Project Otremens Recordings

[Wiseguy]

^ That makes a lot more sense.

[B.]

This stuff right here is where I need a little clarification. Because it sounds just like " Torretesi" to me.
When you say Cattolicensi, is this just people from Cattolica Eraclea who immigrated? Or members of the Cattolica Eraclea FAMILY in Sicily, who went to NY?. Keep in mind the pm I sent you as far as my mindset on mafiosi in different territories.

It sounds like Torrettesi because it's a group of compaesani but all it means is the Ribera Family was partnered with mafia figures from Cattolica Eraclea in Canada. It could refer to anyone with heritage from there and he didn't say anything to clarify who it was. It could be members of the Cattolica Family, members made into another group (Venezuela, Bonannos, etc.), non-members, or a combination.

Papalia was murdered at the end of May 1997. I’m not in the least surprised that Project Scopa revealed he was paying actual tribute to Rizzuto and that the unmade Pat and Angelo Musitano circumvented Papalia and paid tribute directly to Rizzuto prior to Papalia’s murder.

My opinion is based upon the following, with points 2, 3, and 4 being arguments for gambling partnerships in a post-Papalia world:

1. the actual investments in physical properties that Vito Rizzuto and the Caruana-Cuntrera group made in Ontario from 1995 onward — at least a couple of these investments were mediated by Panepinto

2. the revelation that there were about 15 men who Rizzuto met with in October 22 and 23, 1997, not just Musitano and Panepinto (we have Paul Manning to thank for disclosing Project Scopa documents)

3. the sophisticated-at-the-time video-gambling ring headed by Rizzuto that operated in Montreal, Toronto/GTA, Hamilton, and Ottawa between 1998 and at least 2002 by using satellite signals he arranged to come via Toronto, New York, and Israel (the ring seemed to continue to operate in 2003 — Pino Avignone faced a gaming-house charge for operating VLTs from Monello’s Sports Bar on Barton St. E.; he mentioned to an undercover cop in the sports club that permission would be needed from Cosimo Commisso to install VLTs in Ottawa; incidentally, Avignone was acquitted in 2004)

4. the January 2001 meeting that Rizzuto called at a Toronto restaurant, where the guests included members of the ’ndrangheta, the Gambino Family, the Buffalo Family, and local Sicilian guys.

Is there a reason we posters have a hard time believing, after our initial shock, that Rizzuto and Papalia had this tribute arrangement?

I'm not having a difficult time believing there was a financial relationship where money went to Rizzuto and that Rizzuto's faction played a dominant role in the operation, rather I'm wondering if it was "tribute" or a return on investment. It's semantics to some degree but the words imply two different things. You mentioned the Rizzutos and Caruana-Cuntreras making investments in Ontario and Rizzuto heading an interprovincial gambling ring, which implies it was ROI he was receiving from Ontario-based members.

"Tribute" to me would imply the Musitanos or Papalia were paying Rizzuto simply out of respect, fealty, or fear, whereas if they were giving him profits from their involvement in an operation Rizzuto organized and invested in, that is ROI.

So for me the question isn't about money changing hands and profits going to Rizzuto, it's about the nature of the business arrangement.

[B.]

The Bonnanos and no tribute thing kinda baffles me.
Like, fuck tribute, when Tomasulos dad died, didn't Vitale take the whole thing?

Montagna get to Canada, the FIRST thing he starts doing it seems is demanding tribute...I dunno....

Tomasulo's father ran a gambling operation licensed by the Family. When he died, it went back to the Family but his son (an associate) refused and made threatening remarks about Vitale so they killed him. The operation belonged to the Bonanno Family, not the Tomasulo blood family.

When Montagna went to Montreal, he apparently attempted to control businesses that were "with" the Montreal crew and demanded more money. This makes sense from his POV, as he was now the leader of the Montreal faction even though he made a serious error in judgment.

