Non-Italians and the Chicago Outfit

[Villain]

In Ed's write-up about Blasi's cooperation he refers to him as a "La Cosa Nostra member" and he's carried on the FBI's chart, I believe sourced by Fratto. He also had a history being close to the Family leadership. That's a high-level source. Do you not think Blasi was a member or someone with unique insight?

Pierce's info is valuable but doesn't show much concrete organizational data. What he said isn't inconsistent with how the other sources referred to Alex, i.e. that he was a powerful de facto leader that influenced the Family and held a massive operational role with the blessing of the official leaders. Pierce's info shows how respected and influential people like Alex were and being a non-member himself affiliated with the "connection" group it makes sense Pierce's POV centered around Alex and he may not have seen the distinction between Alex's role and other Family leaders. Pierce's long history is valuable but also limited to certain aspects of the organization given he was a non-member.

I haven't seen all of Frank Bompensiero's cooperation from the 1970s but he was told by Chicago members that Ricca and Accardo were on the consiglio (therefore consiglieri) and directing the Family with the assistance of select captains. After Ricca died, he said Accardo and some captains continued to direct the Family on a temporary basis up until Aiuppa took over. From what's available I've never seen him refer to Alex as an official leader of the organization and he would have had no bias given he was by all appearances trying to collect accurate info for the FBI's benefit and knew the leadership was in flux. Along with other sources, he confirmed Lansky's unique role as a de facto voice on the Commission so he had no interest in de-valuing non-Italians or leaving them out during his cooperation.

It actually makes Gus Alex more interesting to me that he was an associate who was given the level of authority he had over Family-led operations. Similarly it makes the Family more interesting that they had the powerful non-Italian "connection" faction and allowed them to be so influential given we know Chicago was a secretive mafia organization that only made Italians. Chicago is an amazing American phenomenon but it doesn't change what existed there in formal terms even though they were a diverse and dynamic underworld empire that included non-members at the highest level of operations.

Yes, Blasi was a made guy but not "high level member" or "high level source", meaning he was far from that especially when Giancana left the country. When Giancana left, Blasi wasnt Battaglias assistant, nor he was Cerones or Aiuppas assistant. In fact Blasi almost got clipped after Giancana left. In plane words, he became nobody in the organization. Blasi never controlled a crew or operated some important racket.

Regarding Bompensiero.....this guy was a made member from a different family but was closely associated with Chicagos made guys for quite some time right? Sorry man but i rather go with someone who was with the Chicago guys since the days of Al Capone and belonged to their family for more than 50 years. Someone like Pierce who gave us complete and clear picture of the top leadership which also included Alex.

Now, if Alex wanted to RETIRE, what position or job he was retiring from? Was it his job at some company or he wanted to retire from the Mob? Because if he was not considered a member of the organization, he couldve done it whenever he wanted right? But we all know that Accardo didnt approve this. So was the position official which Accardo needed Alex to be on it so much? On top of that Alex wanted to retire since the early 60s but he couldnt do it, because he was INSIDE the organization, controlled his own crew (previously assisted by Ferraro) and was very much needed by the bosses. So if Alex's position wasnt official, then why Accardo and Aiuppa had to find someone powerful and quite experienced so he can quickly replace Alex and take his responsibilities? And thats why Cerone took it. So THIS WAS OBVIOUSLY OFFICIAL POSITION WITHIN THE OUTFITS ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE.

I already posted information which shows us that after Humphreys death, the non-Itals already held an official spot within the structure and so Humphreys was replaced by Alex. Present on the meeting were Battaglia the boss, 3 high level made guys and some non-Itals. Later Alex received even HIGHER AND INFLUENTIAL POSITION than his previous position which in fact was OFFICIAL.

So I ask you again, what type of position Alex wanted to retire from in 1973 and on top of that he wasnt allowed to do it by the Outfits top boss, except for very short time periods?

Back in those days lots of important guys were allowed to retire, both made and non-Ital, but not Alex. Why?

So the information regarding the non-Itals having official spot haven been substantiated lots of times.

