Were Any Sitdowns Ever Caught on Tape?

[Villain]

During the mid 60s there was a sitdown between Outfit capo Fiore Buccieri and Mike Patrick, the older brother of Outfit crew boss Lenny Patrick who in turn answered to Gus Alex.

The sit down occurred in a Cicero social and athletic club which served as a front for Buccieri’s juice operations. Accrording to the feds, they had trouble in listening to the whole convo because of the huge noise but they managed to catch few words.

During the exchange of words, Buccieri allegedly shouted “If you don’t want to give us half of your juice business, we’ll take it all eventually”. After the noise died down, Mike Patrick came out shaking hands with Buccieri and looked like they had come to some type of agreement.

The problem was that some of Patrick’s men took over some of the operations in North/West area in which Buccieri was the overlord of the juice racket. At first Patrick’s men frequented a cigar store and other establishments in Buccieri’s territory and made bookmaking loans across jurisdictional lines. Later Buccieri learned of their presence and made a huge problem and so he demanded a cut of the Patrick brothers’ gross profits from usurious loans to patrons of their gambling operations on his territory.

Also the sitdown between Alderisio and Buccieris guy Joe Ferriola. The sitdown was allegedly arranged in restaurant on Chicago’s North Side between the two factions and during the meeting, Alderisio allegedly lost his nerves and threatened at Ferriola by yelling “I’m going to tear you apart, limb by limb!”

Thanks for the post Villain and it’s great to see you posting again. You’ve provided a wealth of knowledge on the Outfit!

I had a quick question for you - was Buccieri representing Mike Patrick or was he on the other side of the table? If he was on the other side, who was the made guy representing Mike Patrick versus Buccieri?

Thanks for the kind words buddy and you're welcome.

The so-called Lenny Patrick crew answered to Gus Alex from the late 50s until the early 90s. Previously Lenny Patrick and Dave Yaras were closely connected to Jake Guzik and possibly Teets Battaglia, but during the late 50s Giancana told Patrick that from that point on he will report to Alex only. The Patricks previously operated around the Lawndale area, and later transferred to Rogers Park on the North Side, in partnership with Ross Prio and Giancana, although he still sent profits to Alex.

Buccieri headed a different crew and so he sat on the other side of the table. Mike Patrick shouldve been represented by either his brother Lenny or Alex but we can see that Mike was alone. Sometimes Mike acted as his brother's voice but it still sounds weird that a low level Outfit non-Ital being present on a sitdown with a high level capo such as Buccieri.

Maybe it was because Mike headed the so-called "invasion" on some of Buccieris operations and areas and so he was left on his own to solve the problem, although i highly doubt that Mike didnt have the "ok" at least from his brother. During the 50s and 60s the Patricks were quite known for invading other members areas, since all of them were killers with high body counts and were also good earners.

It wasnt unusual in the Outfit for one non-Italian to have a sitdown with high level member, like also the one between Joe Epstein and Phil Alderisio with Giancana as mediator, and believe it or not Epstein won the sitdown.

[PolackTony]

During the mid 60s there was a sitdown between Outfit capo Fiore Buccieri and Mike Patrick, the older brother of Outfit crew boss Lenny Patrick who in turn answered to Gus Alex.

The sit down occurred in a Cicero social and athletic club which served as a front for Buccieri’s juice operations. Accrording to the feds, they had trouble in listening to the whole convo because of the huge noise but they managed to catch few words.

During the exchange of words, Buccieri allegedly shouted “If you don’t want to give us half of your juice business, we’ll take it all eventually”. After the noise died down, Mike Patrick came out shaking hands with Buccieri and looked like they had come to some type of agreement.

The problem was that some of Patrick’s men took over some of the operations in North/West area in which Buccieri was the overlord of the juice racket. At first Patrick’s men frequented a cigar store and other establishments in Buccieri’s territory and made bookmaking loans across jurisdictional lines. Later Buccieri learned of their presence and made a huge problem and so he demanded a cut of the Patrick brothers’ gross profits from usurious loans to patrons of their gambling operations on his territory.

