monolith, members conduct themselves in different ways. Some might prefer to deal only with their compaesani while others are more liberal in their dealings while some prefer to exclusively deal with non-members.

When member or members are engaged in some venture, be it bookmaking or store chains, they don't exist in a bubble. They are in fact connected/know others in that industry and will often go into partnerships with them. The arrangement is often mutually beneficial and doesn't involve a well-dressed Italian walking into an establishment throwing his weight around and giving orders to non-members or non-Italians.

A Boss, a soldier, and 3 Irishman could be partnered on something, when they are, this falls outside of the organization. Theoretically, an Irishman could own the business, the soldier run it and the boss listed as a salesman. It's very misleading for outsiders looking in.

Pivot:

Both sides of this are what make the mafia the mafia and are of equal importance.

Rant over, back to editing last weeks episode of the Mob Archs.

We did cover this topic in an episode-

Organizational Vs. Operational: What separates the formal mafia organization from how it operates?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMJN4F6IMNk&t=6037s

[Villain]

If a non-Italian "boss" has the right to vote on the crime family's round table regarding the financial help of the family or families of a deceased or imprisoned Italian made members or Italian bosses....Is that operational or organizational? I think I already know your answer (probably will be "operational" lol) but im quite interested in your intellectual explanation about it...

[Angelo Santino]

Financial falls under operational. If said "non-Italian 'boss'" isn't a formal member then he's not part of the organization and never can be and the members themselves aren't confused by this. But the fact that this "non-Italian 'boss'" enjoys a large degree of respect and deference only boasts his credentials, his not being a formal member doesn't take anything away from his status.

Guys like Rockman, Watts, Alex, Lanksy are one-in-a million and labeling them "just associates" is true from an organizational perspective but misleading from an operational one. The history of the American Mafia cannot be told accurately by excluding these individuals.

[Villain]

Financial falls under operational. If said "non-Italian 'boss'" isn't a formal member then he's not part of the organization and never can be and the members themselves aren't confused by this. But the fact that this "non-Italian 'boss'" enjoys a large degree of respect and deference only boasts his credentials, his not being a formal member doesn't take anything away from his status.

Guys like Rockman, Watts, Alex, Lanksy are one-in-a million and labeling them "just associates" is true from an organizational perspective but misleading from an operational one. The history of the American Mafia cannot be told accurately by excluding these individuals.

You're completely right regarding your last senetence but I think that this falls completely in "organizational" because we are not talking about some operation or scheme...we are talking about PROTOCOL and TRADITION that went all around the country (all the families) for decades

[Angelo Santino]

Financial falls under operational. If said "non-Italian 'boss'" isn't a formal member then he's not part of the organization and never can be and the members themselves aren't confused by this. But the fact that this "non-Italian 'boss'" enjoys a large degree of respect and deference only boasts his credentials, his not being a formal member doesn't take anything away from his status.

Guys like Rockman, Watts, Alex, Lanksy are one-in-a million and labeling them "just associates" is true from an organizational perspective but misleading from an operational one. The history of the American Mafia cannot be told accurately by excluding these individuals.

You're completely right regarding your last senetence but I think that this falls completely in "organizational" because we are not talking about some operation or scheme...we are talking about protocol and TRADITION that went all around the country (all the families) for decades

They're not formal members and hence not part of the organization. Their power/influence with members of the organization stems from someone already within it. Let's use Watts as an example. Gotti would pass orders to others (including members) through him and no one would question Watts passing an order. Then Gotti dies and Pete becomes boss and lets say he hates Watts. He could approach Watts, disrespect him, order him to hand over all of his money or he and his family would be murdered. Watts would have no recourse, no defense, his power was an extention of Gotti in that world. But that didn't happen because that's generally not how Italians behave, that's the movies.

[Villain]

Financial falls under operational. If said "non-Italian 'boss'" isn't a formal member then he's not part of the organization and never can be and the members themselves aren't confused by this. But the fact that this "non-Italian 'boss'" enjoys a large degree of respect and deference only boasts his credentials, his not being a formal member doesn't take anything away from his status.

Guys like Rockman, Watts, Alex, Lanksy are one-in-a million and labeling them "just associates" is true from an organizational perspective but misleading from an operational one. The history of the American Mafia cannot be told accurately by excluding these individuals.

You're completely right regarding your last senetence but I think that this falls completely in "organizational" because we are not talking about some operation or scheme...we are talking about protocol and TRADITION that went all around the country (all the families) for decades

They're not formal members and hence not part of the organization. Their power/influence with members of the organization stems from someone already within it. Let's use Watts as an example. Gotti would pass orders to others (including members) through him and no one would question Watts passing an order. Then Gotti dies and Pete becomes boss and lets say he hates Watts. He could approach Watts, disrespect him, order him to hand over all of his money or he and his family would be murdered. Watts would have no recourse, no defense, his power was an extention of Gotti in that world. But that didn't happen because that's generally not how Italians behave, that's the movies.