Also I never said that "The 1970s outfit had a substantially different approach to the formal status of non-Italians compared to the 1960s and 1980". I said that during the late 60s and early 70s lots of changes occurred because of huge pressure which was coming from the government and fear from informants, and that lots of important and smart leaders died or were imprisoned, meaning there werent too many smart guys left n the street and in the organization. Lets look at the situation shall we?!

Imprisoned bosses from that time period:

1. Battaglia was imprisoned in 1967.

2. Cerone and Alderisio were in jail in 1970.


Deceased bosses and capos from that period:

1. Alderisio and Gagliano died in 1971.

2. Ricca, LaPorte and Prio all died in 1972.

3. Buccieri and Battaglia (while in prison) died in 1973.

(by 1974 or 75 Nicoletti was shelved)


So i believe you can see my point here, meaning Alex was "forced" to take one of these high level official positions (under Accardo) which previously belonged to some of the previous bosses and capos.

[B.]

Yes, Blasi was a made guy but not "high level member" or "high level source", meaning he was far from that especially when Giancana left the country. When Giancana left, Blasi wasnt Battaglias assistant, nor he was Cerones or Aiuppas assistant. In fact Blasi almost got clipped after Giancana left. In plane words, he became nobody in the organization. Blasi never controlled a crew or operated some important racket.

By "high-level source", I mean he was a made member and Top Echelon informant. That's a high-level source and his crew or rackets aren't relevant, it's his inside knowledge of how the organization works. Member sources are crucial to understanding these details.

Here's what Blasi's report says in the 1970s:

blasi1.png

His take is consistent w/ Fratto and DeRose in the 1960s and it's a fair and accurate way of describing Alex. He was considered a leader but was not technically a member. I understand you make a distinction between membership in Cosa Nostra and a wider Chicago "brotherhood" but there's no evidence from reliable sources that the latter existed in any formal way beyond Chicago controlling powerful non-Italian elements in their wider organized crime empire.

Regarding Bompensiero.....this guy was a made member from a different family but was closely associated with Chicagos made guys for quite some time right? Sorry man but i rather go with someone who was with the Chicago guys since the days of Al Capone and belonged to their family for more than 50 years. Someone like Pierce who gave us complete and clear picture of the top leadership which also included Alex.

I understand the value of local sources, but Bompensiero was visiting Chicago as a made member since at least 1931 and had decades of relationships with high-ranking members who updated him when they met up during his cooperation in the 60s-70s. He almost became a Chicago member too in the 1960s but his transfer was denied by Commission member Tommy Lucchese because he had an outstanding murder contract to do in LA.

With Chicago sources, we have multiple informants whose identities are confirmed and we've been discussing them here. It seems like you don't believe three of them for your own reasons.

As for Pierce, even at face value I don't see anything that confirms what you said. He was a valuable informant but also a non-member whose information discusses the organization mostly in broad and general terms. Did he ever say anything more concrete beyond vague descriptions like "leader", "advisor", etc? From what I've seen, they never explicitly asked him about nor did he explain what we're discussing here but if there's a report I missed please let me know.

Now, if Alex wanted to RETIRE, what position or job he was retiring from? Was it his job at some company or he wanted to retire from the Mob? Because if he was not considered a member of the organization, he couldve done it whenever he wanted right? But we all know that Accardo didnt approve this. So was the position official which Accardo needed Alex to be on it so much? On top of that Alex wanted to retire since the early 60s but he couldnt do it, because he was INSIDE the organization, controlled his own crew (previously assisted by Ferraro) and was very much needed by the bosses. So if Alex's position wasnt official, then why Accardo and Aiuppa had to find some powerful and experienced so he can quickly replace Alex? And thats why Cerone took it. So THIS WAS OBVIOUSLY OFFICIAL POSITION WITHIN THE OUTFITS ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE.

I already posted information which shows us that after Humphreys death, the non-Itals already held an official spot within the structure and so Humphreys was replaced by Alex. Present on the meeting were Battaglia the boss, 3 high level made guys and some non-Itals. Later Alex received even HIGHER AND INFLUENTIAL POSITION than his previous position which in fact was OFFICIAL.

So I ask you again, what type of position Alex wanted to retire from and on top of that he wasnt allowed to do it by the Outfits top boss, except for very short time periods?

