There's been a lot of discussions about the Capone gang/the Outfit over the years and something discussed about in another thread "Sciascia and Montagna" looking at the diversity of the Rizzuto's to LCN to Chicago to traditional Sicilian CN about who was a powerhouse in these organizations. This discussion made me wonder how all these other LCN cities that took a backseat or followed Chicago felt? For instance, I wonder if any of these other cities had doubts or hidden animosity towards Chicago? I'm assuming these cities were more LCN then Chicago-like? Maybe I'm wrong in thinking that because the mid-west/west is just a lot different then the Northeast in general, so maybe everything was more tolerable out there and oaky being represented by Chicago. Or maybe it helped that Chicago had close ties to the Genovese's? I suppose my point is I wonder if there was tensions with these other cities that Chicago was not traditional LCN like the NE?
Of course, for how big and powerful the outfit was, sometimes one just has to learn how to eat crow and like it no matter what...
The Outfit, Chicago vs Traditional LCN
Moderator: Capos
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Angelo Santino
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Re: The Outfit, Chicago vs Traditional LCN
I don't believe so. Each city has it's own history and a mafia organization's survival depends on its ability to adapt to its surroundings. If you're thinking along the lines of Gotti forcing the DeCav's to remake everyone with a gun and knife, that was more of a show of power. I don't think NY would have tried that with Chicago. Who knows though.rayray wrote:There's been a lot of discussions about the Capone gang/the Outfit over the years and something discussed about in another thread "Sciascia and Montagna" looking at the diversity of the Rizzuto's to LCN to Chicago to traditional Sicilian CN about who was a powerhouse in these organizations. This discussion made me wonder how all these other LCN cities that took a backseat or followed Chicago felt? For instance, I wonder if any of these other cities had doubts or hidden animosity towards Chicago? I'm assuming these cities were more LCN then Chicago-like? Maybe I'm wrong in thinking that because the mid-west/west is just a lot different then the Northeast in general, so maybe everything was more tolerable out there and oaky being represented by Chicago. Or maybe it helped that Chicago had close ties to the Genovese's? I suppose my point is I wonder if there was tensions with these other cities that Chicago was not traditional LCN like the NE?
Of course, for how big and powerful the outfit was, sometimes one just has to learn how to eat crow and like it no matter what...
Re: The Outfit, Chicago vs Traditional LCN
Well now that you said that, and maybe I'm wrong because I'm going from memory but I vaguely remember reading that Masseria formally made Capone? Maybe it was just a post I read on the old forum, I tried searching for the info but couldn't find anything about it.
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Angelo Santino
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Re: The Outfit, Chicago vs Traditional LCN
That's correct. According to Gentile, he was summoned to New York and made a member by Masseria who then immediately made him a capodecina "of Chicago but answerable to the family in NY," and Bonanno claims that Masseria offered Capone the place as Head if he could remove Aiello. Both sources claim Capone and Maranzano were amicable towards each other.
This is disputed by local Chicago historians who argue that Capone didn't need any "mafia" badge to be who he was. Yes and No. Capone headed an organization that superseded the traditional North Side Mafia in both size and money. However they relied on the traditional Sicilian Mafia and the political ties they maintained. This isn't black and white, both groups had corrupt politicians but the Sicilians were better placed and commanded the Unione Siciliana, which was a Sicilian political/work union.
Capone getting made was like getting a Mafia Doctorate. It was a significant stature and expanded his already wide national contacts. People forget, Capone and the Sicilians were friendly until they weren't. Before this war, they mingled, went to social occasions and knew each other personally. But in the wide and vast criminal arena that is Chicago, the Sicilian Mafia was influential but just another factor. Capone was able to ride above all of that, conquer the beast that was the Chicago underworld (not just the Italian underworld) and remake it to what he say fit. He came up under Yale, and then allied with Torrio. He learned from some pretty significant figures. What exactly Capone did is contested. (Antiliar has some good opinions he may or may not want to share). But there is a missing 30 years of conclusive intel, it only becomes more clearer in 1960. And then begs the question, were the Giancana years different from the previous eras or the same continuation?
Someone else can make the argument that Capone was made by the mafia and was told to follow the rules (ie ceremony, structure, things that make the mafia a mafia) either by Masseria upon making him or Maranzano recognizing him as rapresentante of Chicago. Certain ranks would have to fit with the national model. But I'd argue that ranks were utilized differently to the point where you can't view it from a traditional New York model. When you do, you get a misunderstanding. For whatever it's worth, the Boss was not the final authority and the underboss was usually a driver/aide. The capos are not leaders who can be demoted or killed like they can in NYC for not attending a party or offending the boss's sensitivity, instead they are semi-autonomous and had their own staff that ran these crews. Like Canada, it's just different.