Also the sitdown between Alderisio and Buccieris guy Joe Ferriola. The sitdown was allegedly arranged in restaurant on Chicago’s North Side between the two factions and during the meeting, Alderisio allegedly lost his nerves and threatened at Ferriola by yelling “I’m going to tear you apart, limb by limb!”

Thanks for the post Villain and it’s great to see you posting again. You’ve provided a wealth of knowledge on the Outfit!

I had a quick question for you - was Buccieri representing Mike Patrick or was he on the other side of the table? If he was on the other side, who was the made guy representing Mike Patrick versus Buccieri?

FWIW, the Buccieri meeting with Myron Patrick was not caught on wiretap, at least not according to the actual source. This event was reported in the Chicago Tribune in 1964 as having been witnessed by an “undercover man” with the Chicago PD. The Patricks controlled loan sharking in the (then) Jewish neighborhood of North Lawndale as well as the Northside Jewish areas. The CPD told the Tribune that a Jewish loan shark named “Ruby the Mule” had been thought to be giving out loans in one of Buccieri’s juice territories and that Buccieri found out and “summoned” Patrick in to tell him that he was demanding a cut of Patrick’s juice operation. An FBI report reproduced the Tribune article verbatim but did not mention anything further and there was nothing about a wiretap ( https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... %20Patrick).

Nothing would indicate that this was anything like an LCN sitdown (Myron Patrick was, obviously, not a member and the CPD reported the incident as him being forced to hand over a cut of his rackets to Buccieri).

[Villain]

During the mid 60s there was a sitdown between Outfit capo Fiore Buccieri and Mike Patrick, the older brother of Outfit crew boss Lenny Patrick who in turn answered to Gus Alex.

The sit down occurred in a Cicero social and athletic club which served as a front for Buccieri’s juice operations. Accrording to the feds, they had trouble in listening to the whole convo because of the huge noise but they managed to catch few words.

During the exchange of words, Buccieri allegedly shouted “If you don’t want to give us half of your juice business, we’ll take it all eventually”. After the noise died down, Mike Patrick came out shaking hands with Buccieri and looked like they had come to some type of agreement.

The problem was that some of Patrick’s men took over some of the operations in North/West area in which Buccieri was the overlord of the juice racket. At first Patrick’s men frequented a cigar store and other establishments in Buccieri’s territory and made bookmaking loans across jurisdictional lines. Later Buccieri learned of their presence and made a huge problem and so he demanded a cut of the Patrick brothers’ gross profits from usurious loans to patrons of their gambling operations on his territory.

Also the sitdown between Alderisio and Buccieris guy Joe Ferriola. The sitdown was allegedly arranged in restaurant on Chicago’s North Side between the two factions and during the meeting, Alderisio allegedly lost his nerves and threatened at Ferriola by yelling “I’m going to tear you apart, limb by limb!”

Thanks for the post Villain and it’s great to see you posting again. You’ve provided a wealth of knowledge on the Outfit!

I had a quick question for you - was Buccieri representing Mike Patrick or was he on the other side of the table? If he was on the other side, who was the made guy representing Mike Patrick versus Buccieri?

FWIW, the Buccieri meeting with Myron Patrick was not caught on wiretap, at least not according to the actual source. This event was reported in the Chicago Tribune in 1964 as having been witnessed by an “undercover man” with the Chicago PD. The Patricks controlled loan sharking in the (then) Jewish neighborhood of North Lawndale as well as the Northside Jewish areas. The CPD told the Tribune that a Jewish loan shark named “Ruby the Mule” had been thought to be giving out loans in one of Buccieri’s juice territories and that Buccieri found out and “summoned” Patrick in to tell him that he was demanding a cut of Patrick’s juice operation. An FBI report reproduced the Tribune article verbatim but did not mention anything further and there was nothing about a wiretap ( https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... %20Patrick).

Nothing would indicate that this was anything like an LCN sitdown (Myron Patrick was, obviously, not a member and the CPD reported the incident as him being forced to hand over a cut of his rackets to Buccieri).