Back in those days lots of important guys were allowed to retire, both made and non-Ital, but not Alex. Why?

So the information regarding the non-Itals having official spot haven been substantiated lots of times.

Gus Alex had to be a member because they wouldn't let him retire? They wouldn't let him retire because he was a member? I don't understand the argument. Members commonly step back or retire from activity like you said so obviously that wasn't the reasoning.

Alex had an essential role in highly specific criminal operations and political racketeering. His specific knowledge, influence, and power wasn't something they could easily replace or replicate. Formal ranks in the org can easily be replaced but an associate with that kind of operating role is unique and losing him would have been a major blow to some of the Family's most important operations.

Also I never said that "The 1970s outfit had a substantially different approach to the formal status of non-Italians compared to the 1960s and 1980". I said that during the late 60s and early 70s lots of changes occurred because of huge pressure which was coming from the government and fear from informants, and that lots of important and smart leaders died or were imprisoned, meaning there werent too many smart guys left n the street and in the organization. Lets look at the situation shall we?!

So i believe you can see my point here, meaning Alex was "forced" to take one of these high level official positions (under Accardo) which previously belonged to some of the previous bosses and capos.

My understanding is that you were saying earlier the 1970s were different than the 1960s and therefore 1980s in that they allowed non-Italians to gain formal positions. It seems like that's what you're saying again at the end, as you said Alex took an "official position" in the 1970s that previously belonged to a boss or capo. Maybe he took on certain organized crime responsibilities or operations that belonged to them but we have Blasi saying explicitly that Alex couldn't hold an official rank but did take part in the leadership on a de facto level.

We know Chicago was in a rough spot and struggling to find leaders in the 1970s but Bompensiero was told by LaPorte that Ricca and Accardo were helping run the Family with some captains. Ricca died then in 1974 Al Pilotto told Bomp that Accardo and captains Lombardo, Pilotto, and Torello were running the Family. They didn't mention Alex and that doesn't discount his powerful role but it does indicate the members didn't see Alex as an official leader at the time.

[Guest]

Yes, Blasi was a made guy but not "high level member" or "high level source", meaning he was far from that especially when Giancana left the country. When Giancana left, Blasi wa0snt Battaglias assistant, nor he was Cerones or Aiuppas assistant. In fact Blasi almost got clipped after Giancana left. In plane words, he became nobody in the organization. Blasi never controlled a crew or operated some important racket.

By "high-level source", I mean he was a made member and Top Echelon informant. That's a high-level source and his crew or rackets aren't relevant, it's his inside knowledge of how the organization works. Member sources are crucial to understanding these details.

Here's what Blasi's report says in the 1970s:

blasi1.png

His take is consistent w/ Fratto and DeRose in the 1960s and it's a fair and accurate way of describing Alex. He was considered a leader but was not technically a member. I understand you make a distinction between membership in Cosa Nostra and a wider Chicago "brotherhood" but there's no evidence from reliable sources that the latter existed in any formal way beyond Chicago controlling powerful non-Italian elements in their wider organized crime empire.

Regarding Bompensiero.....this guy was a made member from a different family but was closely associated with Chicagos made guys for quite some time right? Sorry man but i rather go with someone who was with the Chicago guys since the days of Al Capone and belonged to their family for more than 50 years. Someone like Pierce who gave us complete and clear picture of the top leadership which also included Alex.

I understand the value of local sources, but Bompensiero was visiting Chicago as a made member since at least 1931 and had decades of relationships with high-ranking members who updated him when they met up during his cooperation in the 60s-70s.

With Chicago sources, we have multiple informants whose identities are confirmed and we've been discussing them here. It seems like you don't believe three of them for your own reasons.

As for Pierce, even at face value I don't see anything that confirms what you said. He was a valuable informant but also a non-member whose information discusses the organization mostly in broad and general terms. Did he ever say anything more concrete beyond vague descriptions like "leader", "advisor", etc? From what I've seen, they never explicitly asked him about nor did he explain what we're discussing here but if there's a report I missed please let me know.