NYC did receive tribute from Montreal as part of the Family-wide Christmas arrangement, which Cicale said was still being collected by Montagna a few years before he moved there. Some of this money could have come from the centralized sportsbook even if NYC-based Bonanno members weren't partners.

--

There was an interesting arrangement when George Fresolone of the Philly Family cooperated where he partnered with the Gambino Family in a gambling operation and they discussed the different percentages they'd receive (which are not always equal depending on who invested more, managed the operation, etc.). The Gambino members insisted on an extra percentage (might have been 5%, can't remember) that would go direct to John Gotti as tribute. Fresolone said this was completely out of turn and normally Philly would have rejected it but he went along with it because he was cooperating and just wanted to make a case against the guys.

[antimafia]

We already know that the Figliomenis were involved in Platinum from the start, whose setup I date to 2003. Peter Scarcella and a brother of his were also involved in Platinum. So was former Hells Paris Christoforou, who was close to Peretz — you’ll recall that Christoforou punched out fellow inmate Peter Scarcella when the two saw themselves go to prison in relation to the 2004 California Sandwiches shooting fiasco; that Christoforou and Scarcella survived a murder attempt in the west end of Toronto a number of years after they got out.

that Christoforou and *Peretz

[johnny_scootch]

Nick Sr. had temporarily transferred from the Bonanno Family to the Siculiana / Venezuela cosca in the 1970s; there’s good reason to believe that Vito Rizzuto, Paolo Renda, and Giuseppe Lo Presti were first inducted into this cosca before transferring to the Bonanno Family, but I digress).

If you don’t mind me asking, what’s the good reason?

[antimafia]

Nick Sr. had temporarily transferred from the Bonanno Family to the Siculiana / Venezuela cosca in the 1970s; there’s good reason to believe that Vito Rizzuto, Paolo Renda, and Giuseppe Lo Presti were first inducted into this cosca before transferring to the Bonanno Family, but I digress).

If you don’t mind me asking, what’s the good reason?

There's more than one reason. Here's one, and it didn't come to light to we mobwatchers till we encountered this quote in Edwards and Nicaso's Business or Blood book (p. 26, para. 2):

https://books.google.ca/books?id=zBbTCw ... me&f=false

Please read the page before it too, i.e., p. 25.

If you and others -- especially OcSleeper -- don't think I'd be derailing the thread by discussing this further, I could provide the other support later on, which would include excerpts from Lamothe and Nicaso's Bloodlines book (Alfonso Caruana introduced Nick Rizzuto Sr. and son Vito in an unusual way to Camorra member Oreste Pagano), from one or two of †Pierre de Champlain's books, from The Sixth Family (a couple of NYC Bonannos differ -- they weren't in conversation -- about when they knew Vito to be made, and one of these New Yorkers was in Montreal at the time), and maybe from some Italian-language articles in which Gennaro Scaletta speaks of his time in Venezuela with Nick Rizzuto Sr. and Nick's family. I could also post an example or two of how we interpret the English-language transcript in which an organized-crime figure talks -- in Italian -- of another figure being under someone or under a particular Family's banner.

Scaletta was from Montreal but first met with Nick Sr. and family in Venezuela in 1977. Scaletta also spent 5 years in a Venezuelan jail with Nick Sr., Federico Del Peschio (killed in Montreal in 2009 behind his restaurant, La Cantina ), and Antonio Mongiovì (son-in-law of Paolo Cuntrera). Scaletta would later become a collaboratore di giustizia.

I won't post about this again till I see what the general feeling is. If this is considered off topic, I'll comply with OcSleepers's wishes and the general consensus by not posting. But I won't start another topic about this, nor will I add the research to an existing one.

[TommyNoto]

Was it tribute or was Vito Rizzuto an investor?

With this subject it's very easy to confuse return on investment for tribute which can appear the same from the outside. I define tribute as receiving money out of respect/status/rank without providing capital or resources of some kind.