You know who Ruby the mule was? I know And yeah it was a sitdown because they invaded Buccieris area without his permission. LCN sitdown? Really? This is the Outfit we are talking about....maybe i was wrong abput the wiretap i dunno it seems it was an informant

[Villain]

And pls dont make a whole movie scipt about it lol

[NorthBuffalo]

Ruby Wulfar was the Mule correct? Grew up in Lawndale with the Patricks?

[PolackTony]

During the mid 60s there was a sitdown between Outfit capo Fiore Buccieri and Mike Patrick, the older brother of Outfit crew boss Lenny Patrick who in turn answered to Gus Alex.

The sit down occurred in a Cicero social and athletic club which served as a front for Buccieri’s juice operations. Accrording to the feds, they had trouble in listening to the whole convo because of the huge noise but they managed to catch few words.

During the exchange of words, Buccieri allegedly shouted “If you don’t want to give us half of your juice business, we’ll take it all eventually”. After the noise died down, Mike Patrick came out shaking hands with Buccieri and looked like they had come to some type of agreement.

The problem was that some of Patrick’s men took over some of the operations in North/West area in which Buccieri was the overlord of the juice racket. At first Patrick’s men frequented a cigar store and other establishments in Buccieri’s territory and made bookmaking loans across jurisdictional lines. Later Buccieri learned of their presence and made a huge problem and so he demanded a cut of the Patrick brothers’ gross profits from usurious loans to patrons of their gambling operations on his territory.

Also the sitdown between Alderisio and Buccieris guy Joe Ferriola. The sitdown was allegedly arranged in restaurant on Chicago’s North Side between the two factions and during the meeting, Alderisio allegedly lost his nerves and threatened at Ferriola by yelling “I’m going to tear you apart, limb by limb!”

Thanks for the post Villain and it’s great to see you posting again. You’ve provided a wealth of knowledge on the Outfit!

I had a quick question for you - was Buccieri representing Mike Patrick or was he on the other side of the table? If he was on the other side, who was the made guy representing Mike Patrick versus Buccieri?

FWIW, the Buccieri meeting with Myron Patrick was not caught on wiretap, at least not according to the actual source. This event was reported in the Chicago Tribune in 1964 as having been witnessed by an “undercover man” with the Chicago PD. The Patricks controlled loan sharking in the (then) Jewish neighborhood of North Lawndale as well as the Northside Jewish areas. The CPD told the Tribune that a Jewish loan shark named “Ruby the Mule” had been thought to be giving out loans in one of Buccieri’s juice territories and that Buccieri found out and “summoned” Patrick in to tell him that he was demanding a cut of Patrick’s juice operation. An FBI report reproduced the Tribune article verbatim but did not mention anything further and there was nothing about a wiretap ( https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... %20Patrick).

Nothing would indicate that this was anything like an LCN sitdown (Myron Patrick was, obviously, not a member and the CPD reported the incident as him being forced to hand over a cut of his rackets to Buccieri).

You know who Ruby the mule was? I know And yeah it was a sitdown because they invaded Buccieris area without his permission. LCN sitdown? Really? This is the Outfit we are talking about....maybe i was wrong abput the wiretap i dunno it seems it was an informant

The actual source, and only source so far as I can tell, for this event was the CPD who reported this to the Tribune. And it was reported as Myron Patrick (a loan shark who was not a member) being “summoned” by Buccieri, with Buccieri “demanding tribute” from him, and Patrick having “no choice” but to come to an agreement to give Buccieri a cut of his operations. This is what was reported; if you have another source that reported the incident differently, feel free to post it.

Also, note that the article does not actually state that anyone was “invading” anyone’s territory, just that “Ruby The Mule” (identified elsewhere by informants as Jewish loanshark Ruby Wolfar) had been seen going to a cigar store in one of Buccieri’s territories, and there was the “suspicion” that he was giving out loans. They weren’t storming the beach at Normandy here.