Angelo, my man, thanks again BUT I asked you about protocol and tradition which lasted/lasts for decades (if not centuries), not about Gotti passing orders through Watts...see my previous question again and think about it...take your time

[B.]

There's the organization and then the organization's sphere of influence. They're codependent and can't be separated but formally there's a hardline distinction and it isn't open to interpretation.

Organization & Operation are our terms for it, not how they'd refer to it, but it is well-understood by anyone who is an actual member or for that matter a well-schooled associate.

[Angelo Santino]

Financial falls under operational. If said "non-Italian 'boss'" isn't a formal member then he's not part of the organization and never can be and the members themselves aren't confused by this. But the fact that this "non-Italian 'boss'" enjoys a large degree of respect and deference only boasts his credentials, his not being a formal member doesn't take anything away from his status.

Guys like Rockman, Watts, Alex, Lanksy are one-in-a million and labeling them "just associates" is true from an organizational perspective but misleading from an operational one. The history of the American Mafia cannot be told accurately by excluding these individuals.

You're completely right regarding your last senetence but I think that this falls completely in "organizational" because we are not talking about some operation or scheme...we are talking about protocol and TRADITION that went all around the country (all the families) for decades

They're not formal members and hence not part of the organization. Their power/influence with members of the organization stems from someone already within it. Let's use Watts as an example. Gotti would pass orders to others (including members) through him and no one would question Watts passing an order. Then Gotti dies and Pete becomes boss and lets say he hates Watts. He could approach Watts, disrespect him, order him to hand over all of his money or he and his family would be murdered. Watts would have no recourse, no defense, his power was an extention of Gotti in that world. But that didn't happen because that's generally not how Italians behave, that's the movies.

Angelo, my man, thanks again BUT I asked you about protocol and tradition which lasted/lasts for decades (if not centuries), not about Gotti passing orders through Watts...see my previous question again and think about it...take your time

Was that a question? I thought you were making a statement.

[Villain]

Financial falls under operational. If said "non-Italian 'boss'" isn't a formal member then he's not part of the organization and never can be and the members themselves aren't confused by this. But the fact that this "non-Italian 'boss'" enjoys a large degree of respect and deference only boasts his credentials, his not being a formal member doesn't take anything away from his status.

Guys like Rockman, Watts, Alex, Lanksy are one-in-a million and labeling them "just associates" is true from an organizational perspective but misleading from an operational one. The history of the American Mafia cannot be told accurately by excluding these individuals.

You're completely right regarding your last senetence but I think that this falls completely in "organizational" because we are not talking about some operation or scheme...we are talking about protocol and TRADITION that went all around the country (all the families) for decades

They're not formal members and hence not part of the organization. Their power/influence with members of the organization stems from someone already within it. Let's use Watts as an example. Gotti would pass orders to others (including members) through him and no one would question Watts passing an order. Then Gotti dies and Pete becomes boss and lets say he hates Watts. He could approach Watts, disrespect him, order him to hand over all of his money or he and his family would be murdered. Watts would have no recourse, no defense, his power was an extention of Gotti in that world. But that didn't happen because that's generally not how Italians behave, that's the movies.

Angelo, my man, thanks again BUT I asked you about protocol and tradition which lasted/lasts for decades (if not centuries), not about Gotti passing orders through Watts...see my previous question again and think about it...take your time

Was that a question? I thought you were making a statement.

Having a seat on the round table + voting = protocol

Taking care of widows and families of deceased or imprisoned Italian made members and Italian bosses + protocol = tradition

Right?

[Villain]

Its a traditional decision which needs voting from the top level guys....and in the US, especially Chicago, we have non-Italians involved in it...with the right to vote and even the right to throw away previous decision made by a Italian boss

[Angelo Santino]

Financial falls under operational. If said "non-Italian 'boss'" isn't a formal member then he's not part of the organization and never can be and the members themselves aren't confused by this. But the fact that this "non-Italian 'boss'" enjoys a large degree of respect and deference only boasts his credentials, his not being a formal member doesn't take anything away from his status.

Guys like Rockman, Watts, Alex, Lanksy are one-in-a million and labeling them "just associates" is true from an organizational perspective but misleading from an operational one. The history of the American Mafia cannot be told accurately by excluding these individuals.

You're completely right regarding your last senetence but I think that this falls completely in "organizational" because we are not talking about some operation or scheme...we are talking about protocol and TRADITION that went all around the country (all the families) for decades

They're not formal members and hence not part of the organization. Their power/influence with members of the organization stems from someone already within it. Let's use Watts as an example. Gotti would pass orders to others (including members) through him and no one would question Watts passing an order. Then Gotti dies and Pete becomes boss and lets say he hates Watts. He could approach Watts, disrespect him, order him to hand over all of his money or he and his family would be murdered. Watts would have no recourse, no defense, his power was an extention of Gotti in that world. But that didn't happen because that's generally not how Italians behave, that's the movies.