Now, if Alex wanted to RETIRE, what position or job he was retiring from? Was it his job at some company or he wanted to retire from the Mob? Because if he was not considered a member of the organization, he couldve done it whenever he wanted right? But we all know that Accardo didnt approve this. So was the position official which Accardo needed Alex to be on it so much? On top of that Alex wanted to retire since the early 60s but he couldnt do it, because he was INSIDE the organization, controlled his own crew (previously assisted by Ferraro) and was very much needed by the bosses. So if Alex's position wasnt official, then why Accardo and Aiuppa had to find some powerful and experienced so he can quickly replace Alex? And thats why Cerone took it. So THIS WAS OBVIOUSLY OFFICIAL POSITION WITHIN THE OUTFITS ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE.

I already posted information which shows us that after Humphreys death, the non-Itals already held an official spot within the structure and so Humphreys was replaced by Alex. Present on the meeting were Battaglia the boss, 3 high level made guys and some non-Itals. Later Alex received even HIGHER AND INFLUENTIAL POSITION than his previous position which in fact was OFFICIAL.

So I ask you again, what type of position Alex wanted to retire from and on top of that he wasnt allowed to do it by the Outfits top boss, except for very short time periods?

Back in those days lots of important guys were allowed to retire, both made and non-Ital, but not Alex. Why?

So the information regarding the non-Itals having official spot haven been substantiated lots of times.

Gus Alex had to be a member because they wouldn't let him retire? They wouldn't let him retire because he was a member? I don't understand the argument. Members commonly step back or retire from activity like you said so obviously that wasn't the reasoning.

Alex had an essential role in highly specific criminal operations and political racketeering. His specific knowledge, influence, and power wasn't something they could easily replace or replicate. Formal ranks in the org can easily be replaced but an associate with that kind of operating role is unique and losing him would have been a major blow to some of the Family's most important operations.

Also I never said that "The 1970s outfit had a substantially different approach to the formal status of non-Italians compared to the 1960s and 1980". I said that during the late 60s and early 70s lots of changes occurred because of huge pressure which was coming from the government and fear from informants, and that lots of important and smart leaders died or were imprisoned, meaning there werent too many smart guys left n the street and in the organization. Lets look at the situation shall we?!

So i believe you can see my point here, meaning Alex was "forced" to take one of these high level official positions (under Accardo) which previously belonged to some of the previous bosses and capos.

My understanding is that you were saying earlier the 1970s were different than the 1960s and therefore 1980s in that they allowed non-Italians to gain formal positions. It seems like that's what you're saying again at the end, as you said Alex took an "official position" in the 1970s that previously belonged to a boss or capo. Maybe he took on certain organized crime responsibilities or operations that belonged to them but we have Blasi saying explicitly that Alex couldn't hold an official rank but did take part in the leadership on a de facto level.

We know Chicago was in a rough spot and struggling to find leaders in the 1970s but Bompensiero was told by LaPorte that Ricca and Accardo were helping run the Family with some captains. Ricca died then in 1974 Al Pilotto told Bomp that Accardo and captains Lombardo, Pilotto, and Torello were running the Family. They didn't mention Alex and that doesn't discount his powerful role but it does indicate the members didn't see Alex as an official leader at the time.

Again, I look as high level sources members such as Nicoletti or Gianola, and i even trust Blasi. (for my "own reasons" which is not true). I believe everything what Blasi or Gianola said regarding COSA NOSTRA affairs but after the late 60s neither one of them was involved in high level affairs which also involved Alex at the time. Blasi aldo said that Alex was a MEMBER of the leadership team. Thats the type of "member" im talking about lol.


Btw who was the informant for the file which i previously posted regard Cerone taking Alexs position???? I really dont remember right now....also who were or was the informant in the file regarding Accardos orders for Aiuppa and Alex? Or the file regarding narcotics which mentions Accado, Alex, Aiuppa and Nicoletti? Ive been out for some time so i really dont remember....

I also never said that Alex had to be a member and thats why he wasnt allowed to retire (pls stop putting words in my mouth bud lol) BUT instead I said that Alex took one of the official high level positions which previously occupied by some of the dead and imprisoned boss. Maybe Alex had an acting role but still he was on it.

