Sciascia and Montagna

[antimafia]

[snip]

The individuals in the upper echelon of the Montreal Mafia hierarchy who would have faced trial as a result of the Project Colisée arrests were told that an unnamed high-level witness was going to testify about his knowledge regarding the relationship between the New York Bonannos and the Montreal Mafia. Humphreys believes the Montrealers deduced the witness was Vitale; at some point thereafter, the accused decided to plead guilty.

I'm not sure why I mentioned that Adrian Humphreys had a theory that Nick Rizzuto Sr., Francesco Arcadi, Paolo Renda, Rocco Sollecito, Lorenzo Giordano, and Francesco del Balso suspected Vitale was the cooperating witness--I can't recall whether Humphreys came out with an article about this at some point after September 9, 2010.

Below are the relevant pages (screenshots) from the document; part of the second page offers the opinion that the lawyers for the six defendants may were able to review the information provided by the cooperating witness. By the way, was I wrong when I previously wrote the witness was unnamed?

US vs Vitale -- p 1.JPG

US vs Vitale -- p 2.JPG

US vs Vitale -- p 3.JPG

[OlBlueEyesClub]

The theory of Montagna attempting to come back into the game of sorts after Vito's incarceration is an interesting one. It makes a bit of sense.

[jimmyb]

I admit I'm not up to speed on the different Montreal threads, so I'm hoping you guys can help me understand a few things. I'm reading "Business or Blood" right now and trying to sort this out.

I always knew Raynald Desjardins was a big gangster and close to Rizzuto. Ok, but once he splits from Rizzuto, it sounds like Desjardins had his own organization. Most of the guys he's working with are Italian, some Sicilian, some Calabrese. So here's my question:
***Are we talking about made guys here? In other words, are made guys in Montreal taking orders from a non-Italian? That strikes me as unusual.

***Also, it seems like New York's attitude to Montagna was "out of sight out of mind." So was Montagna acting as a free agent or did the Bonanno Org sanction his moves in Canada? According to the authors, Montagna was telling people he could bring reinforcements up from NY. Do you guys think there was any truth to that? Did he even have that kind of pull anymore?

Thanks

[Lupara]

I admit I'm not up to speed on the different Montreal threads, so I'm hoping you guys can help me understand a few things. I'm reading "Business or Blood" right now and trying to sort this out.

I always knew Raynald Desjardins was a big gangster and close to Rizzuto. Ok, but once he splits from Rizzuto, it sounds like Desjardins had his own organization. Most of the guys he's working with are Italian, some Sicilian, some Calabrese. So here's my question:
***Are we talking about made guys here? In other words, are made guys in Montreal taking orders from a non-Italian? That strikes me as unusual.

I don't think that any of the guys working for him were made members. It just doesn't work like that. Made members in Montreal are capos in their own right and some are in charge of crews of several dozen people. Desjardins was significant because, even though not a made member, had managed to rise to equal status because of his connections and leadership capabilities. He had amasssed a large following and was in a position to succesfully challenge Montagna's attempt to take over the local Mafia. He really is one of a kind, but it also needs to be said that he probably wouldn't be were he was without Di Maulo's support. I think that in a way Desjardins can be compared to Meyer Lansky because he was an outsider who wasn't really an outsider.

***Also, it seems like New York's attitude to Montagna was "out of sight out of mind." So was Montagna acting as a free agent or did the Bonanno Org sanction his moves in Canada? According to the authors, Montagna was telling people he could bring reinforcements up from NY. Do you guys think there was any truth to that? Did he even have that kind of pull anymore?

I think that it was only natural for the Bonannos to sanction Montagna's bid to take over the Montreal Mafia because it would've been to their advantage. But it appears that their so called support was very limited. There are no reports of people coming over from New York, but in Montreal people sided with him.

[jimmyb]

I admit I'm not up to speed on the different Montreal threads, so I'm hoping you guys can help me understand a few things. I'm reading "Business or Blood" right now and trying to sort this out.

I always knew Raynald Desjardins was a big gangster and close to Rizzuto. Ok, but once he splits from Rizzuto, it sounds like Desjardins had his own organization. Most of the guys he's working with are Italian, some Sicilian, some Calabrese. So here's my question:
***Are we talking about made guys here? In other words, are made guys in Montreal taking orders from a non-Italian? That strikes me as unusual.

I don't think that any of the guys working for him were made members. It just doesn't work like that. Made members in Montreal are capos in their own right and some are in charge of crews of several dozen people. Desjardins was significant because, even though not a made member, had managed to rise to equal status because of his connections and leadership capabilities. He had amasssed a large following and was in a position to succesfully challenge Montagna's attempt to take over the local Mafia. He really is one of a kind, but it also needs to be said that he probably wouldn't be were he was without Di Maulo's support. I think that in a way Desjardins can be compared to Meyer Lansky because he was an outsider who wasn't really an outsider.