What makes it murkier is that often people are secret investors though with an illegal operation that distinction doesn't matter.

The sportsbooks to me are by far the most mysterious development up there.

It's the main thing I find implausible in the Scoppa book. Vito owing Bertolo ( Or was it Gervasi? I confuse the 2 ....) money on a sportsbook.

I can't reconcile Vito being the point man for a massive gambling expansion in Ontario, and owing money to the local Montreal book. I also don't understand why or how the sportsbook for the Montreal organization became consolidated into one ledger. And how are there NO American-Bonnano shareholders? Like there's Bikers in there but no New Yorkers? It's like... what happened?

With only 1 family and 1 city (Rizzuto / Montreal) it makes sense to consolidate the book as there is no competition and you can run it as a monopoly to maximize profits .

With so little competition I wonder who they lay bets off to ? Was that mentioned in the book ? As that’s a key service partnership that could answer some questions on who worked with who. It’s possible that could be NY books which could explain nyc still being involved up north

This could also extend to the off shore book mngt which is again big business and one NYC is known to excel at and be major players

No need for NYC to get a share of the platinum book if they are able to service that huge book

[CabriniGreen]

Nick Sr. had temporarily transferred from the Bonanno Family to the Siculiana / Venezuela cosca in the 1970s; there’s good reason to believe that Vito Rizzuto, Paolo Renda, and Giuseppe Lo Presti were first inducted into this cosca before transferring to the Bonanno Family, but I digress).

If you don’t mind me asking, what’s the good reason?

There's more than one reason. Here's one, and it didn't come to light to we mobwatchers till we encountered this quote in Edwards and Nicaso's Business or Blood book (p. 26, para. 2):

https://books.google.ca/books?id=zBbTCw ... me&f=false

Please read the page before it too, i.e., p. 25.

If you and others -- especially OcSleeper -- don't think I'd be derailing the thread by discussing this further, I could provide the other support later on, which would include excerpts from Lamothe and Nicaso's Bloodlines book (Alfonso Caruana introduced Nick Rizzuto Sr. and son Vito in an unusual way to Camorra member Oreste Pagano), from one or two of †Pierre de Champlain's books, from The Sixth Family (a couple of NYC Bonannos differ -- they weren't in conversation -- about when they knew Vito to be made, and one of these New Yorkers was in Montreal at the time), and maybe from some Italian-language articles in which Gennaro Scaletta speaks of his time in Venezuela with Nick Rizzuto Sr. and Nick's family. I could also post an example or two of how we interpret the English-language transcript in which an organized-crime figure talks -- in Italian -- of another figure being under someone or under a particular Family's banner.

Scaletta was from Montreal but first met with Nick Sr. and family in Venezuela in 1977. Scaletta also spent 5 years in a Venezuelan jail with Nick Sr., Federico Del Peschio (killed in Montreal in 2009 behind his restaurant, La Cantina ), and Antonio Mongiovì (son-in-law of Paolo Cuntrera). Scaletta would later become a collaboratore di giustizia.

I won't post about this again till I see what the general feeling is. If this is considered off topic, I'll comply with OcSleepers's wishes and the general consensus by not posting. But I won't start another topic about this, nor will I add the research to an existing one.

The general feeling over here is....KEEP IT COMING MY MAN!!

But seriously, I'm sure I don't just speak for myself when I saw we are all eyes and ears..

[johnny_scootch]

The general feeling over here is....KEEP IT COMING MY MAN!!

Ditto

[Cheech]

The general feeling over here is....KEEP IT COMING MY MAN!!

Ditto

same.

[CabriniGreen]

The Inside the Montreal Mafia book quotes Andrew Scoppa as saying that Paolo Gervasi originally owned the Book; that Vito Rizzuto borrowed $2 million in cash from Gervasi during the time Vito’s father was in Venezuela (which I assume is the time from Nick Sr.’s imprisonment there from 1988 to 1993, not when Nick Sr. had temporarily transferred from the Bonanno Family to the Siculiana / Venezuela cosca in the 1970s; there’s good reason to believe that Vito Rizzuto, Paolo Renda, and Giuseppe Lo Presti were first inducted into this cosca before transferring to the Bonanno Family, but I digress).