Regarding the Accardo/Pilotto situation...Accardo didnt run the organization ONLY with those three capos who in fact were members of the BOD, and I can see you never included DiBella (even though he is not mentioned in the file but according to other sources DiBella was seen on daily basis with Accardo) who in turn was rep for the North Side crew by inheriting Prios position, who in turn was previously a member of the top admin with Ricca and Accardo. So Accardo ran the organization with Cerone and Aiuppa who in turn both were above the previously mentioned capos.

[Villain]

....sorry I forgot to log in lol

[B.]

No worries haha. Somehow I knew it was you.

The Blasi report saying Alex was a "member of the leadership team" isn't him saying there was a second type of membership, the report (which isn't Blasi's own words) is just saying Alex was part of the leadership team yet in relation to that he pointed out Alex was not a formal member. De facto / operational leader is the best description for it as acting is still a formal rank. It's amazing Alex was given so much authority as a non-member but it speaks to who he was.

Don't know who the informants were in the reports you mentioned but would be good to know since that greatly helps evaluate the value and perspective of the informant. The Accardo/Aiuppa/Alex one should be Pierce.

I didn't mention DiBella because Bompensiero didn't mention him in the reports. Though he said Ricca and Accardo were on the consiglio running things in 1969, Bomp didn't say if it was the full consiglio or just select captains helping Ricca/Accardo then just Accardo in the 1970s. I'd bet the consiglio was involved if it still existed in the same way in the 1970s unless certain people were tapped specifically to hold certain roles.

[Villain]

It seems we starting to agree at least 90% lol Alex had a high status in the Outfit as OC LEADER, not member of the national CN organization

It is important to note that during the early 70s, Pierce and Kruse were Alex's most loyal guys and all of his messages for Accardo, Aiuppa and Cerone went through them (some of Alex's messages also went through his brother Sam and also Pat Marcy). So Pierce was obviously able to hear these things directly from Alex himself, and maybe thats why Pierce gave us so much incredible details on what was going on with the top leadership during that time. (the 1970's photo with Accardo, Aiupppa, Cerone, Marcy, Alex and his brother Sam is priceless and explains a lot)

I have a question for you B....does the term "demoted" from a position in the Mob applies only for made members?

[motorfab]

Not that I want to answer instead of B., and maybe he will disagree, but the way I see things demoted is only for made members as we're talking about ranks in the mafia.

But like I said, just my opinion here.

[Villain]

Not that I want to answer instead of B., and maybe he will disagree, but the way I see things demoted is only for made members as we're talking about ranks in the mafia.

But like I said, just my opinion here.

Thanks Fab because according to some researchers, everyone who held official position within the family was usually or obviously made member and by being "DEMOTED" means that he lost his previous position and was either taken on a lower level or was taken to another area and was given another less lucrative operation. Thats how I also understand the "demoted" term, especially when its used by a made guy.

Now, lets look at this talk from 1963 between Marcy (made member) and D'Arco (another made member) regarding false rumors of Frank Ferraro and Gus Alex allegedly being 'DEMOTED"....




Again, this just one of the many files which shows us that Alex had a official position within the Outfit's structure.

Now, before we see this next file first I want the explain the situation of it and who probably started the rumors. Even though Marcy blames D"arco for the false rumor, and im not saying that Marcy was wrong but still theres another problem since during that same period Alex was also in partnership together with Frank Fratto (made member in the Willie Daddono crew and brother of Louie Fratto) in numerous gambling operations around DuPage County. According to some sources, Fratto wanted a bigger share in these illegal operations, because he was from Italian descent and Alex was not. This situation created some type of beef between Fratto and Alex and so Fratto and the Daddonos probably started the rumors and used Alex's non-Italian blood as main reason for he to become demoted.

As we can see, during those early days bosses like Accardo were even afraid if Alex's knew too much regarding the inner workings of the Italian element but still by the end of the day, he still received "green light" and continued to operate in the same manner, since years later or by the early 70s Accardo even took Alex next to him as an advisor and made him a member of the top leadership.

