antimafia wrote:Based on my September 17, 2011 post on the Real Deal, part of which I've quoted below, the poster on the American Mafia Crime Board would have made the comments about New York licence plates and New Yorkers in 2005 or 2006.
6. Four theories were raised in a July 2010 article by organized-crime writer Pierre de Champlain about who wanted to decimate the Rizzuto clan. The fourth was that certain members of the Montreal Mafia wanted not only to clean house, but to dislodge the Rizzuto leadership and to re-establish ties with the Bonanno Family. Since, like many of you, I came to accept uncritically that the Rizzutos broke off from the Bonannos after the murder of Sciascia in 1998, I naturally questioned why Montreal Mafia members would want to relinquish their autonomy and turn back the clock to a time when they were (well-heeled) serfs indebted to their American masters. More recently though, I have been wondering what the extent of the break was. Sal Vitale believes the tribute from Montreal stopped in 1998 or 1999, but he isn't sure whether the traditional arrangement continued after that. About five or six years ago, on the American Mafia forum, one poster from Montreal mentioned recently seeing cars with New York licence plates in the parking lot of the Club Social Consenza, the Rizzuto headquarters, as well as hearing individuals speaking with some type of New York accent.
I provided a longer quote than I needed to because I very often am embarrassed at how in the past 1) I presented my opinions on a lot of these topics, and 2) I presented as "facts" what are actually opinions.
I wish I had taken a screen shot of the American Mafia poster's comments back in 2005 or 2006. I can't remember when Porrello switched from americanmafia.com to americanmafia2.com for the site of the new board. Back in 2005 and 2006, I may not have even been a member of the first board. The poster did not appear to me to be a regular poster--even though I may not have been a board member I lurked quite a bit. I remember laughing when the poster had written something along the lines of the New York guys talking funny; made me wonder whether he had ever heard a New York accent while watching a movie or a TV program.
Here is the link to Pierre de Champlain's French-language article from July 6, 2010:
Business or Blood states that a representative of the Bonanno family was seen in Montreal in 2005, shortly after the murder of Giovanni Bertolo. This may very likely be the same situation that this poster described seeing.
Thanks for linking to that article of Pierre de Champlain.
antimafia wrote:Based on my September 17, 2011 post on the Real Deal, part of which I've quoted below, the poster on the American Mafia Crime Board would have made the comments about New York licence plates and New Yorkers in 2005 or 2006.
6. Four theories were raised in a July 2010 article by organized-crime writer Pierre de Champlain about who wanted to decimate the Rizzuto clan. The fourth was that certain members of the Montreal Mafia wanted not only to clean house, but to dislodge the Rizzuto leadership and to re-establish ties with the Bonanno Family. Since, like many of you, I came to accept uncritically that the Rizzutos broke off from the Bonannos after the murder of Sciascia in 1998, I naturally questioned why Montreal Mafia members would want to relinquish their autonomy and turn back the clock to a time when they were (well-heeled) serfs indebted to their American masters. More recently though, I have been wondering what the extent of the break was. Sal Vitale believes the tribute from Montreal stopped in 1998 or 1999, but he isn't sure whether the traditional arrangement continued after that. About five or six years ago, on the American Mafia forum, one poster from Montreal mentioned recently seeing cars with New York licence plates in the parking lot of the Club Social Consenza, the Rizzuto headquarters, as well as hearing individuals speaking with some type of New York accent.
I provided a longer quote than I needed to because I very often am embarrassed at how in the past 1) I presented my opinions on a lot of these topics, and 2) I presented as "facts" what are actually opinions.
I wish I had taken a screen shot of the American Mafia poster's comments back in 2005 or 2006. I can't remember when Porrello switched from americanmafia.com to americanmafia2.com for the site of the new board. Back in 2005 and 2006, I may not have even been a member of the first board. The poster did not appear to me to be a regular poster--even though I may not have been a board member I lurked quite a bit. I remember laughing when the poster had written something along the lines of the New York guys talking funny; made me wonder whether he had ever heard a New York accent while watching a movie or a TV program.
Here is the link to Pierre de Champlain's French-language article from July 6, 2010:
Business or Blood states that a representative of the Bonanno family was seen in Montreal in 2005, shortly after the murder of Giovanni Bertolo. This may very likely be the same situation that this poster described seeing.
Thanks for linking to that article of Pierre de Champlain.
Cicale says that when he was in jail with Baldo Amato, Amato told him about Montagna's trip to Montreal where he requested 100k tribute. It's not clear on the timeline and whether this was something that happened earlier or not, though. Depends also on if it was Vito himself who met with Montagna, as Vito would have been jailed himself around this time. Not sure how well that would match up with 2005, so it is possible there could have been multiple visits from nY.
A random AmericanMafia post, not the most credible source, but the way you described it doesn't sound over the top or anything.
JD mentioned a wiretap of Anthony Urso from December 2003 where he references the members in Montreal. Curious what that's about -- could be another indicator aside from Cicale that Urso had contact and/or did receive tribute from them.