This is disputed by local Chicago historians who argue that Capone didn't need any "mafia" badge to be who he was. Yes and No. Capone headed an organization that superseded the traditional North Side Mafia in both size and money. However they relied on the traditional Sicilian Mafia and the political ties they maintained. This isn't black and white, both groups had corrupt politicians but the Sicilians were better placed and commanded the Unione Siciliana, which was a Sicilian political/work union.
Capone getting made was like getting a Mafia Doctorate. It was a significant stature and expanded his already wide national contacts. People forget, Capone and the Sicilians were friendly until they weren't. Before this war, they mingled, went to social occasions and knew each other personally. But in the wide and vast criminal arena that is Chicago, the Sicilian Mafia was influential but just another factor. Capone was able to ride above all of that, conquer the beast that was the Chicago underworld (not just the Italian underworld) and remake it to what he say fit. He came up under Yale, and then allied with Torrio. He learned from some pretty significant figures. What exactly Capone did is contested. (Antiliar has some good opinions he may or may not want to share). But there is a missing 30 years of conclusive intel, it only becomes more clearer in 1960. And then begs the question, were the Giancana years different from the previous eras or the same continuation?
Someone else can make the argument that Capone was made by the mafia and was told to follow the rules (ie ceremony, structure, things that make the mafia a mafia) either by Masseria upon making him or Maranzano recognizing him as rapresentante of Chicago. Certain ranks would have to fit with the national model. But I'd argue that ranks were utilized differently to the point where you can't view it from a traditional New York model. When you do, you get a misunderstanding. For whatever it's worth, the Boss was not the final authority and the underboss was usually a driver/aide. The capos are not leaders who can be demoted or killed like they can in NYC for not attending a party or offending the boss's sensitivity, instead they are semi-autonomous and had their own staff that ran these crews. Like Canada, it's just different.
Re: The Outfit, Chicago vs Traditional LCN
rayray wrote:Or maybe it helped that Chicago had close ties to the Genovese's? I suppose my point is I wonder if there was tensions with these other cities that Chicago was not traditional LCN like the NE?
Back in the old days, the Outfit was one of the most powerful money making organization in the U.S. and because of that the other midwest crime organizations showed their loyalty and joined their ventures. The Chicago Outfit always had more vision than their counterparts on the midwest and the key link for that was the unholy alliance between the Italian gangsters and gangsters from other ethnicites. Even the most hard core Italians such ast the old New York mafia bosses respected that. For example one of the most respectable Chicago gangsters was Gus Alex. During the early 1960's, Alex received more respect from the NY families than Giancana. For example, Alex was very close to Richie the Boot in Newark. Obviousy there was some disagreement from the other Italian members but by the end of the day when they received their envelopes, it was all good. America is a nation which was formed by various ethnicites so it was natural for some crime organizations such as the Outfit to be formed in the same way. The Chicago Outfit was mostly formed by Italians born in the U.S. who grew up with other people from different ethnicites
Maybe Capone was made into the mafia but his organization was still diferent. When Ricca came to power(one of the rare guys that was not born in the U.S.), he was the one that made the top spots be reserved only for the Italians. But even when he was still alive, Claude Maddox was once the boss of the Cicero area for less than a year. When Ricca strepped back from the organization, Alex shared the boss position with Aiuppa for a short period.
Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God - Corinthians 6:9-10
Re: The Outfit, Chicago vs Traditional LCN
Would Capone be considered one of the earliest Neapolitan's made into LCN? What about Torrio? He was highly respected even after he moved to NYC in his retirement years, was he ever made or did he just carry made status through most of his criminal career?
**Interesting about the Boot being close to Gus Alex/Chicago, makes me really think about the guy and how diverse he was working with other nationalities more freely before becoming powerful enough to be absorbed into the Genovese's, it's like the Genovese's always understood the importance of diversity, know wonder why they took the Boot and were close to Chicago.
**Interesting about the Boot being close to Gus Alex/Chicago, makes me really think about the guy and how diverse he was working with other nationalities more freely before becoming powerful enough to be absorbed into the Genovese's, it's like the Genovese's always understood the importance of diversity, know wonder why they took the Boot and were close to Chicago.