So sources say that by 1964 or the next year after the rumors spread, Alex allegedly made a deal with Willie Daddano and continued to receive his fair share from the proceedings from around DuPage County, while Daddono became capo of the area. Maybe something happened to Alex's status within the Outfit and was demoted in 1964, especially after Ferraro's death, BUT in 1965 we have Alex assisting Alderisio, who in turn was the Outfit's underboss at the time (same as with the late Ferraro) and few years later, Fratto's brother Louie labelled Alex as still being one of the leaders under the top admin of Ricca, Accardo, Cerone and Buccieri.....BUT thats not the point here, the main point is that there were rumors and probably huge chances for Alex to get DEMOTED from his OFFICIAL POSITION, which some guys though it shouldve been taken by an Italian. (the same thing I previously said regarding Alex taking a high level Italian official position during the early 70s because of the many losses of high level bosses and members)

So heres the document...




Again, I think this is the best evidence regarding Alex having a official position within the Chicago Outfit.

[motorfab]

I can't argue against all you wrote, because obviously you know Chicago much better than me (I don't even pretend to be very knowledgable about it).

But it's true that Chicago had a sort of special statut in CN history, so even if Alex can be consider as a key member of the Outfit, I'm not sure that the term "demoted" work strictly for the Cosa Nostra thing (I hope you see what I mean because I'm struggling a lot for explaining this haha)

Another example like this is Kansas City. An individual like Max Jaben was high ranking in the KC Outfit, but had no status in Cosa Nostra hierarchy so can't be strictly speaking demoted.

[Villain]

But it's true that Chicago had a sort of special statut in CN history, so even if Alex can be consider as a key member of the Outfit, I'm not sure that the term "demoted" work strictly for the Cosa Nostra thing (I hope you see what I mean because I'm struggling a lot for explaining this haha)

Another example like this is Kansas City. An individual like Max Jaben was high ranking in the KC Outfit, but had no status in Cosa Nostra hierarchy so can't be strictly speaking demoted.

Thanks and yeah I agree that he wasnt part pf CN but still he obviously held some type of positions which previously or later were held by Italians and the whole "demoting" situation gives us a clear answer that Alex had some type of high position, which in fact was official within the "Capone Mob" lol

Guys like Kruse, Patrick or Pierce were also labelled as high ranking guys in Chicago but Alex was different, meaning this guy probably breached some limits. Again Im not saying as a made member, but as OC leader within the Chicago Outfit with his official positions.

Btw heres something regarding the Fratto problem which I previously talked about and pls read Alex statement or should I say threat towards a made guy...which means the whole situation is legit....

[B.]

We 100% agree Gus Alex was an organized crime leader, it's just what that actually meant officially since the formal organization he worked for was a mafia Family. On an operational level, Alex was one of the most important racketeers in Chicago and I totally get why it can be confusing since on a practical level he was a leader but on an official level he wasn't.

I also don't make a distinction between the "Capone mob" and the Chicago outfit. Capone was "with" Morello/Genovese member Frankie Yale, involved with the Camorra, made into the Genovese Family, transferred to Chicago and became boss of an organization that included his own friends plus guys who had been in Cosa Nostra under previous bosses and some of their relatives continued to be members. He did have very diverse criminal relationships that crossed boundaries but we know Joe Aiello was extremely close to the Moran group to the point where they died fighting "his" war so I suspect they would have been seen the same way as some of the later non-Italians post-1931 if Aiello won. I know there are other examples of cross-ethnic relationships pre-1931 too.

--

With "demotion", a made member can't be demoted but they can be shelved which Nick Calabrese confirmed takes place in Chicago too and there's no reason to think being shelved was new at the time as it even goes back to Sicily ("posato").

With the wiretap, since we don't have any reason to think Frank Ferraro was demoted as underboss before he died and they referred to both Ferraro and Alex being "demoted", we can infer it referred to a rumor about their operational role / activities. I don't see anything in that conversation that suggests Alex had an official position he was thought to be demoted from. The terminology is very general.

What do you think about Fosco's belief that Romie Nappi had replaced Gus Alex as the overseer of political and labor racketeering in the early 1970s? Even though Ralph Pierce said Alex was helping the leadership run things in the 1970s, in 1972 Pierce's FBI interview said Alex had "very little interest here in Chicago" in relation to "organized crime" and "therefore needs no organization to look after his interests in Chicago." Pierce is also the one who said Alex was tapped to assist/advise the formal leadership but Pierce felt Alex was pretty far removed from the actual activities by 1972 and Fosco's belief about Nappi fits that.