And, yeah. We’re talking about the Chicago “outfit”, the Chicago LCN Family (you know, like how there was the Pittsburgh “outfit”, the Cleveland “outfit”, the Detroit “outfit”, the Milwaukee “outfit” etc etc). Really.

[Villain]

Ruby Wulfar was the Mule correct? Grew up in Lawndale with the Patricks?

Thats him and they were one quite large crew.

Check out my old Lenny Patrick article...

https://theblackhand.club/forum/viewtop ... f=30&t=624

[Villain]

During the mid 60s there was a sitdown between Outfit capo Fiore Buccieri and Mike Patrick, the older brother of Outfit crew boss Lenny Patrick who in turn answered to Gus Alex.

The sit down occurred in a Cicero social and athletic club which served as a front for Buccieri’s juice operations. Accrording to the feds, they had trouble in listening to the whole convo because of the huge noise but they managed to catch few words.

During the exchange of words, Buccieri allegedly shouted “If you don’t want to give us half of your juice business, we’ll take it all eventually”. After the noise died down, Mike Patrick came out shaking hands with Buccieri and looked like they had come to some type of agreement.

The problem was that some of Patrick’s men took over some of the operations in North/West area in which Buccieri was the overlord of the juice racket. At first Patrick’s men frequented a cigar store and other establishments in Buccieri’s territory and made bookmaking loans across jurisdictional lines. Later Buccieri learned of their presence and made a huge problem and so he demanded a cut of the Patrick brothers’ gross profits from usurious loans to patrons of their gambling operations on his territory.

Also the sitdown between Alderisio and Buccieris guy Joe Ferriola. The sitdown was allegedly arranged in restaurant on Chicago’s North Side between the two factions and during the meeting, Alderisio allegedly lost his nerves and threatened at Ferriola by yelling “I’m going to tear you apart, limb by limb!”

Thanks for the post Villain and it’s great to see you posting again. You’ve provided a wealth of knowledge on the Outfit!

I had a quick question for you - was Buccieri representing Mike Patrick or was he on the other side of the table? If he was on the other side, who was the made guy representing Mike Patrick versus Buccieri?

FWIW, the Buccieri meeting with Myron Patrick was not caught on wiretap, at least not according to the actual source. This event was reported in the Chicago Tribune in 1964 as having been witnessed by an “undercover man” with the Chicago PD. The Patricks controlled loan sharking in the (then) Jewish neighborhood of North Lawndale as well as the Northside Jewish areas. The CPD told the Tribune that a Jewish loan shark named “Ruby the Mule” had been thought to be giving out loans in one of Buccieri’s juice territories and that Buccieri found out and “summoned” Patrick in to tell him that he was demanding a cut of Patrick’s juice operation. An FBI report reproduced the Tribune article verbatim but did not mention anything further and there was nothing about a wiretap ( https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... %20Patrick).

Nothing would indicate that this was anything like an LCN sitdown (Myron Patrick was, obviously, not a member and the CPD reported the incident as him being forced to hand over a cut of his rackets to Buccieri).

shark who was not a member) being “summoned” by Buccieri, with Buccieri “demanding tribute” from him, and Patrick having “no choice” but to come to an agreement to give Buccieri a cut of his operations. This is what was reported; if you have another source that reported the incident differently, feel free to post it.

Damn...no choice...it seems you were there and knew these guys. Thanks bud

[Villain]

Hey Polish guy...whats your opinion regarding this situation....