And just to be clear about what Vitale says about paying tribute, and this comes straight from the pages of the Sixth Family, is that the last time he was "in their presence when they brought money down" was in 1998 or 1999, but he said, in the book's words, "Montreal might have continued with the traditional tribute arrangement but he had no evidence of this and could not be sure." (edit: I see that Antimafia quoted this from his 2010 post he shared, too)
Re-reading these bits, there are also a lot of assumptions and speculation on the part of the authors, who I should add again I greatly respect as researchers. For every fact they cite, though, they filter it through their own "Sixth Family" narrative. There are a bunch of paragraphs about how Vitale and Massino didn't know the Montreal group had inducted up to 20 guys and how this goes against the protocol of passing a list around and getting approval from the bosses, how this indicates that they were snubbing New York and breaking off, but I can just as well bring up the report from the 1960s about the Nonanno administration passing word to Cotroni to handle his own administration. It's not as if the NY leaders would have any clue who the upcoming associates are in Montreal, anyway. This indicates to me that it wasn't Montreal who was changing the game, but Massino and Vitale not knowing/understanding the arrangement that had been set up almost 40 years earlier. Here's my own speculation: maybe Rastelli (who had once spent time hiding out in Montreal), with all of his legal troubles, didn't sit Joe Massino down and remember to tell him how Montreal handles its affairs? Who knows.
Last edited by B. on Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:23 pm, edited 4 times in total.
"When one considers that a crew of Bonanno soldiers usually numbered fewer than ten soldiers...it must have seemed like a fool's offer to Vito, who commanded twice as many made Bonanno soldiers in Canada and perhaps hundreds of made men in the Sicilian tradition carrying the Sixth Family's influence throughout the world."
Yeah, perhaps. That is some grandiose bullshit right there.
First of all they "must" be psychic since they're capable of knowing what the secretive and clannish Vito Rizzuto "must" be thinking in a high-level meeting with Vitale. Second, where do they get their information about "hundreds of made men in the Sicilian tradition" carrying the "Sixth Family's influence" throughout the world?
They aren't saying there are hundreds of associates carrying their influence, but hundreds of made Sicilians. Without giving any source, too. Is that credible to anyone here at this point? You can't even say the average Sicilian mafia family in goddamn Sicily itself has hundreds of made men around the world.
It's been brought up before whenever this subject comes up but there was that conversation Rizzuto supposedly had with somebody in the Bonanno family where he said he didn't recognize Montagna as his boss. Now this was when Montagna was acting boss of the family in NY before he was deported and long after the Sciascia murder and break between the two groups.
While not making too much of one statement, at the very least it shows the connection was not altogether broken and Rizzuto was still in contact with some in the family. It also begs the question if they really had severed all formal ties before, why the need to point that out? One could even take the liberty of reading between the lines and inferring that Rizzuto may have recognized someone else he found more qualified.
B. wrote:You can't even say the average Sicilian mafia family in goddamn Sicily itself has hundreds of made men around the world.
Palermo: average family size 20
Trapani: average family size 50
Agrigento: average family size 20
According to Francesco Marino Mannoia in 1980 Santa Maria di Gesu family had about 120 members and he didn't know them all. That's probably the biggest any family in Sicily ever got.
B. wrote:You can't even say the average Sicilian mafia family in goddamn Sicily itself has hundreds of made men around the world.
Palermo: average family size 20
Trapani: average family size 50
Agrigento: average family size 20
According to Francesco Marino Mannoia in 1980 Santa Maria di Gesu family had about 120 members and he didn't know them all. That's probably the biggest any family in Sicily ever got.
Yeah some families are real small. At one point, DIA investigators estimated the Trapani cosca (Minore family) had around 7 members.
B. wrote:You can't even say the average Sicilian mafia family in goddamn Sicily itself has hundreds of made men around the world.
Palermo: average family size 20
Trapani: average family size 50
Agrigento: average family size 20
According to Francesco Marino Mannoia in 1980 Santa Maria di Gesu family had about 120 members and he didn't know them all. That's probably the biggest any family in Sicily ever got.
Yeah some families are real small. At one point, DIA investigators estimated the Trapani cosca (Minore family) had around 7 members.
Families weren't originally set up to be gargantuan armies. Capidecina were more like foreman rather than bosses over a crew/territory. There's reasons why this changed in the USA.
The number of members in a tiny town like Cattolica Eraclea is probably outnumbered by the ~20 in Montreal. Hell, probably most of that family's best prospects left for Montreal anyway.
Wiseguy -- was there a conversation where a Rizzuto told someone he didn't recognize Montagna as boss of the Bonannos? Or are you thinking of when Montagna told Nick Rizzuto to step aside and Rizzuto refused?
B. wrote:The number of members in a tiny town like Cattolica Eraclea is probably outnumbered by the ~20 in Montreal. Hell, probably most of that family's best prospects left for Montreal anyway.
Wiseguy -- was there a conversation where a Rizzuto told someone he didn't recognize Montagna as boss of the Bonannos? Or are you thinking of when Montagna told Nick Rizzuto to step aside and Rizzuto refused?
I thought that after Montagna got deported, Rizzuto the father said he would not recognize Montaga.