You think it to be Siciliana and not Cattolica Eraclea? His father- in- law's family? Both were under the same madamento, and overseen by Giuseppe Settecasi. I saw one of the Canadian authors once refer to them as the Rizzuto/Manno clan. I thought Settecasi basically gave Nick free reign to recruit from Agrigento.

I've always looked at Canada as duplicating this dynamic, I think a Caruana was elected Capo- Madamento, they would have technically been higher up than Rizzuto in Cattolica Eraclea. It's one of the things I do believe in the Scoppa book, that Vito defferred to Alfonso Caruana.

[motorfab]

You think it to be Siciliana and not Cattolica Eraclea? His father- in- law's family? Both were under the same madamento, and overseen by Giuseppe Settecasi. I saw one of the Canadian authors once refer to them as the Rizzuto/Manno clan. I thought Settecasi basically gave Nick free reign to recruit from Agrigento.

I've always looked at Canada as duplicating this dynamic, I think a Caruana was elected Capo- Madamento, they would have technically been higher up than Rizzuto in Cattolica Eraclea. It's one of the things I do believe in the Scoppa book, that Vito defferred to Alfonso Caruana.

Some observations :

-I'm not sure that Siculiana & Cattolica Eraclea were part of the same mandamento, Siculiana seems to be part of the mandamento of Porto Empedocle & Cattolica Eraclea of that of Ribera (which does not prevent the 2 cosche from being very linked)

-I don't believe any Siculiana bosses have been capomandamento

-Despite the family link between Rizzuto married to Manno's daughter, Cattolica Eralea's boss was above all Manno, at least until 1968, so I'm not sure it's correct to speak of a Manno/Rizzuto clan (but it's not so important)

-I don't think the capoprovincia Settecasi gave Rizzuto the right to recruit people, because Rizzuto was under the authority of the Bonanno Family at least during this period (early 60s to 70s) and Settecasi seems to have respected the protocol for zips a lot at that time (just like Leonardo Caruana & Pietro Sciara who were on the same line). Which did not prevent Rizzuto from doing more business with the people of the province of Agrigento (Salemi, the Caruanas-Cuntreras and others) than with the Bonanno Crime Family

-Good point for Scoppa, if I remember correctly, he said that Vito Rizzuto had the utmost respect for Alfonso Caruana and he listened religiously to his every word

[CabriniGreen]

You think it to be Siciliana and not Cattolica Eraclea? His father- in- law's family? Both were under the same madamento, and overseen by Giuseppe Settecasi. I saw one of the Canadian authors once refer to them as the Rizzuto/Manno clan. I thought Settecasi basically gave Nick free reign to recruit from Agrigento.

I've always looked at Canada as duplicating this dynamic, I think a Caruana was elected Capo- Madamento, they would have technically been higher up than Rizzuto in Cattolica Eraclea. It's one of the things I do believe in the Scoppa book, that Vito defferred to Alfonso Caruana.

Some observations :

-I'm not sure that Siculiana & Cattolica Eraclea were part of the same mandamento, Siculiana seems to be part of the mandamento of Porto Empedocle & Cattolica Eraclea of that of Ribera (which does not prevent the 2 cosche from being very linked)

-I don't believe any Siculiana bosses have been capomandamento

-Despite the family link between Rizzuto married to Manno's daughter, Cattolica Eralea's boss was above all Manno, at least until 1968, so I'm not sure it's correct to speak of a Manno/Rizzuto clan (but it's not so important)