When Patrick’s former associates like Polsky and Friedman decided to rob Outfit joints, they moved their operations also into the area of Broadway, Diversey and Belmont. That territory was operated by Rocco Fischetti and Murray Humphries. Most of the robbers were murdered but some of the old guys thought that Patrick was behind some of the robberies because his partner Eddie Murphy took control of some their joints. So Jack Humphreys, with the backing from his brother Murray and the Fischetti brothers, wanted a small piece of the territory that Patrick, Yaras, Block and Murphy controlled. There was some bickering between these two factions and the gambling balance of power has been upset and so was the boss Tony Accardo. A sit down was arranged between Murray Humphries and Patrick. Humphries told Patrick that allegedly he didn’t care about his brothers operations so they should take care of the problem between themselves. Rumours are that Patrick advised Murphy to give up some of his operations, but Murphy refused. Humphries was a fox so Patrick knew that Murphy became a marked man and when you became a marked man in the mob, usually the guys close to you are the ones that are going to put a bullet in your head. So the top guys pressured Patrick to take care of the problem. On March 21, 1950 Murphy had been shot three times in the back of the head and his body was found by a farmer hanging over a wire fence on a deserted roadside near Hartsdale, Indiana. In Murphy’s pocket, the cops found a .38 revolver, which was fully loaded. Later there was another sit down, chaired by Accardo, between Patrick and Fischetti and the conflict was squashed.

[Villain]

^^^^^ This is the Outfit, not NY

[PolackTony]

Hey Polish guy...whats your opinion regarding this situation....

When Patrick’s former associates like Polsky and Friedman decided to rob Outfit joints, they moved their operations also into the area of Broadway, Diversey and Belmont. That territory was operated by Rocco Fischetti and Murray Humphries. Most of the robbers were murdered but some of the old guys thought that Patrick was behind some of the robberies because his partner Eddie Murphy took control of some their joints. So Jack Humphreys, with the backing from his brother Murray and the Fischetti brothers, wanted a small piece of the territory that Patrick, Yaras, Block and Murphy controlled. There was some bickering between these two factions and the gambling balance of power has been upset and so was the boss Tony Accardo. A sit down was arranged between Murray Humphries and Patrick. Humphries told Patrick that allegedly he didn’t care about his brothers operations so they should take care of the problem between themselves. Rumours are that Patrick advised Murphy to give up some of his operations, but Murphy refused. Humphries was a fox so Patrick knew that Murphy became a marked man and when you became a marked man in the mob, usually the guys close to you are the ones that are going to put a bullet in your head. So the top guys pressured Patrick to take care of the problem. On March 21, 1950 Murphy had been shot three times in the back of the head and his body was found by a farmer hanging over a wire fence on a deserted roadside near Hartsdale, Indiana. In Murphy’s pocket, the cops found a .38 revolver, which was fully loaded. Later there was another sit down, chaired by Accardo, between Patrick and Fischetti and the conflict was squashed.

Hey Macedonian guy.

We just saw how you got your alleged Buccieri/Myron Patrick “wiretap” story wrong. This was a thread where someone was asking about sit downs caught on wiretap, and I just so happened to have known that your story was not factual, as I’m familiar with the source. I pointed this out, and posted the source to show that I’m not just doing this for the sake of arguing, but rather to ensure that the record isn’t corrupted with errors. If I hadn’t, this would’ve been passed off as “fact” (as I doubt that anyone else here is in the position to have recognized that it was false), when it was actually distorted by misrepresentation of the evidence and outright confabulation (and then, to top it off, you accuse me of writing “movie scripts” lol).

And now you expect me to respond to another one of your claims about an alleged event, this one irrelevant to the thread as you’re not even saying there was a wiretap involved. Did you misrepresent any of your sources here? I don’t have the time or the desire to have to track down where you got all of that from and ensure that it actually says what you says it says, before I can even respond. I’d have to hire a full time fact checker. Not to mention, the last time I did that you responded by flipping out and hurling a string of childish insults at me (which were, at least, pretty funny).

Yeah, no. I’m cool. Unless it’s directly relevant to the thread topic.

[Villain]

Hey Polish guy...whats your opinion regarding this situation....