I think the Castellammaresi group in Williamsburgh probably outnumbered the group in CDC by 1920. Just my thinking based on everything else I've seen.
B. wrote:The number of members in a tiny town like Cattolica Eraclea is probably outnumbered by the ~20 in Montreal. Hell, probably most of that family's best prospects left for Montreal anyway.
Wiseguy -- was there a conversation where a Rizzuto told someone he didn't recognize Montagna as boss of the Bonannos? Or are you thinking of when Montagna told Nick Rizzuto to step aside and Rizzuto refused?
I thought that after Montagna got deported, Rizzuto the father said he would not recognize Montaga.
I think the Castellammaresi group in Williamsburgh probably outnumbered the group in CDC by 1920. Just my thinking based on everything else I've seen.
Oh yeah, I'd say any "New World' family was bigger by the 1920s (or even earlier) than their Sicilian counterparts.
I don't know what the original source is on the Montagna / Nick Rizzuto conversation. The gist of it seems to be that Montagna was looking to put himself in a leadership role and Rizzuto opposed it, but unless there is a recording of the conversation itself, I think we have to interpret it loosely. It wouldn't be surprising to hear that Montagna was still holding onto the idea of being acting boss and thought he could use that to start running the show there. Despite being a Montreal citizen with ties to Sciascia and probably a familiarity with the Montreal landscape, it's obvious why the dominant faction wouldn't take kindly to it. Still, one of the things I've theorized over the past few years is that some of Montagna's allies in Montreal joined him in part because he was "in the right" when it came to mob politics, along with their own personal agendas
Good thing there were those "hundreds of Sicilian made men" looking out for the Rizzuto's interests throughout the world!
If people looked at Philly the same way they looked at Montreal, you'd have people on here still trying to say Frankie Flowers D'Alfonso was the boss and "must" have been made.
B. wrote:The number of members in a tiny town like Cattolica Eraclea is probably outnumbered by the ~20 in Montreal. Hell, probably most of that family's best prospects left for Montreal anyway.
Wiseguy -- was there a conversation where a Rizzuto told someone he didn't recognize Montagna as boss of the Bonannos? Or are you thinking of when Montagna told Nick Rizzuto to step aside and Rizzuto refused?
I thought that after Montagna got deported, Rizzuto the father said he would not recognize Montaga.
I think the Castellammaresi group in Williamsburgh probably outnumbered the group in CDC by 1920. Just my thinking based on everything else I've seen.
Oh yeah, I'd say any "New World' family was bigger by the 1920s (or even earlier) than their Sicilian counterparts.
I don't know what the original source is on the Montagna / Nick Rizzuto conversation. The gist of it seems to be that Montagna was looking to put himself in a leadership role and Rizzuto opposed it, but unless there is a recording of the conversation itself, I think we have to interpret it loosely. It wouldn't be surprising to hear that Montagna was still holding onto the idea of being acting boss and thought he could use that to start running the show there. Despite being a Montreal citizen with ties to Sciascia and probably a familiarity with the Montreal landscape, it's obvious why the dominant faction wouldn't take kindly to it. Still, one of the things I've theorized over the past few years is that some of Montagna's allies in Montreal joined him in part because he was "in the right" when it came to mob politics, along with their own personal agendas
Good thing there were those "hundreds of Sicilian made men" looking out for the Rizzuto's interests throughout the world!
Interesting idea. I kinda have a different opinion. Allegedly upon deportation he allegedly told a guard "he is done." He could have been lying. There's that. But I don't think there is much of a way of him bossing NY from afar. New info has come out that he was a subservient to Mancuso, given his status as acting, I find it difficult believing NY would keep him as an AB. I see him eventually deciding to get back in on the action and perhaps tried to "wrestle" Montreal under his control. Using his former status of AB with a guarantee that he can "bring NY closer" ie: send more money. I think NY said: "do what you want but we can't officially back you." This is all fantasy and speculation from my end.
And as for some more fantasy. First, credit to Lupara for explaining/providing info that the son's murder WAS NOT a directly related. I say not directly because do you believe this businessman would have carried it out if Vito was still on the street? Obviously their status was weakened for such a hit to occur. Since it appears Montagna tried to "take over" Montreal, it probably didn't involve him pulling out two tommy guns and announcing "I'm takin' over!" with a stoogie in his mouth. It was more likely he was integrating himself into that world, feeling his way around and using his former NY status as his moxy in why he should be considered influential. That would most likely go outside the realm of made guys and into the pool of statused associates who despite being non-made, make the mafia what is is via connections to legitimate businessman and thus, have influence in some areas. If Montagna advertised that certain members could do better under him, I could see them going along. Outside of the Rizzuto blood family, how many other members loved them? We know that certain made members were formerly with the Cotronis. Some of them probably wouldn't have minded Rizzuto's being removed.
I guess what we can take from this, is that there was an opening for Montagna to do what he did. If he were deported in 85 would he have tried such a thing? This shows the greed of NY (they could have told Montagna to cease and desist at any time) combined with the factionalization of Montreal following Vito's incarceration. That's my take.