[Villain]

Thanks for the civilized talk B because we agree again (some people must learn to exclude all personal feelings when talking about this subject), although I still have some minor questions regarding the difference between "Official position within the syndicate" and "Cosa Nostra position or membership in that same syndicate".

Regarding Capone....back in the days I dont remember where I read this but it was something like Capone winning the war in Chicago by making partnership with every crew (both Italian and non-Italian) which was unorganized and was in trouble with Capones enemies, and I dont know if you remember my project regarding Chicago's syndicates during the pre-Prohibition era (which can be found in the articles section) and you will see many Italian and non-Italian gangs who operated their rackets on their own and thats why they often had conflicts with the Mafia, Irish syndicates or other more organized groups. So I agree that it was Capone's "fault" who took most of this gangs and placed them on his "round table", thus making the Capone Mob/Chicago Outfit a very diverse criminal organization which continued to operate like that during the following decades.

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Btw, you know English is not my birth or first language but I always thought there was a huge difference between being "shelved" and being "demoted". Lets look at this....

Shelved - decide not to proceed with (a project or plan), either temporarily or permanently. <----- meaning if a member was shelved, he wasnt able to receive income from all illegal activities which he was previously involved or controlled, or in plane words "a mafia member is no longer active and loses his power within the organization."

Demoted - move (someone) to a lower position or rank, usually as a punishment <----- meaning a Mafia "member" was taken on a lower position within the criminal structure BUT still received illegal income and controlled his own ops for the organization.

So we are looking at a wiretapped convo between two made members of the Chicago Outfit, meaning we have first hand info. And these guys talk about false rumor which was spread by their enemies that both Ferraro and Alex were about to get demoted by the top admin. This still raises lots of questions regarding Alex position, on whether it was official or not. When Ferraro (the underboss) died, Alex had the same "position" with both Battaglia (while being underboss for Giancana) and later with Alderisio (while being underboss for Battaglia).

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Regarding Nappi....yes, he was a member of the connection guys, although Im not 100% sure but I think he belonged to the West Side group, while Marcy, Roti, D'Arco, Ferraro and Alex belonged to the South Side squad.

Im not saying Fosco was wrong, although I have seen one file regarding Marcy taking over the connection guys with Alex still being the boss of the Loop and whole South Side. Maybe Nappi was acting for Marcy and Alex during certain time periods (out of various reasons) but by the late 1980s we still have Marcy being leader of the connection guys, meaning it wasnt Nappi or someone else. (also I dont remember when Nappi died). I also strongly believe that when Ricca died in 72, Nappi's protection was gone.

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As for Alex.....yes, its true that by the early or mid 70s Alex had very little interest in Chicago in relation to organized crime activities and therefore needed no organization to look after his interests, because his GREATES DESIRE was to RETIRE FROM THE MOB but the TOP BOSS Accardo NEVER APPROVED THAT.

You see because of his desire to retire, during that time Alex completely relinquished his old crew and he also gave most of his districts to capos from other areas, especially the Buccieri-Torello crew, but he never relinquished his income from the Lenny Patrick crew and also his interests in the First Ward (payoffs or corruption money), according to information from the 1980's (dont forget Patrick was one of the rare informants who labelled DiFronzo as the #2 guy) and so Patrick said that he kicked up to Alex and the rest of the bosses (Carlisi, DiFronzo, Marcello), separately. In fact, Patrick was in partnership operation with the Italian bosses but he had to give percentage to Alex because he was his boss.

[Villain]

....in addition to my previous post...







....it seems members can be "DEMOTED"...

[B.]

A rank-and-file member can't be demoted in the org, they can only be shelved (membership unrecognized, members not allowed to do business with them, activities taken away) or killed. Members can be demoted within the org but only if they have a rank / title. If a guy is forced to leave a certain business or position of operational authority you could call it a "demotion" but it's not the same as being formally demoted.

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I avoid the "corporation = "mafia" comparisons, but this might be a good way of understanding it...