When Patrick’s former associates like Polsky and Friedman decided to rob Outfit joints, they moved their operations also into the area of Broadway, Diversey and Belmont. That territory was operated by Rocco Fischetti and Murray Humphries. Most of the robbers were murdered but some of the old guys thought that Patrick was behind some of the robberies because his partner Eddie Murphy took control of some their joints. So Jack Humphreys, with the backing from his brother Murray and the Fischetti brothers, wanted a small piece of the territory that Patrick, Yaras, Block and Murphy controlled. There was some bickering between these two factions and the gambling balance of power has been upset and so was the boss Tony Accardo. A sit down was arranged between Murray Humphries and Patrick. Humphries told Patrick that allegedly he didn’t care about his brothers operations so they should take care of the problem between themselves. Rumours are that Patrick advised Murphy to give up some of his operations, but Murphy refused. Humphries was a fox so Patrick knew that Murphy became a marked man and when you became a marked man in the mob, usually the guys close to you are the ones that are going to put a bullet in your head. So the top guys pressured Patrick to take care of the problem. On March 21, 1950 Murphy had been shot three times in the back of the head and his body was found by a farmer hanging over a wire fence on a deserted roadside near Hartsdale, Indiana. In Murphy’s pocket, the cops found a .38 revolver, which was fully loaded. Later there was another sit down, chaired by Accardo, between Patrick and Fischetti and the conflict was squashed.

Hey Macedonian guy.

We just saw how you got your alleged Buccieri/Myron Patrick “wiretap” story wrong. This was a thread where someone was asking about sit downs caught on wiretap, and I just so happened to have known that your story was not factual, as I’m familiar with the source. I pointed this out, and posted the source to show that I’m not just doing this for the sake of arguing, but rather to ensure that the record isn’t corrupted with errors. If I hadn’t, this would’ve been passed off as “fact” (as I doubt that anyone else here is in the position to have recognized that it was false), when it was actually distorted by misrepresentation of the evidence and outright confabulation (and then, to top it off, you accuse me of writing “movie scripts” lol).

And now you expect me to respond to another one of your claims about an alleged event, this one irrelevant to the thread as you’re not even saying there was a wiretap involved. Did you misrepresent any of your sources here? I don’t have the time or the desire to have to track down where you got all of that from and ensure that it actually says what you says it says, before I can even respond. I’d have to hire a full time fact checker. Not to mention, the last time I did that you responded by flipping out and hurling a string of childish insults at me (which were, at least, pretty funny).

Yeah, no. I’m cool. Unless it’s directly relevant to the thread topic.

Damn

[Villain]

Sooooo....you dont know shit regarding the Humphreys/Patrick/Fischetti situation? You are learning fast but you are still far from it kid

[Villain]

If i had a chance to talk to you face to face....believe me bud I wouldve done it right away but i obviously cant lol

Whats your problem with me? Lost of people are sending me messages and are asking me whats the problem and thats why Ive decided to write to you via pm but still no answer.

Most of my years old articles are obviously outdated and I never present action situations as facts but instead sometimes I write from the top of my head and its good at least that I remember these situations lol and obviously its your job to find out the details since youre a younger member around here and a good one too, but these attacks?

Again why so serious and what do you have against me? I really cant see the problem or the mistake which I allegedly did and so speak like a man....whats the problem?

[PolackTony]

If i had a chance to talk to you face to face....believe me bud I wouldve done it right away but i obviously cant lol

Whats your problem with me? Lost of people are sending me messages and are asking me whats the problem and thats why Ive decided to write to you via pm but still no answer.

Most of my years old articles are obviously outdated and I never present action situations as facts but instead sometimes I write from the top of my head and its good at least that I remember these situations lol and obviously its your job to find out the details since youre a younger member around here and a good one too, but these attacks?

Again why so serious and what do you have against me? I really cant see the problem or the mistake which I allegedly did and so speak like a man....whats the problem?

Villain, this is the exact same text that you just now sent me in a PM, with the subject heading “Hey Lady…”, which I can only interpret as an attempt to bait me into reacting. As I already noted, when I engaged with your claims recently on another thread, you responded by flipping out and calling me a bunch of 8th Grade-level insults. And now you’re asking me what my “problem” is.

If I saw a claim by anyone else that I knew to be false and I was in the position to demonstrate this, I’d do the same as I did above. I’d like to think that most of us can disagree or criticize each other as “colleagues”, without resorting to name calling or baiting, even if we we have strong disagreements.

Please don’t send me anymore PMs.