-I don't think the capoprovincia Settecasi gave Rizzuto the right to recruit people, because Rizzuto was under the authority of the Bonanno Family at least during this period (early 60s to 70s) and Settecasi seems to have respected the protocol for zips a lot at that time (just like Leonardo Caruana & Pietro Sciara who were on the same line). Which did not prevent Rizzuto from doing more business with the people of the province of Agrigento (Salemi, the Caruanas-Cuntreras and others) than with the Bonanno Crime Family

-Good point for Scoppa, if I remember correctly, he said that Vito Rizzuto had the utmost respect for Alfonso Caruana and he listened religiously to his every word

Was Leonardo elected? I remember it being a thing in the Sixth family. It was seen as a little controvertial because after being in Canada he was looked at almost like an outsider.

[CabriniGreen]

You think it to be Siciliana and not Cattolica Eraclea? His father- in- law's family? Both were under the same madamento, and overseen by Giuseppe Settecasi. I saw one of the Canadian authors once refer to them as the Rizzuto/Manno clan. I thought Settecasi basically gave Nick free reign to recruit from Agrigento.

I've always looked at Canada as duplicating this dynamic, I think a Caruana was elected Capo- Madamento, they would have technically been higher up than Rizzuto in Cattolica Eraclea. It's one of the things I do believe in the Scoppa book, that Vito defferred to Alfonso Caruana.

Some observations :

-I'm not sure that Siculiana & Cattolica Eraclea were part of the same mandamento, Siculiana seems to be part of the mandamento of Porto Empedocle & Cattolica Eraclea of that of Ribera (which does not prevent the 2 cosche from being very linked)

-I don't believe any Siculiana bosses have been capomandamento

-Despite the family link between Rizzuto married to Manno's daughter, Cattolica Eralea's boss was above all Manno, at least until 1968, so I'm not sure it's correct to speak of a Manno/Rizzuto clan (but it's not so important)

-I don't think the capoprovincia Settecasi gave Rizzuto the right to recruit people, because Rizzuto was under the authority of the Bonanno Family at least during this period (early 60s to 70s) and Settecasi seems to have respected the protocol for zips a lot at that time (just like Leonardo Caruana & Pietro Sciara who were on the same line). Which did not prevent Rizzuto from doing more business with the people of the province of Agrigento (Salemi, the Caruanas-Cuntreras and others) than with the Bonanno Crime Family

-Good point for Scoppa, if I remember correctly, he said that Vito Rizzuto had the utmost respect for Alfonso Caruana and he listened religiously to his every word

I probably confused Madamento with province. Settecasi was capo- provincia? Is that what it's called?

Siculiana being in the same madamento as Porto is kinda tantalizing.....

[motorfab]

Capo provincia is the common word used, but Calderone used the word "rappresentante", so I guess it's the correct word used by the "men of honor"

The leadership timeline for Siculiana is quite confusing because they were active in several places, but here is what I compiled:

-For the 40s I don't have specific names but Nicola Gentile and Giovanni (or Giuseppe, depend the source) are considered highly powerful figure from Siculiana.
-Giuseppe Caruana (1950's-197?). He moved to Brazil in 1957
-Leonardo Caruana (1973-1981). Moved to Montreal in 1968 and deported in 1973. I guess he runned things in Siculiana until his murder
-Pasquale Cuntrera (1981-1992). Moved to Brazil in 1957, then Montreal, then in Venezuela circa 1970. Boss of a cosca in Venezuela until his arrest
-Alfonso Caruana (1992-1998). Active in Montreal, Venezuela, Italy, London and Woodbridge until his arrest.
-Gerlando "Gigi" Caruana (1981-20??). Leonardo's son, he's listed as the boss of Siculiana and I suppose he runs the Family businesses since the murder of his father.

It's a very personal opinion, but I believe that the transfer of Nicolo in the Caruana-Cuntrera Clan during the 70s was not temporary but permanent and he was the representant of the Clan in Montreal with Agostino Cuntrera, Giovanni DiMora, Gerlando Caruana (Alfonso's brother) and some others

Good luck with that ^^