- I worked for a company that had employees (members) who officially worked for the company and there was a hierarchy (admin / captains) within that. At all levels of the company there were also independent contractors (associates) and this ranged from people who did small freelance tasks all the way up to programmers and consultants who were "like" employees but technically they weren't true employees of the company even though they had to be available during the same hours and were obligated to us.

- Some of the essential contractors were even included on the company website, part of internal company discussions, operational decision-making etc. However even the top contractors weren't subject to the same protocol and guidelines as the official employees even though some of them were truly more important to the business than we were. Officially they were assigned to work for/with certain people and had to put anything they did on record with an employee but for certain ones this was just a formality.

- These contractors of course reported to different people. Some of them worked directly with the executives, others with middle management or ordinary employees depending on what part of the company's operations they were involved with. There was one guy however who was a tech consultant that only answered to the CEO and the CEO did whatever this guy "advised" and even on the rare occasion that the CEO didn't do it, it at least involved a very in-depth meeting where the contractor's advice was taken seriously.

- My immediate boss was part of the Executive Team but she knew she had way less say than this guy in terms of operational strategy even though officially she was part of the company's top leadership and had certain duties specific to official employees that this guy didn't have. This contractor sat in on many Executive Team meetings (consiglio) and had a strong voice in these meetings when it pertained to operating strategy but if the Executive Team met about issues specific to the office or in-house matters he wasn't involved. He had no involvement in hiring or firing employees for example but if we didn't do what he said you almost certainly would have been on the carpet with the official executives and looking for a new job.

- This contractor would often contact us employees directly telling us to do something and even though he wasn't our boss or even an official employee we understood he was authorized by the CEO to do that and had his blessing. I did things for him countless times and he never had to clear it with my immediate boss nor did the CEO have to tell me it was top priority, I just understood he was "with" the CEO and if I didn't do what this contractor advised it would be a problem for me within the company and be seen as detrimental to our success. Officially he wasn't an executive but operationally he absolutely had that level of authority and privilege.

- All of us knew he had serious power within the company before, during, and after my time there yet he himself was not technically an employee of the company. He 100% made more money and had more influence than most of the official employees. The CEO saw it as a mutually beneficial relationship and felt the company depended on him. If this guy decided to leave he couldn't have been easily replaced.

- He also had his own independent people who worked for him and had no direct interaction with our staff but by working for him they were in effect doing work for our company.

So was this guy an official executive? He wasn't. Did he have a "position" in our company? Yep, on a practical level he was a de facto executive who had more operational influence than most/all official employees except the CEO. Could he have been demoted? As a contractor not officially, but there were times where the CEO talked about limiting his involvement which would have been like a demotion. They could have cancelled his contract (whacked him) too but no way was the CEO going to do that. In contrast, we had contractors who did small tasks and had no influence who were easily replaced -- it meant nothing to let them go if it didn't work out.

If I were a CI talking to the FBI I would have described him exactly the same way people like Fratto, DeRose, and Blasi described Gus Alex.

[B.]

I'm sure nobody cares but other comparisons:

- Nobody ever said "he's an independent contractor (associate) so he doesn't matter". His role was never referred to by anything other than his name. I don't even know what sort of title/terms he used to market his contracting services, we just knew what his expertise was and that he represented the CEO's interests.

- Other contractors showed a ton of deference to the official employees because their involvement was more "at will" and they wanted to be respectful and agreeable to keep getting work, etc. This guy was cordial with us but no more than was necessary. Nobody even liked him and I don't know what the CEO personally thought of him but because of their relationship it didn't matter what we thought.

- When he contacted us we were always nervous. We had to immediately prioritize whatever he wanted from us and if we didn't do it or did it wrong it meant he could tell the CEO and regardless of our official status as employees we'd be fucked. We often joked he was the real mastermind of the company and more powerful than the CEO.

So yeah my boring life isn't a perfect comparison to the Chicago outfit but similar dynamics play out in organizations of any kind, this just happens to be the mafia we're discussing and it uses a similar system of official and de facto roles for its purposes. Big difference is an associate of the Chicago outfit wasn't going to be able to find another org to contract with.