***Also, it seems like New York's attitude to Montagna was "out of sight out of mind." So was Montagna acting as a free agent or did the Bonanno Org sanction his moves in Canada? According to the authors, Montagna was telling people he could bring reinforcements up from NY. Do you guys think there was any truth to that? Did he even have that kind of pull anymore?

I think that it was only natural for the Bonannos to sanction Montagna's bid to take over the Montreal Mafia because it would've been to their advantage. But it appears that their so called support was very limited. There are no reports of people coming over from New York, but in Montreal people sided with him.

Thanks Lupara!

[Lupara]

I admit I'm not up to speed on the different Montreal threads, so I'm hoping you guys can help me understand a few things. I'm reading "Business or Blood" right now and trying to sort this out.

I always knew Raynald Desjardins was a big gangster and close to Rizzuto. Ok, but once he splits from Rizzuto, it sounds like Desjardins had his own organization. Most of the guys he's working with are Italian, some Sicilian, some Calabrese. So here's my question:
***Are we talking about made guys here? In other words, are made guys in Montreal taking orders from a non-Italian? That strikes me as unusual.

I don't think that any of the guys working for him were made members. It just doesn't work like that. Made members in Montreal are capos in their own right and some are in charge of crews of several dozen people. Desjardins was significant because, even though not a made member, had managed to rise to equal status because of his connections and leadership capabilities. He had amasssed a large following and was in a position to succesfully challenge Montagna's attempt to take over the local Mafia. He really is one of a kind, but it also needs to be said that he probably wouldn't be were he was without Di Maulo's support. I think that in a way Desjardins can be compared to Meyer Lansky because he was an outsider who wasn't really an outsider.

***Also, it seems like New York's attitude to Montagna was "out of sight out of mind." So was Montagna acting as a free agent or did the Bonanno Org sanction his moves in Canada? According to the authors, Montagna was telling people he could bring reinforcements up from NY. Do you guys think there was any truth to that? Did he even have that kind of pull anymore?

I think that it was only natural for the Bonannos to sanction Montagna's bid to take over the Montreal Mafia because it would've been to their advantage. But it appears that their so called support was very limited. There are no reports of people coming over from New York, but in Montreal people sided with him.

Thanks Lupara!

You're welcome.

[dixiemafia]

I agree with Lupara that Montagna's talk about getting reinforcements was just him selling wolf tickets to try and force them into following him. He definitely sold them short thinking his ex-status would help him up there.

[rayray]

There's no way some Bonanno's from NY would go to Canada to be involved in some war, they have their own troubles right here in the States to worry about.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Which is exactly what I was saying earlier about Montagna and the speculation of him being the "driving force" behind the push on the Rizzutos. But hey, whatever, it's cool.



He may have been one of the guys to initiate it, but as far as NY goes, he didn't have the power or the resources to actually be a threat. It was his "woofing" that got the guys that did to back him in the first place, in my opinion. And through those other guys, like maybe Magi, Desjardin's, De Vito & some Ontario guys, he then had the reach to actually make his moves. And once those links fell apart, he was dead in the water, no pun intended.

[Lupara]

Which is exactly what I was saying earlier about Montagna and the speculation of him being the "driving force" behind the push on the Rizzutos. But hey, whatever, it's cool.



He may have been one of the guys to initiate it, but as far as NY goes, he didn't have the power or the resources to actually be a threat. It was his "woofing" that got the guys that did to back him in the first place, in my opinion. And through those other guys, like maybe Magi, Desjardin's, De Vito & some Ontario guys, he then had the reach to actually make his moves. And once those links fell apart, he was dead in the water, no pun intended.

Power always derives from the people that support you. What happened to Montagna also happened to Nick Rizzuto, Di Maulo and De Vito. Once your allies abandon you or are killed power fades away and you become vulnarable. In the Mafia, that usually means a death sentence.

[Angelo Santino]

I'm still curious about Juan Ramon Fernandez claiming to be a made guy when he went to Sicily. It's easy to brush it off as him lying but something to consider is that Vito was still alive, this wasn't Natale claiming something about a long dead Bruno. Eventually, this would have been easily solved by contacting Vito in some way to confirm or deny. So what was the endgame?

Montreal is very interesting, alot of people including me have been proven wrong and surprised by certain things.

[toto]

He wasn't made in to Cosa Nostra but it could be Vito Rizzuto was making some kind of a new secret sect and it would accept guys of other nationalities. Like a child it must be educated and reared until it matures and then the adult follows his own path and so the same way such a sect will need guidance and control until it matures and then it will go its own way. Perhaps it was Rizzuto gathering forces maybe against what he saw as the threat from what we might call the group of John Gambino in New York and Toronto.