Angelo, my man, thanks again BUT I asked you about protocol and tradition which lasted/lasts for decades (if not centuries), not about Gotti passing orders through Watts...see my previous question again and think about it...take your time

Was that a question? I thought you were making a statement.

Having a seat on the round table + voting = protocol

Taking care of widows and families of deceased or imprisoned Italian made members and Italian bosses + protocol = tradition

Right?

Falls under operational. Mafia as an organization does not have a set-standard for how to deal with members deceased families. "Taking care" would involve financial disperses and there's no rule that prohibits non-members from taking part in such talks granted he attains that level of trust and confidence with those holding the highest offices.

The fact that he can't be a member isn't being dismissive, to the contrary it makes said individual more impressive. Drawing back to Watts-Gotti, how many people, including members, were selected to act as Gotti's middleman or could approach Gotti and say that he ought to make DiLeonardo?

[Antiliar]

I wouldn't call it protocol and tradition. It's an accommodation to living in the U.S. The Italians and Italian-Americans who make up the Cosa Nostra don't live in an island where they only deal with those who share their ethnicity. It's simply not possible. Working with outsiders is both practical and necessary, but it's categorically different than a Cosa Nostra tradition or rule.

Jimmy Fratianno, for example, told Mike Rizzitello to wait outside while they discussed certain matters relevant to Cosa Nostra because he wasn't a member at that time. Others have written about similar examples. I imagine in Chicago if they discussed the Commission even Gus Alex would have to leave the room. Alex could be like a captain or an underboss, but he could never be an actual captain or underboss in the Outfit because he could never become a made member. Alex was a powerful associate with powers granted to him by Ricca and Accardo, but outside of Chicago no other borgata would have to recognize his special status. When a captain like Frank Laporte traveled around, he was always recognized as a captain.

So because of Alex's status he was allowed to vote and make decisions on certain things, but those powers were limited. Alex could vote on a mid-level round table, but he wasn't on the Consiglio. He couldn't make high-level decisions.

[Angelo Santino]

Its a traditional decision which needs voting from the top level guys....and in the US, especially Chicago, we have non-Italians involved in it...with the right to vote and even the right to throw away previous decision made by a Italian boss

I don't know what a "traditional decision" is. When it comes to making racket-based decisions and racket-protocol that falls under operational. If there's a Family meeting where all the members need to attend, soldiers go as soldiers, captains as captains and on up. Associates are not allowed into an Organizational Family meeting. Once meeting is over and the conversation turns to rackets, who gets what, how money is dispersed, it turns into an operational meeting and associates can be in on the discussion and since it involves them, why exclude them? As I said, Mafia members don't exist in a bubble.

[Villain]

Financial falls under operational. If said "non-Italian 'boss'" isn't a formal member then he's not part of the organization and never can be and the members themselves aren't confused by this. But the fact that this "non-Italian 'boss'" enjoys a large degree of respect and deference only boasts his credentials, his not being a formal member doesn't take anything away from his status.

Guys like Rockman, Watts, Alex, Lanksy are one-in-a million and labeling them "just associates" is true from an organizational perspective but misleading from an operational one. The history of the American Mafia cannot be told accurately by excluding these individuals.

You're completely right regarding your last senetence but I think that this falls completely in "organizational" because we are not talking about some operation or scheme...we are talking about protocol and TRADITION that went all around the country (all the families) for decades

They're not formal members and hence not part of the organization. Their power/influence with members of the organization stems from someone already within it. Let's use Watts as an example. Gotti would pass orders to others (including members) through him and no one would question Watts passing an order. Then Gotti dies and Pete becomes boss and lets say he hates Watts. He could approach Watts, disrespect him, order him to hand over all of his money or he and his family would be murdered. Watts would have no recourse, no defense, his power was an extention of Gotti in that world. But that didn't happen because that's generally not how Italians behave, that's the movies.

Angelo, my man, thanks again BUT I asked you about protocol and tradition which lasted/lasts for decades (if not centuries), not about Gotti passing orders through Watts...see my previous question again and think about it...take your time

Was that a question? I thought you were making a statement.

Having a seat on the round table + voting = protocol

Taking care of widows and families of deceased or imprisoned Italian made members and Italian bosses + protocol = tradition

Right?

Falls under operational. Mafia as an organization does not have a set-standard for how to deal with members deceased families. "Taking care" would involve financial disperses and there's no rule that prohibits non-members from taking part in such talks granted he attains that level of trust and confidence with those holding the highest offices.

I agree but dont you think that 90% of the ORGANIZATIONAL cases are mainly tied to financies? Meaning the system of representation is mainly created by financies. Without it, there would be no system, right? Because whats the point of it? We are talking about CRIMINAL subculture here, right?

[Villain]

[Associates are not allowed into an Organizational Family meeting.

Besides making guys, can you give me few examples regarding organizational family meeting?