At the least this group gave Salvatore Montagna a green light to move in Montreal. They wanted Rizzuto out out of the way probably because he was taking part of all drug trafficking that even came neat his territory.

[Angelo Santino]

He wasn't made in to Cosa Nostra but it could be Vito Rizzuto was making some kind of a new secret sect and it would accept guys of other nationalities. Like a child it must be educated and reared until it matures and then the adult follows his own path and so the same way such a sect will need guidance and control until it matures and then it will go its own way. Perhaps it was Rizzuto gathering forces maybe against what he saw as the threat from what we might call the group of John Gambino in New York and Toronto.

At the least this group gave Salvatore Montagna a green light to move in Montreal. They wanted Rizzuto out out of the way probably because he was taking part of all drug trafficking that even came neat his territory.

Still doesn't explain the question I raised: what was his endgame? Did he think no one would ask Vito?

Of course Sicily would not recognize him. First, he went directly to Palermo. For us Mob historian buffs, we can easily state that his connections (let's say he WAS made) would have been social and familial and that would have linked him to C.E., Sicily. That would have involved being introduced and vouched for by 3rd party members who would then vouch his status in Palermo. This is mafia etiquette, it's on a one-on-one basis, either "friend of ours" or "stessa cosa" to an intricate question and answer session in the 1900's, that's never changed. Unless you're John Veasey, one does not introduce himself as a made guy.

Respectfully, I don't see Vito creating a secret sect, his organization was a new world organization and thus relied on French Canadian Desjardins and Spanish Fernandez. Sicilian (or even other Italian criminal cells) don't operate like that, the 1910's are long over. They make connections and influence, they rarely "take over" anything. The Rizzutos appear not to have been "set in stone" as previously thought. Instead it appears they "held things together" by making various alliances with local underworld players. If you disagree, let's hear it.

What gave Fernandez the cajones to try and pass himself off as a stessa cosa in Sicily? I don't think anyone can answer with definity. And what gave Desjardin the thought that he could "take over" a mafia crew despite being non-Italian and not-made. I'd love to hear thoughts on this though all around. This is interesting shit.

[toto]

He's criminal. Those guys have no integrity. Or maybe Rizzuto did a ceremony with him to trick him for some reason. Its not as if the ceremony and symbols and oaths are secret. Nevertheless, he will never be recognized and if there was a problem for Rizzuto about it he would just say Fernandez is lying. However, it could also be used against Rizzuto by somebody wanting to make a move which is possibly why he wouldn't do such a thing.

[Angelo Santino]

He's criminal. Those guys have no integrity. Or maybe Rizzuto did a ceremony with him to trick him for some reason. Its not as if the ceremony and symbols and oaths are secret. Nevertheless, he will never be recognized and if there was a problem for Rizzuto about it he would just say Fernandez is lying. However, it could also be used against Rizzuto by somebody wanting to make a move which is possibly why he wouldn't do such a thing.

Yes, but I've never heard about them promising to make outsiders just to kill them. It's possible (is it?) that Rizzuto told Fernandez that he's made and sent him to Sicily to be killed, similar to LA making Bomp consigliere in the 70's so they could kill him. We can't rule that out. But to put out a fake ceremony? That's only been done in the 90's in Cleveland when the FBI posed as NYC wiseguys and made a black guy and then indicted him.

It just seems that Montreal's connections extended outside of the Italian colony, they made alliances with the local criminals (who weren't connected to a Sicilian Honored Society aka the Mafia) and they became their own New-World Crew, composed of made guys and non-members forming a vast and powerful ring. This is what made the Montreal Crew/decina/Family so influential. So much so that Desjardin and Fernandez believed enough they were a part of "it" to lay claim over it. Think a Montreal version of the Chicago Outfit: an inner circle of made guys, and influential underworld members every bit as influential in the Outfit as some of the made guys themselves.

And in essence, that's what any mafia organization does. Be it in Palermo or America: they mingle. The idea that they only deal with Sicilians or Italians is a myth. Some members might prefer that for themselves, but most of your "break through" mafiosi like Al Capone, Luciano, Costello, to Gotti and any Chicago leader all had vast contacts that extended outside of the mafia/cosa nostra network. I imagine the same is so with influential leaders in Sicily.

I think we are coming to see Cosa Nostra as part of the criminal element rather than dominating it. Desjardin and Fernandez would not have had the clout they had if not for the Rizzutos but the same can be said in reverse. Desjardin and Fernandez, buttoned or not, are just as part of the Montreal organization as anyone else when we look at it objectively. Labeling "made guys" as the only viable Mafia force, is subtracting alot of important elements that make up the force of the mafia epidemic.

Toto or Lupara and other Canadian experts shoot me down if there's anything you disagree with. I'm open.